BOA Love & Hate

I had a Fischer traverse with boa for years. It worked. No warranty nothing.

What really sucked was bending over and crancking the dial to max, flexing the boot cranking again. Then pushing the shell around my ankle together to crank more. All in powder on a summit. Then get in the binding ski five turns and bend over again to tighten it more.

Hope Lange doesn’t jump on the hype wagon.
I am in zgpt now, those buckles suck too. But at least I know how tight I am before dropping in.

This is pro issues on a pro forum!

I have said these two things from the start...

1. Don't buy a boot because of BOA but also don't NOT buy a boot because ot BOA
B. BOA won't make a boot that doesn't fit, fit.

After spending a good amount of time at BOA in Denver, BOA is very addiment that they will not bring their closure system to a product until they are sure that there is an advantage. BOA chooses who and what products they want to work with, not the other way around.

https://www.skitalk.com/ams/boa-its-...re-system.277/

I think every (major) boot brand will have some BOA boots in ther collections next season. BOA is here to stay. As far as breakage and longevity, I have yet to hear of one breaking and and the skiers here will be on their second or third pair of boots before one would need to be replaced.

The boa alpine system is just great. It gets far too much hate from people who’ve never used it. The main problem is people are judging the new system because of the faults of the prior ones and it’s not an apples to apples comparison in anyway.

I recently purchased Dynafit Ridge which has an analogous design to BOA. The shop guy was adamant that I had to loosen it for climbing. I have always buckled and forgot my lower buckles. He indicated that on other boots in climbing mode the boa had broken. Loosening and tightening the boa every lap would seem to take away from the efficiency of the boots. Anyone have thoughts either way on shop guys advice?

https://www.boafit.com/en-us/products/ski

I did not realize it 2 days ago but It would appear we should look at BOA as a thing itself as oposed to just something on a boot or shoe

I'd try it.

I don’t have any boa other than the back of my helmet. But the new boots with all boa seems like a case of manufacturers telling the customer what they want as opposed to the manufacturer making what the consumer wants. We will see how it goes over time, but I won’t be an early adopter.

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Originally Posted by El Kanone

But the new boots with all boa seems like a case of manufacturers telling the customer what they want as opposed to the manufacturer making what the consumer wants..

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You obviously never worked retail, the average consumer has no idea what they want/need./ FWIW, the posters here are NOT average comsumers.

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Originally Posted by El Kanone

I don’t have any boa other than the back of my helmet. But the new boots with all boa seems like a case of manufacturers telling the customer what they want as opposed to the manufacturer making what the consumer wants. We will see how it goes over time, but I won’t be an early adopter.

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Kinda a bit of lol on my end. Buckles have been standard for how many decades now? And ever since Booster came a long, that 4th buckle has been nothing but in my way. Upper cuff buckles do a great job (along with static power straps) at locking your forward flex into a vice.

Booster kind of solved that problem by making the 4th buckle obsolete, and as such the concept of cuff buckles has been debated for decades. We have 3-buckle boots with one toe, one ankle, and one upper cuff... all to be resolved with a booster. Flexon played around with this, as has K2, and Salomon.

This is the next step and such a big step that literally all manufacturers are hopping on board. Except Lange. Hmmm...

Another perspective is this-- I'd buy a Lange with no buckles... just 4 boosters with cams. Maybe I should frankenstein that for science. Seems like Boa is ahead of me, though.

I have no doubt all those manufacturers’ R&D teams sent this through the ringer in order to protect their own careers.

The BOA extravaganza does not read like a couple of companies trying something new. It reads like— We’ve all been playing with this for years, so here you go.

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Originally Posted by cat in january

I recently purchased Dynafit Ridge which has an analogous design to BOA. The shop guy was adamant that I had to loosen it for climbing. I have always buckled and forgot my lower buckles. He indicated that on other boots in climbing mode the boa had broken. Loosening and tightening the boa every lap would seem to take away from the efficiency of the boots. Anyone have thoughts either way on shop guys advice?

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Scarpa F1 has been out for years. There are roughly 3.2 billion pairs of them in use in Europe IME. I can’t think of any shop or experienced skier saying they break if you don’t loosen them. As an engineer I can’t think of any reason why this would be the case.

As a longtime F1 user and Skorpius II user for years, one of the reasons I like Boa (on lightweight AT boots anyway) is I can dial in just the right snugness that prevents heel lift on the uphill & just leave it that way all day.

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Originally Posted by Flexon Phil

I have said these two things from the start...

1. Don't buy a boot because of BOA but also don't NOT buy a boot because ot BOA
B. BOA won't make a boot that doesn't fit, fit.

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So people should buy stuff that fits? Solid advice there Phil - right inline with some of the SkiMonster's finest (and revolutionary i might add) musings on boot flex. It turns out a boot that is too big does not flex the same as a boot that fits. Who would have thought eh.

