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Thread: HD vs. MiniDV

  1. #1
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    HD vs. MiniDV

    So I am still in the market for a camera. I am taking this lighting class right now and we are starting to get in depth on video. My professor has shot thousands of commercials, tv shows, movies, etc. 35mm, Super 16mm, 16mm, True HD, MiniDV...


    basically he knows everything there is to know about HDV and MiniDV.


    From what I can tell, he is a firm believer in the DVX100 because it has an insane amount of in-camera image control.


    He feels that most of the HD Cameras available for under 10k just do not have enough control, and all the companies will be doing away with tapes soon anyway so its stupid to by HD now and that the new tapeless HD stuff will be stupid expensive..


    Is it stupid for me to get a DVX100 and want to shoot skiing with it?

    I get the feeling from here that if it isn't 16 or HD it isn't shit...


    what do you guys think?

  2. #2
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    Go HDV, you won't regret it. Why live in the past. It's painful to look at SD footage after you've edited HDV and spent some time with it. Definitely go HDV. Check out the new Canon AXH1, pretty sweet HDV camera.

    As far as "in camera control", my FX1 has a full compliment of any type of tweaking I would ever need. Plus, you can always, and always will tweak in post with color correction, etc.

    Tapes? They are still valid, as they make an auto back up of all your work. I'm shooting both tape and tapeless. With tape, I capture the tape to an external hard drive, then store the tape as back up. With tapeless, I store it on two different hard drives. So tapeless chews up more disc space, but is quicker to capture. One downside of tape is if you have your sweet HDV camera, you are wearing out the heads using it as a deck unless you buy a rather expensive deck or a 'cheap' hdv cam to use as a deck. This is where tapeless is nice.

    Nowadays, IMHO, editing HDV is simple and not an issue anymore. You can use Cineform intermediary codecs if you are doing alot of post work, this will speed up your preview and render times. If you don't plan on doing alot of post work, then edit the 'native' hdv and save on disk space.

    The last time you walked through Best Buy, how many SD 4:3 tv's did you see for sale? Hardly any. Everthing is HDV now, it's changing. Change with it.

  3. #3
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    Trackhead

    Maybe I'm jonging out right now, but I can't find any info on the canon AXH1

    Also, any recommendations for someone on a more limited budget? Say under a grand? (used is ok too) I also heard that with HDV, you get alot of artifacts around motion, is that true?

    Thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    Also, any recommendations for someone on a more limited budget? Say under a grand? (used is ok too)

    Thanks
    I guess this would be pretty close:
    http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80974

    Atleast I'm thinking of getting it... As I'll also use the SDHC cards wiht my dSLR, Pentax K10d.

    Too bad, it doesn't seem to have a jack for a helmet-cam...

    TH, can you confirm this.

    TIA
    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier
    You should post naked pictures of this godless heathen.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dawn Patrol View Post
    Trackhead

    Maybe I'm jonging out right now, but I can't find any info on the canon AXH1

    Sorry, it's XHA1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hemas View Post
    I guess this would be pretty close:
    http://tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=80974

    Atleast I'm thinking of getting it... As I'll also use the SDHC cards wiht my dSLR, Pentax K10d.

    Too bad, it doesn't seem to have a jack for a helmet-cam...

    TH, can you confirm this.

    TIA
    It has Component, HDMI, and standard outputs. As well as USB.

    The only issue with the SD1 now is lack of editing support in software for AVCHD format. Easily negotiated with Nero, Elecard, or Blackmagic options. Soon popular software will support AVCHD editing.

    The SD1 is a decent little HDV cam for run and gun, lightweight type of stuff. I bought it for the heli cam, and a cable cam rig I'm working on. Works fine for that.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackhead View Post
    It has Component, HDMI, and standard outputs. As well as USB.
    So no input... No helmet cams then... Oh well.
    Quote Originally Posted by RootSkier
    You should post naked pictures of this godless heathen.

  8. #8
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    TH/others:
    would you consider the Canon HV20 in the same ballpark as your Panasonic?
    http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

    seems to be reviewed pretty well, very curious to hear your thoughts.

    Moshishid - sorry for the quasi-thrunting

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka View Post
    TH/others:
    would you consider the Canon HV20 in the same ballpark as your Panasonic?
    http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

    seems to be reviewed pretty well, very curious to hear your thoughts.

    Moshishid - sorry for the quasi-thrunting
    nah, this thread is good....we need a place for all this kinda info in one spot in this forum

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka View Post
    TH/others:
    would you consider the Canon HV20 in the same ballpark as your Panasonic?
    http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

    seems to be reviewed pretty well, very curious to hear your thoughts.
    The HV20 is a Consumer Camera (read - home movies.) It doesn't have manual control or a "professional" lens, so it's going to have a smaller zoom range and will be slower (higher F-stop range.) "Prosumer" cameras are the intermediary between Consumer and true professional level cameras. They are often used by smaller production companies on a budget or larger productions where size/weight concerns trump full control and largest image sensors (highest image quality.) Although a typical prosumer camera also has 3 CCDs, they are usually 1/3" chips vs 2/3" for professional cameras (ie - 1/4 the size.) Since the Pro cameras (like Sony's F900, Panasonic's Varicam) are in the $50k range for the body alone i won't talk about them here. For Prosumer HD the market is pretty evenly split between these three models, in no particular order:

    The Sony HDR-FX7 (which is the latest version of TH's FX1)



    The Canon XH A1:



    The Panasonic AG-HVX200



    All three should be very good for learning and subsequently starting out in Videography - my preference would be the Panasonic but that's because I shoot with its big brother. If you have any specific questions feel free to ask, but Trackhead is much more familiar with this type of camera than I am.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaka View Post
    TH/others:
    would you consider the Canon HV20 in the same ballpark as your Panasonic?
    http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...der-Review.htm

    seems to be reviewed pretty well, very curious to hear your thoughts.

