Three stranded on Mt Hood

[onehotchili]

such a sad story.... prayers to all involved. both the families and SAR folks.

it brings back memories of a SAR that i was a part of in April 2000 where a friend of mine and his partner were killed on Mt. Shasta. i was actually supposed to go with him on that trip. after 5 days we had to call off the SAR when a helicopter crashed on the saddle between Shasta and Shastina (http://www.climbingmtshasta.org/news/news7.htm).

i was on the tarmac waiting for that helicopter to get me to bring me up to the saddle... when it crashed. luckily no one was seriously hurt in that helicopter crash, but it was a sad moment when i realized the search was done for my friend. some other friends of mine found his body several weeks later on Memorial Day so that they were able to bring closure for the family.

[kidwoo]

A seperated shoulder usually causes discomfort and pain, but use of the arm would be retained,

I couldn't use mine for a few days.

But I agree use would certainly be regained to some degree in a matter of days.........which put them into the storm unfortuately.

A dislocation, especially one that couldn't be popped back in would be far worse.

Either one creates a piss poor situation on the top of hood.

Keep wondering about the other two..............

[ptavv]

Are you sure you just had a separated shoulder? Usually you still maintain some use of your arm, it's just at a very reduced capacity. You may not be able to use it to descend, or hold your body weight with an ice axe, but it wouldn't inhibit use of the other arm, you would likely be able to move the injured arm to maintain balance, and you'd still be mobile (not really the case with a dislocation). Perhaps you had a sternoclavicular separation?

[GoldMember]

Depending on the degree of separation, you might have some use, albeit limited with a separation. A dislocation, like what I read it was is another problem altogether. I've separated both shoulders to varying degrees (frickin' 360's that only went 270..) and it can be painful and limit your range of motion, especially with anything where you need to reach above a horizontal plane. To try and climb, even with a separation would be very difficult since you need to lift your arm over your head. I can't even imagine trying with a dislocation. Who knows what other injuries there may have been to accompany the dislocation? Poor guy(s).....

[kidwoo]

Are you sure you just had a separated shoulder? Usually you still maintain use of your arm, it's just at a very reduced capacity. You may not be able to use it to descend, or hold your body weight with an ice axe, but it wouldn't inhibit use of the other arm, you would likely be able to move the arm to maintain balance, and you'd still be mobile (not really the case with a dislocation). Perhaps you had a sternoclavicular separation?

Both of mine were at least 2nd degree if not 3rd. I couldn't even let my arm hang, much less move it for balance. Lifting my arm was not only painful but just mechanically impossible. My most recent one I had to keep my arm slung for a few days before it could even support the weight. They really were just dead weight with pretty serious pain if not supported. But of course there's varying degrees to everything. I was using my arm from the first one in two weeks. Sternoclavicular is at the chest/upper ribcage. If you could see what my shoulders look like now, there's no question what happened. They're full, classic acromioclavicular separations with the raised outer collarbone hovering over my shoulders.

Skateboarding and biking, I've seen a bunch of separations and dislocations. Last year a buddy dislocated his shoulder so badly it took 3 doctors and a heap of muscle relaxers to get it back in place. I can see either injury severely wieghing on progress, but a bad dislocation would be much worse. You're right about that. I can't imagine the decisions that went on up there.

[ptavv]

I didn't doubt it, I was just speaking to what I've typically seen with shoulder separations.

Yeah, the decision making must have been brutal up there. There was a note by the Sheriff about side by side tracks indicating that at some point the climbers were climbing parallel to one another (at least two of them). Would jive with the theory that the dislocated shoulder immobilzed Kelly and he had to be assisted by his partners (perhaps with his arm over the shoulder of one of his partners, like leaving a football field).

It's a terrible tragedy

[TBS]

....I've seen a bunch of separations and dislocations. Last year a buddy dislocated his shoulder so badly it took 3 doctors and a heap of muscle relaxers to get it back in place. I can see either injury severely wieghing on progress, but a bad dislocation would be much worse. You're right about that. I can't imagine the decisions that went on up there.