I have quite a few days on Hawx XTD 130 Boas by now. I think the new system is great and would happily recommend it to just about anybody. I think the new LV K2s that are confirmed to be released just over new years are interesting enough that I am contemplating selling my new Hawx 130s to get a pair of those instead. Time will tell.

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Originally Posted by Flexon Phil

You obviously never worked retail, the average consumer has no idea what they want/need./ FWIW, the posters here are NOT average comsumers.

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Lol, yeah. Average customer can barely fit themselves for gloves. Idiots.

Im in the new Fischer RCfour Pro one forty BOA. The fit is what i’ve been after for a long time. The boa works really well in snugging the forefoot into the boot, entire shell wraps nice and even unlike a buckle. My only complaint is when loosening the boa it throws a lot of slack causing a lot of rotations to take up said slack. Not really conducive for a guy who likes to loosen instep at the lift and latch down when unloading to ski. Luckily I don’t need to loosen it other than in the lodge taking a break.


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my biggest issue of getting a BOA boot is sounding like a snowboarder when booting up

Hmm Cortex boot no BOA? Ok ok just dreaming … but knobs now more knobs and not small knobs. Something else to stretch your gaiters over. My only bitch and definitely open to try but going to wait on a lot of feedback before diving into another boot investment.



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I haven’t tried an overlap boot with boa. But, I’ve put countless time in boa equipped touring boots. I will choose buckles every time. I’ve never been able to crank them the way I can a buckle.

I seem to be in the minority. And, maybe overlap boots are a better use case. But, this still seems to be a solution chasing a problem - especially the cuff boa.


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Flexon Phil

I have said these two things from the start...

1. Don't buy a boot because of BOA but also don't NOT buy a boot because ot BOA
B. BOA won't make a boot that doesn't fit, fit.

After spending a good amount of time at BOA in Denver, BOA is very addiment that they will not bring their closure system to a product until they are sure that there is an advantage. BOA chooses who and what products they want to work with, not the other way around.

https://www.skitalk.com/ams/boa-its-...re-system.277/

I think every (major) boot brand will have some BOA boots in ther collections next season. BOA is here to stay. As far as breakage and longevity, I have yet to hear of one breaking and and the skiers here will be on their second or third pair of boots before one would need to be replaced.

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Basically agree except two parts.

I had one customer knock his boa off and it stretched the mounting plate, causing the boa to fall off multiple times a day until he came in and fixed it. But still rare.

Also, I truly believe boa gives a worse fit than buckles if the boot doesn’t fit perfectly. The inability to tighten the forefoot and mid foot separately means you have to crank the mid foot to get the forefoot any tighter. If your mid foot isn’t punched perfectly, you crush it in an attempt to tighten the forefoot. With buckles you can just use the instep buckle looser.

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Originally Posted by cat in january

I recently purchased Dynafit Ridge which has an analogous design to BOA. The shop guy was adamant that I had to loosen it for climbing. I have always buckled and forgot my lower buckles. He indicated that on other boots in climbing mode the boa had broken. Loosening and tightening the boa every lap would seem to take away from the efficiency of the boots. Anyone have thoughts either way on shop guys advice?

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My friend does not loosen his Ridge boa and it has caused no issue. The boot would fit like shit without it.

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Originally Posted by Skip Dooley

I haven’t tried an overlap boot with boa. But, I’ve put countless time in boa equipped touring boots. I will choose buckles every time. I’ve never been able to crank them the way I can a buckle.

I seem to be in the minority. And, maybe overlap boots are a better use case. But, this still seems to be a solution chasing a problem - especially the cuff boa.


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so what you’re saying is you’ve never tired alpine boa which is a completely different system. Other than a knob and cable it’s apples to oranges. You can crank down alpine boa extremely hard. Just as if not tighter than buckles because you don’t run out of teeth like a buckle.

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Originally Posted by 2FUNKY

Im in the new Fischer RCfour Pro one forty BOA. The fit is what i’ve been after for a long time. The boa works really well in snugging the forefoot into the boot, entire shell wraps nice and even unlike a buckle. My only complaint is when loosening the boa it throws a lot of slack causing a lot of rotations to take up said slack. Not really conducive for a guy who likes to loosen instep at the lift and latch down when unloading to ski. Luckily I don’t need to loosen it other than in the lodge taking a break.


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Try turning the via dial backwards without popping it open. Your mind might explode

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Originally Posted by FloridaSnow

so what you’re saying is you’ve never tired alpine boa which is a completely different system. Other than a knob and cable it’s apples to oranges. You can crank down alpine boa extremely hard. Just as if not tighter than buckles because you don’t run out of teeth like a buckle.