    Moshishid - sorry for the quasi-thrunting
    Yes, folks are excited about the HV20 because it shoots 24p. I have almost no use for 24p, it's alot of hype, especially for action, or fast panning. People think if they shoot 24p that miraculously their footage will look like 16mm film. Guess again, takes more than just a frame rate to get a 'film look'.

    But aside from the 24p hype, yeah, nice cam that records to HDV tape. HDV tape is still the user friendly way to go.

  12. #12
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    I would look for something that shoots a variable frame rate, such as the Panny that Tippster posted. It's spendy, and only shoots HDV to very expensive P2 cards. But you can shoot variable frame rates for nice time lapses without having to do multiple renders for time compression. It shoots just about every format. But it's a heavy pig.

    The new Canon XHA1 is sweet, as it has two XLR audio ports, something I think the Sony FX7 lacks. It also shoots 24p and interlaced.

    I only bought my little Pany SD1 for portability and the heli cam. Otherwise, I'd much rather have my FX1, as it handles much better, shoots a more accurate image in terms of color, and has more options.

    Whatever you buy, I would strongly suggest a Letus 35mm adapter. These buggers allow you to get a nice 35mm like shallow DOF, otherwise unobtainable with 1/3" ccd's. Adds a nice 'artsy' look to alot of shots.

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  14. #14
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    Red is still Vaporware, AFAIK.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by mc_roon View Post
    Dream on.

  16. #16
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    "Prosumer" cameras are the intermediary between Consumer and true professional level cameras. They are often used by smaller production companies on a budget or larger productions where size/weight concerns trump full control and largest image sensors (highest image quality.) Although a typical prosumer camera also has 3 CCDs, they are usually 1/3" chips vs 2/3" for professional cameras (ie - 1/4 the size.)
    I don't know if this helps at all but according to a Sony product manager I spoke with last week their next generation of "prosumer" cameras will be 3CCD with the larger chips. His opinion was that this will close the quality gap considerably. It sounded like the updated line would be out sometime in the next 6 months.
    Have fun.

  17. #17
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    thx, TH and Tippster. I guess I fall into the high end consumer category, not needing the full prosumer setup, definitely looking for that go everywhere, small form factor, light HD camera... good insights on the HV20, thanks. For my category, not comparing to full prosumer, is the HV20 a good way to go, or should I be considering ohter models.... I've read a lot of reviews, seems split between the Canon HV20, a comperable Sony for $200 and a panasonic, which is rated worse than the canon and Sony...

  18. #18
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    Ok, so im pulling the trigger very soon on an HD. I so badly want to just buy a 16mm setup, but film processing cost just isn't worth it, even though I am more comfortable shooting 16 and it just looks better..


    anyway, any final thoughts on an HD?


    Im leaning towards the FX7


    any MUST HAVE accessories?


    this whole digital thing is just weird for me...

    thanks

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOHSHSIHd View Post
    Ok, so im pulling the trigger very soon on an HD. I so badly want to just buy a 16mm setup, but film processing cost just isn't worth it, even though I am more comfortable shooting 16 and it just looks better..


    anyway, any final thoughts on an HD?


    Im leaning towards the FX7


    any MUST HAVE accessories?


    this whole digital thing is just weird for me...

    thanks
    Consider using Cineform as an intermediary codec if you find yourself doing alot of color correction, or post tweaking. Bigger HDV file sizes, but render times stay fast, as do preview/framerate playback smoothness.

    Cineform (download appropriate product for your NLE) makes the 13gb/hr HDV file into about 40gb/hr, but the editing speed is greatly improved.

    If you have any other questions, ask. I'm not a pro, but I've been using the HDV for about 9 months.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MOHSHSIHd View Post
    this whole digital thing is just weird for me...
    You go to film school at CU, right? Do they not teach much digital there yet?

    If you can swing it timewise and you want to learn more about digital then I'd suggest taking a few classes with http://www.coloradofilmschool.net which is run through the Community College of Aurora. They have a fall '07 class listing here https://erpdnssb.cccs.edu/PRODCCA/tw...?name=homepage if you follow "class search" link. Classes are CHEAP and they almost always offer Avid, FCP, After Effects, Photoshop for editors, etc.

  21. #21
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    ok, so I am pulling the trigger within the next week.

    the market is always changing, so I just wanted to check in and see if you guys have heard of anything I may have missed as far as new cameras or deals on existing cameras.


    also, what do you guys suggest for camera backpacks/bags, cause I want to start getting alot of footage in the upcoming season.

    thanks

  22. #22
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    bump


    anyone?

  23. #23
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    Skip P2, don't go AVCHD. That's the only input I can add.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trackhead View Post
    Skip P2, don't go AVCHD. That's the only input I can add.
    sorry, im still pretty JONG with the digi stuff....what does that mean?


    thanks

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    P2 is Panasonic's tapeless format - it incorporates flash-type memory into Cards of 8GB & 16GB size. You run them in sequence - the big ENG cameras have 5 slots. When one card fills up it switches to the next, etc. They fit into a PC slot on laptops, so are decent for in the field aquisition and editing.

    They also run $600 for the small cards, and $900 for the large.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P2_(storage_media)

    I'd like to know why TH doesn't like AVCHD - for the little HiDef cameras it's supposed to be a much better format than Mpeg-2.

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