I've put dislocated shoulders back in place for two different people. They had dislocated them before and everything was stretched for relatively easy reset. Even then, they were not up for any significant arm work for a couple of days.

If this was a first-time injury for Kelly James, it would have been hell to put back in place, especially in the cold and cramped conditions.
If he dislocated his shoulder before, I still doubt he could have downclimbed without a bunch of help.

If he had a shoulder separation - torn muscle & connective tissue - his arm would have been worthless - been there, done that.

Understandable why the other two left him there to get outside help. Those are the types of events that turn a well-planned trip into a shitstorm.

My heart goes out to the families....

[snowfunk]

I've dislocated my right shoulder many times in the bc before I had it surgically repaired. I've had a WFR course and they did teach us how to reduce dislocations of many of the body's joints, although I've heard they don't teach joint reductions anymore. I had my brother pop it back in within 2 minutes of it being dislocated and was able to ski the rest of the day including skins on/off that were very sticky. For me, the first dislocation was the easiest to relocate...the rest were more difficult.

Basically I used a reverse pitcher's motion: arm bent at 90degree, traction pulled from the elbow (this is key) and then arm/humorous guided posteriorly back into place. This was done on pretty steep slopes but we didn't need to be roped up or anything of that nature. The pain of a dislocation is pretty bad and use of the arm is not possible but once back in its like ...."ahhhh".

Sincere regards to the families.

Edited to add: Just sharing my experiences and I don't know the specific type or severity of dislocation experienced by the injured climber.

[smitchell333]

I get the feeling we'll never know the full story here.

Did they not have ropes? If they did you'd think a rapel/lower down the Pearly Gates might have been the key to the dilemna.

Not to armchair quarterback but I think one of the lessons we can learn is that you're really got to rely on self rescue as your best chance...that or get a Personal Locator Beacon or Satelite phone.

[ptavv]

They had rope(s). They found some cut rope attached to the anchor at the "second cave."

It seems to me that they couldn't locate the Pearly Gates entrance slot. From the summit it's not as easy to locate as it is often made to sound. Particularly if you're unfamiliar with the summit area and ascended a route on the opposite side of the mountain. They would have been seeing the Cooper Spur route for most of their ascent, so they would be visually acquainted with it, whereas the Pearly Gates would be something they had merely read about.

[Free Range Lobster]

Of all the technology talked about, nobody seemed to mention satellite phones. They've come down a lot in price, and you can rent them pretty reasonably for trips. Anybody know how they work in mountain conditions?

Batteries die very quickly in the cold while trying to get a sat fix.
And if the weather is bad/cloud cover is heavy they're hard to get a solid sat lock with.

[spook]

it is reckless to rush, to choose a "challenging route" while leaving one day to get down before a major storm, take no locator, have little to no familiarity with the mountain, etc., etc., etc.

you can deny it all you want, but three guys are dead, and dozens of others were put at risk to try to save them with absolutely no idea where the objects of their search were.

one day grace is not enough under circumstances that significantly increased the possibility of a catastrophic accident. if they had given themselves more time, the other two climbers would have stood a lot better chance.

apparently it was reasonable risk to many on this board.

[spook]

Pictures taken with a disposable camera found with James show two sets of tracks in the snow side by side, indicating one of the climbers may have been assisting one of his partners, presumably James, up the slope, Wampler said.

The photos, Wampler said, also confirmed fears that the men were traveling light and fast, lessening their chances of surviving for long in the harsh conditions that quickly overtook the mountain

Rescuers from the U.S. Air Force Reserve's 304th Rescue Squadron who found James in his snow cave said he had a thin lightweight waterproof sack, but no sleeping bag and no warm insulated jacket.

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/orego...210.xml&coll=7

[alembical]

it is reckless to rush, to choose a "challenging route" while leaving one day to get down before a major storm, take no locator, have little to no familiarity with the mountain, etc., etc., etc.

I am assuming that you don't climb and have real little familiarity with climbing. While it might seem easy to sit here and question their decisions based upon the known outcome, their decisions must be weighed with what was known at the time.