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Yes, that is what I said. I’ve never said they’re terrible. I don’t buy that they’re apples and oranges. It’s literally the same thing. I have boas on a lot of my gear. They’re neat. They’re never necessary, and I’ve yet to find a use case where they’re an upgrade. On something like a ski boot, I don’t like the entire fit being dependent on one closure system. One buckle breaks? Not a big deal. Smash the boa and it falls off - now your whole foot is sloshing until you can get it fixed.

What does it solve vs a buckle?

How am I one of the few on here who doesn’t get it.

Man am I gonna feel silly if I ever hop on this train..




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Holding out for quad boa

Quote:

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Originally Posted by El Kanone

I don’t have any boa other than the back of my helmet. But the new boots with all boa seems like a case of manufacturers telling the customer what they want as opposed to the manufacturer making what the consumer wants. We will see how it goes over time, but I won’t be an early adopter.

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Exactly- old shit- new ownership/ new sales team/ new marketing team. New old garbage being pushed in an industry that it’s new to

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Originally Posted by gaijin

The BOA extravaganza does not read like a couple of companies trying something new. It reads like— We’ve all been playing with this for years, so here you go.

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The need to keep fresh and keep sales up. Tell them it’s the next thing….

Boa has been failing for decades on snowboard boots/ cycling shoes/ helmets etc…

Only time will tell if that’s the outcome in ski boots but one thing is for sure new Boa ownership. It’s now a publicly traded company under a conglomerate operating for profit. More resources and $ to push the older tech into an untapped market….

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Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn

Lol, yeah. Average customer can barely fit themselves for gloves. Idiots.

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Are you telling me I need to see a glove fitter now!?!?

Seriously though, I’d love if you could magically heat up gloves and punch a finger or two a bit longer.

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Originally Posted by Skip Dooley

Yes, that is what I said. I’ve never said they’re terrible. I don’t buy that they’re apples and oranges. It’s literally the same thing. I have boas on a lot of my gear. They’re neat. They’re never necessary, and I’ve yet to find a use case where they’re an upgrade. On something like a ski boot, I don’t like the entire fit being dependent on one closure system. One buckle breaks? Not a big deal. Smash the boa and it falls off - now your whole foot is sloshing until you can get it fixed.

What does it solve vs a buckle?

How am I one of the few on here who doesn’t get it.

Man am I gonna feel silly if I ever hop on this train..




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well ya they’re apples to oranges. It’s literally not the same thing and that’s the point. All the people like yourself who keep commenting about the negatives of prior boas which absolutely don’t apply to the alpine boa are beating a dead horse. It isn’t the same system.

No one has said they’re necessary, but they are better than buckles. Both in fit and function as well as strength. Boa is an upgrade in fit over buckles, they create a better wrap which buckles cannot match and anyone who as used them has confirmed, they’re an upgrade in strength proven by the failure rate of buckles to boa in testing with buckles failing more with less effort, they’re an upgrade in repair and replacement as the parts are 100% free and compatible across all boa boots unlike buckles. If the boa knob falls off it clicks right back into place. That’s the genius of the design. If you knock a buckle off or break it then it’s gone. Not the case with boa.

you’re one of the only ones who doesn’t get it because you’ve never held or used the system. So you’re basing your comments on prior systems which again is apples oranges.

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Originally Posted by teamdirt

The need to keep fresh and keep sales up. Tell them it’s the next thing….

Boa has been failing for decades on snowboard boots/ cycling shoes/ helmets etc…

Only time will tell if that’s the outcome in ski boots but one thing is for sure new Boa ownership. It’s now a publicly traded company under a conglomerate operating for profit. More resources and $ to push the older tech into an untapped market….

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it’s a completely redesigned system based solely around alpine ski boots. It’s been tested for years at this point. It’s been proven to be more reliable and take more force to break it over a buckle. You can be stuck in your old ways but everything you stated is still false.

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Originally Posted by FloridaSnow

well ya they’re apples to oranges. It’s literally not the same thing and that’s the point. All the people like yourself who keep commenting about the negatives of prior boas which absolutely don’t apply to the alpine boa are beating a dead horse. It isn’t the same system.

No one has said they’re necessary, but they are better than buckles. Both in fit and function as well as strength. Boa is an upgrade in fit over buckles, they create a better wrap which buckles cannot match and anyone who as used them has confirmed, they’re an upgrade in strength proven by the failure rate of buckles to boa in testing with buckles failing more with less effort, they’re an upgrade in repair and replacement as the parts are 100% free and compatible across all boa boots unlike buckles. If the boa knob falls off it clicks right back into place. That’s the genius of the design. If you knock a buckle off or break it then it’s gone. Not the case with boa.

you’re one of the only ones who doesn’t get it because you’ve never held or used the system. So you’re basing your comments on prior systems which again is apples oranges.

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Ok dude. We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree on that. Either way, hope you get some good pow under those boa wrapped feet.


