HD vs. MiniDV

So I am still in the market for a camera. I am taking this lighting class right now and we are starting to get in depth on video. My professor has shot thousands of commercials, tv shows, movies, etc. 35mm, Super 16mm, 16mm, True HD, MiniDV...


basically he knows everything there is to know about HDV and MiniDV.


From what I can tell, he is a firm believer in the DVX100 because it has an insane amount of in-camera image control.


He feels that most of the HD Cameras available for under 10k just do not have enough control, and all the companies will be doing away with tapes soon anyway so its stupid to by HD now and that the new tapeless HD stuff will be stupid expensive..


Is it stupid for me to get a DVX100 and want to shoot skiing with it?

I get the feeling from here that if it isn't 16 or HD it isn't shit...


what do you guys think?

Go HDV, you won't regret it. Why live in the past. It's painful to look at SD footage after you've edited HDV and spent some time with it. Definitely go HDV. Check out the new Canon AXH1, pretty sweet HDV camera.

As far as "in camera control", my FX1 has a full compliment of any type of tweaking I would ever need. Plus, you can always, and always will tweak in post with color correction, etc.

Tapes? They are still valid, as they make an auto back up of all your work. I'm shooting both tape and tapeless. With tape, I capture the tape to an external hard drive, then store the tape as back up. With tapeless, I store it on two different hard drives. So tapeless chews up more disc space, but is quicker to capture. One downside of tape is if you have your sweet HDV camera, you are wearing out the heads using it as a deck unless you buy a rather expensive deck or a 'cheap' hdv cam to use as a deck. This is where tapeless is nice.

Nowadays, IMHO, editing HDV is simple and not an issue anymore. You can use Cineform intermediary codecs if you are doing alot of post work, this will speed up your preview and render times. If you don't plan on doing alot of post work, then edit the 'native' hdv and save on disk space.

The last time you walked through Best Buy, how many SD 4:3 tv's did you see for sale? Hardly any. Everthing is HDV now, it's changing. Change with it.

Trackhead

Maybe I'm jonging out right now, but I can't find any info on the canon AXH1

Also, any recommendations for someone on a more limited budget? Say under a grand? (used is ok too) I also heard that with HDV, you get alot of artifacts around motion, is that true?

Thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol

Also, any recommendations for someone on a more limited budget? Say under a grand? (used is ok too)

Thanks

---

I guess this would be pretty close:
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80974

Atleast I'm thinking of getting it... As I'll also use the SDHC cards wiht my dSLR, Pentax K10d.

Too bad, it doesn't seem to have a jack for a helmet-cam...

TH, can you confirm this.

TIA

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol

Trackhead

Maybe I'm jonging out right now, but I can't find any info on the canon AXH1

---

Sorry, it's XHA1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hemas

I guess this would be pretty close:
http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80974

Atleast I'm thinking of getting it... As I'll also use the SDHC cards wiht my dSLR, Pentax K10d.

Too bad, it doesn't seem to have a jack for a helmet-cam...

TH, can you confirm this.

TIA

---

It has Component, HDMI, and standard outputs. As well as USB.

The only issue with the SD1 now is lack of editing support in software for AVCHD format. Easily negotiated with Nero, Elecard, or Blackmagic options. Soon popular software will support AVCHD editing.

The SD1 is a decent little HDV cam for run and gun, lightweight type of stuff. I bought it for the heli cam, and a cable cam rig I'm working on. Works fine for that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

It has Component, HDMI, and standard outputs. As well as USB.

---

So no input... No helmet cams then... Oh well.

TH/others:
would you consider the Canon HV20 in the same ballpark as your Panasonic?
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

seems to be reviewed pretty well, very curious to hear your thoughts.

Moshishid - sorry for the quasi-thrunting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaka

TH/others:
would you consider the Canon HV20 in the same ballpark as your Panasonic?
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

seems to be reviewed pretty well, very curious to hear your thoughts.

Moshishid - sorry for the quasi-thrunting

---

nah, this thread is good....we need a place for all this kinda info in one spot in this forum

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaka

TH/others:
would you consider the Canon HV20 in the same ballpark as your Panasonic?
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

seems to be reviewed pretty well, very curious to hear your thoughts.