It is not reckless to rush on a winter climb... especially when you are in the PNW or mountains in general. You often don't get a long window of favorable climbing weather.

It is not reckeless to choose a "chanllenging route" while leaving one day to get down before a storm. It is winter in the PNW and the route should have taken 16 hours for them. Something went wrong. Who are you to judge them?

Reckless to not take a "locator"? You are kidding right? You ever even climb? Sure one would have helped.. or a satellite phone, or 3 cell phones, or a gps, etc... but that hardly makes not taking a "locator" reckless?

Reckless to climb a mountain you have never climbed before? Ridiculous. Why do think that they had no familiarity with the mountain? There are numerous climbers who spend most of their climbs on mountains they have never climbed before. Everything I have heard about these guys implies that they researched the climb and knew what they were getting into.

Yes, I think there is a whole lot that can be learned by this and hopefully that will help others in the future. But for you to call them "reckless" is ridiculous and insensitive. My thought go out to the friends and families of the climbers and all the top notch rescueres.

flame away, Alembical

[spook]

it's flaming to have a different opinion? i don't think so. i have climbed a few mountains in my time in the u.s. and the andes.

from the information i have gleaned in the media and numerous other discussion sites, they were not familiar with the area. that does not mean they did not know anything. it means they are not familiar with the mountain. i did not say it was reckless to climb a mountain one has never cliimbed. maybe you should try reading a little more closely while you're busy flaming. even the rescuers were left to look in areas where common mistakes by climbers unfamiliar with hood often lead them.

yes, i consider it reckless to not take a locator (or some other form of reliable communication) when you can rent one for $10 at the bottom of the mountain.

who am i to judge? i'm just like everybody else who pays the taxes that fund the rescue operation that cost a ton of money and put a lot of people at risk, and then listen to media coverage of the families' discussions of god.

ridiculous and insensitive to say it was reckless when three are dead now? i don't think so. i don't feel too much obligation to be sensitive to people who die by their own decisionmaking, especially if your definition of "sensitive" includes anything close to not making an honest evaluation of the situation.

if they had left two days or three days room for error rather than one, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

[jonesy]

These climbers didn't started out on their adventure planning on dying on that mountain. Regaurdless of weather the climbers were irresponsible or not in their decisions they paid with their lives. People make choices and sometimes it is the last one. At least they where in the Mountains. RIP.

[alembical]

it's flaming to have a different opinion? i don't think so. i have climbed a few mountains in my time in the u.s. and the andes.

from the information i have gleaned in the media and numerous other discussion sites, they were not familiar with the area. that does not mean they did not know anything. it means they are not familiar with the mountain. i did not say it was reckless to climb a mountain one has never cliimbed. maybe you should try reading a little more closely while you're busy flaming. even the rescuers were left to look in areas where common mistakes by climbers unfamiliar with hood often lead them.

yes, i consider it reckless to not take a locator (or some other form of reliable communication) when you can rent one for $10 at the bottom of the mountain.

who am i to judge? i'm just like everybody else who pays the taxes that fund the rescue operation that cost a ton of money and put a lot of people at risk, and then listen to media coverage of the families' discussions of god.

ridiculous and insensitive to say it was reckless when three are dead now? i don't think so. i don't feel too much obligation to be sensitive to people who die by their own decisionmaking, especially if your definition of "sensitive" includes anything close to not making an honest evaluation of the situation.

if they had left two days or three days room for error rather than one, we probably wouldn't be having this debate.

I don't really understand your post.

Maybe it was not even in response to mine. I never said anything about "flaming" other than "flame away" as I knew what your response would be. Saying something like, "maybe you should try reading a little more closely while you're busy flaming" in a post responding to a post you either barely read or just can not comprehend seems strange.

I would love to see a study on the number of "reckless" (by your definition) climbers who climb without a "locator". I know just because most do not use them, does not mean it is proper not to, but it is far from "reckless" to climb Hood with renting a "locator". Just because people died does not mean that they were "reckless."