---

The HV20 is a Consumer Camera (read - home movies.) It doesn't have manual control or a "professional" lens, so it's going to have a smaller zoom range and will be slower (higher F-stop range.) "Prosumer" cameras are the intermediary between Consumer and true professional level cameras. They are often used by smaller production companies on a budget or larger productions where size/weight concerns trump full control and largest image sensors (highest image quality.) Although a typical prosumer camera also has 3 CCDs, they are usually 1/3" chips vs 2/3" for professional cameras (ie - 1/4 the size.) Since the Pro cameras (like Sony's F900, Panasonic's Varicam) are in the $50k range for the body alone i won't talk about them here. For Prosumer HD the market is pretty evenly split between these three models, in no particular order:

The Sony HDR-FX7 (which is the latest version of TH's FX1)

http://i.techrepublic.com.com/gallery/31943-500-399.jpg

The Canon XH A1:

http://www.dvgear.com/store/imagemag...page=prod_info

The Panasonic AG-HVX200

http://www.studiodaily.com/images/ar...1128545113.jpg

All three should be very good for learning and subsequently starting out in Videography - my preference would be the Panasonic but that's because I shoot with its big brother. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask, but Trackhead is much more familiar with this type of camera than I am.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chaka

TH/others:
would you consider the Canon HV20 in the same ballpark as your Panasonic?
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

seems to be reviewed pretty well, very curious to hear your thoughts.

Moshishid - sorry for the quasi-thrunting

---

Yes, folks are excited about the HV20 because it shoots 24p. I have almost no use for 24p, it's alot of hype, especially for action, or fast panning. People think if they shoot 24p that miraculously their footage will look like 16mm film. Guess again, takes more than just a frame rate to get a 'film look'.

But aside from the 24p hype, yeah, nice cam that records to HDV tape. HDV tape is still the user friendly way to go.

I would look for something that shoots a variable frame rate, such as the Panny that Tippster posted. It's spendy, and only shoots HDV to very expensive P2 cards. But you can shoot variable frame rates for nice time lapses without having to do multiple renders for time compression. It shoots just about every format. But it's a heavy pig.

The new Canon XHA1 is sweet, as it has two XLR audio ports, something I think the Sony FX7 lacks. It also shoots 24p and interlaced.

I only bought my little Pany SD1 for portability and the heli cam. Otherwise, I'd much rather have my FX1, as it handles much better, shoots a more accurate image in terms of color, and has more options.

Whatever you buy, I would strongly suggest a Letus 35mm adapter. These buggers allow you to get a nice 35mm like shallow DOF, otherwise unobtainable with 1/3" ccd's. Adds a nice 'artsy' look to alot of shots.

http://red.com/images/photo/redone_27.jpg

Red is still Vaporware, AFAIK.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by mc_roon

http://red.com/images/photo/redone_27.jpg

---

Dream on. ;)

Quote:

---

"Prosumer" cameras are the intermediary between Consumer and true professional level cameras. They are often used by smaller production companies on a budget or larger productions where size/weight concerns trump full control and largest image sensors (highest image quality.) Although a typical prosumer camera also has 3 CCDs, they are usually 1/3" chips vs 2/3" for professional cameras (ie - 1/4 the size.)

---

I don't know if this helps at all but according to a Sony product manager I spoke with last week their next generation of "prosumer" cameras will be 3CCD with the larger chips. His opinion was that this will close the quality gap considerably. It sounded like the updated line would be out sometime in the next 6 months.
Have fun.

thx, TH and Tippster. I guess I fall into the high end consumer category, not needing the full prosumer setup, definitely looking for that go everywhere, small form factor, light HD camera... good insights on the HV20, thanks. For my category, not comparing to full prosumer, is the HV20 a good way to go, or should I be considering ohter models.... I've read a lot of reviews, seems split between the Canon HV20, a comperable Sony for $200 and a panasonic, which is rated worse than the canon and Sony...

Ok, so im pulling the trigger very soon on an HD. I so badly want to just buy a 16mm setup, but film processing cost just isn't worth it, even though I am more comfortable shooting 16 and it just looks better..


anyway, any final thoughts on an HD?


Im leaning towards the FX7


any MUST HAVE accessories?


this whole digital thing is just weird for me...

thanks

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOHSHSIHd

Ok, so im pulling the trigger very soon on an HD. I so badly want to just buy a 16mm setup, but film processing cost just isn't worth it, even though I am more comfortable shooting 16 and it just looks better..


anyway, any final thoughts on an HD?