Most people die as a result of thier own decision making, and to say that there is no need to be sensitive to them seems quite different than my feelings on the matter.

There are numerous discussions about the actual cost to taxpayers, and they are really quite small.... especially considering it is a search for 3 human lives.

Why does it bother you that their families mention God in their speeches... who cares? If it gives them some comfort, more power to them.

This just seems like one of those topics that different people are going to have very different view points of. We are each entitled to our own thoughts.

Alembical

[ptavv]

The common perception among those who climb Hood is that the MLB units are really only good for body location. The fact of the matter is that self rescue is the only type of rescue that a group ought to consider when setting out. MLB units would allow the location of the two missing climbers, but honestly, if they were unable to be located during the three days of clear weather, it's bad.

Part of climbing is the self reliance, responsibility, and camraderie that that inspires. MLB units would not have made the weather clear any sooner, allowed crews to rescue men from the summit in horrendous weather, or otherwise helped. Plus they're bulky and obtrusive (moreso than an avalanche beacon) and these men were geared for a light and fast assault.

The costs of this rescue are minimal, at most. All of the military service is offered free of charge and provides incredibly valuable training for the PJs and pilots involved. The PMR, Crag Rats, Mountainwave and other MR organizations are all volunteer. Timberline donates the cats to get men to the top of Palmer, as well as some bunk space. Financially, it's a nonissue.

Most people die as a result of thier own decision making, and to say that there is no need to be sensitive to them seems quite different than my feelings on the matter.

While I don't disagree that many fatal climbing accidents are the result of poor or distressed decision making, sometimes it's plain bad luck. A stable foot hold gives way, someone falls and is injured, any room for error in the window weather is eaten up dealing with the injury, and one becomes trapped in terrible weather.

It's not unfathomable that these men were simply the victims of a tragic accident in an unforgiving place.

[cj001f]

it's flaming to have a different opinion? i don't think so. i have climbed a few mountains in my time in the u.s. and the andes.

you, of course, were intimately familiar with everyone of those areas? Bullshit.

They did their homework - talking to people who'd climbed it before, checking out routes and the weather forecast. They had some weather leeway. If everybody waited for a 3-day+ window in the Northwest, nobody would climb anything between October and June.

Now back to the stupid second guessing.

[alembical]

While I don't disagree that many fatal climbing accidents are the result of poor or distressed decision making, sometimes it's plain bad luck. A stable foot hold gives way, someone falls and is injured, any room for error in the window weather is eaten up dealing with the injury, and one becomes trapped in terrible weather.

Completely agree. The point I was trying to make, albeit not very clearly was that many deaths outside the realam of hazardous activities are also the result of decision making.... driving too fast, drinking too much, out of shape, over stressed, overweight, unhealthy lifestyle, etc...

Alembical

[powstash]

If everybody waited for a 3-day+ window in the Northwest, nobody would climb anything between October and June.

cj speaks truth. In May of 2004 it took me 3 attempts to finally summit. The weather windows just don't last up there.

cj, pm me please

[vanilla gorilla]

i'm just like everybody else who pays the taxes that fund the rescue operation that cost a ton of money and put a lot of people at risk, and then listen to media coverage of the families' discussions of god.

.

Does anyone really care about the money aspect? I mean we are talking about a life so who gives a shit if money is spent. Next time you go skiing or drive down the road or whatever, and you happen to get hurt, lets hear you say no thanks to any help because it might cost money.

I know the rescuers were put at considerable risk but I am sure they were calculated risks. And lets remember they are putting themselves in that spot by their own choice. And kudos to them for trying.

If you don't like to listen to grieving families talk about their god to help themselves through then turn the page on the paper or change the channel.

[ILOVE2SKI]

Officials call off search for Mount Hood men
Sheriff gives up hope of finding climbers alive; mission a ‘recovery effort’



Updated: 40 minutes ago
PORTLAND, Ore. - Rescue teams gave up any hope of finding two missing climbers alive on stormy Mount Hood and abandoned their frustrating, 9-day-old search Wednesday.