Im leaning towards the FX7


any MUST HAVE accessories?


this whole digital thing is just weird for me...

thanks

---

Consider using Cineform as an intermediary codec if you find yourself doing alot of color correction, or post tweaking. Bigger HDV file sizes, but render times stay fast, as do preview/framerate playback smoothness.

Cineform (download appropriate product for your NLE) makes the 13gb/hr HDV file into about 40gb/hr, but the editing speed is greatly improved.

If you have any other questions, ask. I'm not a pro, but I've been using the HDV for about 9 months.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MOHSHSIHd

this whole digital thing is just weird for me...

---

You go to film school at CU, right? Do they not teach much digital there yet?

If you can swing it timewise and you want to learn more about digital then I'd suggest taking a few classes with http://www.coloradofilmschool.net which is run through the Community College of Aurora. They have a fall '07 class listing here https://erpdnssb.cccs.edu/PRODCCA/tw...?name=homepage if you follow "class search" link. Classes are CHEAP and they almost always offer Avid, FCP, After Effects, Photoshop for editors, etc.

ok, so I am pulling the trigger within the next week.

the market is always changing, so I just wanted to check in and see if you guys have heard of anything I may have missed as far as new cameras or deals on existing cameras.


also, what do you guys suggest for camera backpacks/bags, cause I want to start getting alot of footage in the upcoming season.

thanks

bump


anyone?

Skip P2, don't go AVCHD. That's the only input I can add.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

Skip P2, don't go AVCHD. That's the only input I can add.

---

sorry, im still pretty JONG with the digi stuff....what does that mean?


thanks

P2 is Panasonic's tapeless format - it incorporates flash-type memory into Cards of 8GB & 16GB size. You run them in sequence - the big ENG cameras have 5 slots. When one card fills up it switches to the next, etc. They fit into a PC slot on laptops, so are decent for in the field aquisition and editing.

They also run $600 for the small cards, and $900 for the large.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P2_(storage_media)

I'd like to know why TH doesn't like AVCHD - for the little HiDef cameras it's supposed to be a much better format than Mpeg-2.

ok....im still sorta confused.


Im planning on getting the Sony HDR-FX7. It uses Mini-DV tapes in Mpeg-2 format.


I can use the super powerful new Macs at school for editing, so i'm really not too worried about my own computer, but I have a Intel MacBook which I will be upgrading to 2gb ram.....

will my little macbook be powerful enough for simple editing of short 5-10 minute movies using an external HD?

any real editing I will be doing on campus with their really powerful computers.

HDV is easy to edit with today's computers. It gets slow when you start adding color correction or other 'effects'. These additions to your work flow will slow your playback framerate significantly. So add them at the end of your edit, then render. Render times will slow significantly too, but no big deal.

Editing from external hard drives is no problem with HDV. HDV is only about 11-13gb per hour of footage and editing from externals is a valid workflow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Trackhead

HDV is easy to edit with today's computers. It gets slow when you start adding color correction or other 'effects'. These additions to your work flow will slow your playback framerate significantly. So add them at the end of your edit, then render. Render times will slow significantly too, but no big deal.

Editing from external hard drives is no problem with HDV. HDV is only about 11-13gb per hour of footage and editing from externals is a valid workflow.

---

HDV sucks. Shitty MPEG2 compression. Your better off using the DVX100, digitizing and working in a 8-bit uncompressed timeline, running some 55mm filters and some color correction. If your gonna waste your money on HDV you should just get the 200a and shoot true I-frame tapless HD.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MRR

HDV sucks. Shitty MPEG2 compression. Your better off using the DVX100, digitizing and working in a 8-bit uncompressed timeline, running some 55mm filters and some color correction. If your gonna waste your money on HDV you should just get the 200a and shoot true I-frame tapless HD.

---

There is no such thing as "digitizing" footage from a DVX100 asshole. It is called capturing. The camera "digitizes" the image when it is recorded. The computer capture card and codec "captures" the digitized media. Digitize means turning something from analog to digital, which is already done inside the camera.

quit trolling about things you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by advres

There is no such thing as "digitizing" footage from a DVX100 asshole. It is called capturing. The camera "digitizes" the image when it is recorded. The computer capture card and codec "captures" the digitized media. Digitize means turning something from analog to digital, which is already done inside the camera.

quit trolling about things you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

---

I'll put my skills up against yours anyday. Did you just finish your internship?

The point is that HDV sucks.

I've been out of college for years dumb fuck. I worked on a smoke/flame system that you would never even be able to afford let alone use. I think I know what I am talking about.

And you cunting up a thread about the difference between DV and HDV with P2 is just nonsence. I think if the person was thinking about a cheap DV or HDV cam going for the P2 is just ludicrous. Most people can't afford all of the space needed to store all of that footage. Do you know how much P2 cards cost? Do you know how much firestores cost? Do you know how much a RAID array for this costs. It is economical for a business to go this route, but for the standard person looking to shoot some stuff and edit small pieces together, HDV is a much more economical and smarter choice.

And since you asked what CGI standed for in the other thread, I will guarantee I know a bit more about the subject then you.

Don't worry, if this is dankhucker again, you will be banned by tomorrow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by advres

I've been out of college for years dumb fuck. I worked on a smoke/flame system that you would never even be able to afford let alone use. I think I know what I am talking about.

And you cunting up a thread about the difference between DV and HDV with P2 is just nonsence. I think if the person was thinking about a cheap DV or HDV cam going for the P2 is just ludicrous. Most people can't afford all of the space needed to store all of that footage. Do you know how much P2 cards cost? Do you know how much firestores cost? Do you know how much a RAID array for this costs. It is economical for a business to go this route, but for the standard person looking to shoot some stuff and edit small pieces together, HDV is a much more economical and smarter choice.

And since you asked what CGI standed for in the other thread, I will guarantee I know a bit more about the subject then you.

Don't worry, if this is dankhucker again, you will be banned by tomorrow.

---

I have a firestore, I have a 200a and I have a RAID array. I told the dude to stick with the 100a. I said if your gonna waste your money on HDV then you may as well take it to the next step and go P2.

When is HD not HD?


When its HDV!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by advres

Don't worry, if this is dankhucker again, you will be banned by tomorrow.

---

better go run and tell the big bad suit then......

don't worry... I will. I wouldn't mind if you didn't act like such a bitch all of the time, but you make this place completely unenjoyable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MRR

When is HD not HD?


When its HDV!

---

You're right in principle (albeit coming across... errr... "dickish") but for what the OP wants to do HDV is far better than MiniDV.

The Great HD Camera Shoot Out

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...Conclusion.htm

Here's a great camera shootout for consumer cameras including; Canon HV20, Sony HDR-HC7, Panasonic HDI-SD1, and JVC GZ-HD7.

Camcorderinfo bias is towards the image and manual functions.

The Sony FX7 looks like an amazing camera, but I don't want to beat on a $2500 camera, and the prohibitive size wouldn't fit in my kayak. That, and the fact is that I could produce better video if I improve on my video skills than if I got my hands on a prosumer camera.

After reading the review. I'm now down to Sony HC7 or the Canon HV20 or HV10, leaning heavily towards the HC7.

I love my HDR-FX7. Can't see myself using anything other than a sony, cause I am used to their menu styles/controls and my Digital Cinema professor has been using the FX1 and now the FX7 and knows all the little ins and outs to them...

Woot Woot!!! I got a huge box delivered to work today. It looks like $1500 bucks of fun: a Sony HDR-HC7 (the camera is smaller than it felt at the store & I'm stoked it'll fit in my existing baby pelican box), a waterproof aquapak, a manfroto/bogen tripod w the 701R head(scary big, scary heavy, yikes), and a .45 wide angle lens. Score one for stable consumer high definition video of dropping big ski lines and dropping big waterfalls in kayaks.

Thanks to everyone that posted feedback and posted their examples of quality videos.

Be sure to post up the results when you get some ski footage, as will I once its deep enough.

Roger Carter, right?

The DVX100 is a fantastic camera and will provide you with a wonderful image that is only deficient for a broadcast quality picture, although it can still do even that.

A few things: As Roger will tell you, HDV is a combersome, poorly designed format that is on its way out. It is also very difficult to edit in. If you are going for HD, wait a bit until the format has advanced beyond HDV compression. Also wait to buy a camera that uses a more standard (read: cheap) flash memory then the currently popular P2.

I love the DVX100 -- it is the best quality MiniDV ever made and that ever will be made.

I also realize that you have made your decision decision already, but I just wanted to drop my two cents.

Edit: by the way, take advanced digital post with Chris Osborn, or if it's not offered, as him about editing all that HDV.