“We’ve done everything we can at this point,” said Sheriff Joe Wampler, choking back tears after returning from one last, fruitless flyover of the 11,239-foot peak.

Wampler said the men’s families made the decision to end the search as yet another snowstorm barreled in.

“It was pretty much their conclusion. The chance of survival is pretty nil. I don’t think I can justify putting any more people in the field with the hope of finding them alive,” the sheriff said.

He said the operation was now a “recovery effort.”

Three climbers in all were reported missing in the snow on Mount Hood on Dec. 11. One of them, 48-year-old Dallas landscape architect Kelly James, was found dead in a snow cave on Monday. Volunteers continued scouring the mountains for signs of James’ climbing partners, Brian Hall, 37, and Jerry “Nikko” Cooke, 36. But climbing gear found on the peak suggested the two may have been swept to their deaths.

Wampler announced the end of the search after personally piloting a Piper Cub over the mountain for new clues and finding none — no tracks, no signs of snow caves, no other debris.

“Right now things are moving in from the west,” he said of the snowstorm. “That window has shut on us.”

Even before the sheriff spoke, all of the volunteers had returned to regular lives and helicopters used in the search had returned to their bases.

“I feel good about what I did. I wanted to do what I could for the family,” Wampler said. “You start something, you want to finish it.”


Wednesday morning, before the search was called off, Angela Hall, Brian Hall’s sister, said on NBC’s “Today” show that the two men’s considerable experience climbing mountains is just one of the things that gives her hope they are still alive.

“Also, just their strength of spirit, their strong will,” she said.

Search teams made a full-scale attack of the mountain over the weekend. But the search was scaled back to two air teams Tuesday and the rest of the crews were put on standby.

An autopsy on James was tentatively scheduled for Wednesday. Officials have said he had a dislocated shoulder.

Climbers’ photos raise concerns
Hopes of finding the climbers alive dimmed after officials developed film in a disposable camera found in James’ pocket. The pictures, taken as the men began their ascent, show the three had enough gear and provisions for a quick climb up Mount Hood but not for a longer period out in the elements.

The photos show “three happy guys putting their stuff out there,” the sheriff said. But “looking what they had with them, I’m pretty concerned about how long somebody can last out there.”

Some climbers have survived in a snow cave for nearly two weeks in similarly punishing conditions. In January 1976, three teenagers lived for 13 days on Mount Hood after bad weather halted their effort to reach the summit. The youths bottled water dripping from the cave walls and survived on a mush of pudding powder and pancake mix.

But climbers suffering from hypothermia may become confused, delirious, and uncoordinated, and shiver intensely.

“The shivering is agony,” said Dr. William Long, director of the trauma center at Legacy Emanuel Hospital in Portland. “Once the shivering stops, they have lost the ability to fend for themselves.”

The blood begins to lose oxygen and thicken, just as a car’s oil congeals in frigid temperatures, he said. “That puts a huge strain on the cardiovascular system,” Long said.

Digging for safety
Climbers are supposed to dig caves slightly uphill into snow banks, creating a trap for warm air rising from their bodies. A good snow cave will have a ledge to help drain melting snow or ice and a breathing tube that can be readily cleared; the entrance can serve that purpose. And it should be marked, perhaps by a piece of clothing anchored to the ice or a stick, to let rescuers know where to find the climbers.

Ice axes left in a crude shelter indicate the men had a difficult stay and moved forward without crucial tools.

Experts say it is critical to have fuel and a stove to heat water for drinking. Dehydration can contribute to the effects of hypothermia, and swallowing snow or ice only lowers the body’s temperature.








Sad News Indeed... Rest In Peace

[Greydon Clark]

Does anyone really care about the money aspect?

No. If a house catches fire people don’t complain about the expense the fire department incurred.

[BanditXXX]

Everything I have heard about these guys implies that they researched the climb and knew what they were getting into.

They may have researched the climb, but probably failed to research the weather. Three back to back storms were predicted. With 100 mph winds at high elevation, I would say the lack of good judgement killed them.

Crystal Mt had 85 mph winds @ 7,000'. I could just imagine what it was like on Hood.