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Originally Posted by Skip Dooley

Ok dude. We’re just gonna have to agree to disagree on that. Either way, hope you get some good pow under those boa wrapped feet.


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you can’t disagree on something you’ve never tried. Go give them a feel and a try on then come back and we can talk about that agreeing to disagree

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Originally Posted by byates1

Holding out for quad boa

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Pshht. Reach around boa is the next thing. You heard it here.


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Hey there. Bootfitter who sells a lot of boa boots here.

Lower boa is completely unnecessary. It works differently than buckles but there are arguments in which it can be said it’s worse (lack of independent control). It really isn’t a game changer and I’d argue it’s not worth the $100. Boa breaks, I’ve seen it. Once. But there’s also not a lot of boa and it hasn’t been mass available for long. Buckles do break. I fix one every other day. But there’s also are way more buckles out there and way more old buckles. Boas are only two years old.

Then there is the execution of boa. K2 does the best job of letting the boot close in a unique way. I bet that toe dam system would improve buckle fit as well.

Upper cuff boa could actually be more impressive than lower. Being a dynamic part of the boot, there is some cool qualities that could show up. But also you don’t get independent control. Apparently it’s not needed but until I try it, that’s just marketing to me. Does my boot gaiter go over the boa? If so, that will really piss me off when adjusting my powerstrap.

All this talk about progression of ski boots and the most important thing is still fit. If companies improved their fit, that would be way more of an advancement.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

All this talk about progression of ski boots and the most important thing is still fit. If companies improved their fit, that would be way more of an advancement.

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Instead of all these doodad new closures, why for the love of god can boot companies not make a freaking half size boot! My choice is either slopping around in a 27.5 or size down to a 26.5 that requires a bunch of boot work to fit and if my liner isn’t perfectly sitting in the heel pocket (pushing me forward) I’m losing a toenail. Why do I have choose between a 304mm BSL and a 314mm BSL?

It’s super aggravating.

I think the biggest advantage of BOA is it provides brands cover to raise the price of boots $50-$100.

This thread was a lot of back forth (from me and others) about much ado about nothing until Lange decides what they’re gonna do.

Let’s face it— if Lange RS goes BOA, we’ll all drink the poison. If not, BOA’s dead.

Conversation over.


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Originally Posted by TAFKALVS

Instead of all these doodad new closures, why for the love of god can boot companies not make a freaking half size boot! My choice is either slopping around in a 27.5 or size down to a 26.5 that requires a bunch of boot work to fit and if my liner isn’t perfectly sitting in the heel pocket (pushing me forward) I’m losing a toenail. Why do I have choose between a 304mm BSL and a 314mm BSL?

It’s super aggravating.

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It's cost vs. ROI thing. When any brand launches a size run of boots from 22-32 (without the half sizes), it currently costs in the vicinity of 1.0-1.5 million Euros for just the shell and cuff lasts & molds (not including liner tooling, boot boards, grip pads, buckles, power straps, etc.). If you add half size shells to that, it would add a minimum of 600-700k Euro to that total, easily pushing things over the 2million mark, especially when everything is accounted for. These costs would have to go somewhere and they would certainly not be absorbed by the boot brand. Some people, like yourself, might pay the higher retail price, but the vast majority wouldn't. Retailers would be pissed because now they have to stock more options and manage more complexity, which is already aggravatingly difficult. Brands would hate it for the same reason. But ultimately, brands just aren't given that much CAPEX to launch ski boots with. The ROI would simply not match the cost of do it and the idea dies at the business case.

But why not just make your current size run 3-5mm longer? Keep it the exact same fit but stretch the toe box? The biggest selling feature of a Salomon boot is that it almost fits a half size bigger.

Literally, tight ankle, wide forefoot, wide toes box, couple mm extra length. That is the million dollar boot. I don’t care how it closes. All we do bootfitting is tighten the rear foot and looosen the forefoot. All. Day. Long.

The Hawx ultra is the closest fit to that but the ramp down on the end of the toe box ruins the fit for many. It is the easiest to sell ski boot that I’ve had available to sell in twenty years. Of course the plastic is too thin though.

The revolution is in fit and nothing else. Fit is what people feel.

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Originally Posted by GoldenBC

But why not just make your current size run 3-5mm longer? Keep it the exact same fit but stretch the toe box? The biggest selling feature of a Salomon boot is that it almost fits a half size bigger.

Literally, tight ankle, wide forefoot, wide toes box, couple mm extra length. That is the million dollar boot. I don’t care how it closes. All we do bootfitting is tighten the rear foot and looosen the forefoot. All. Day. Long.

The Hawx ultra is the closest fit to that but the ramp down on the end of the toe box ruins the fit for many. It is the easiest to sell ski boot that I’ve had available to sell in twenty years. Of course the plastic is too thin though.

The revolution is in fit and nothing else. Fit is what people feel.

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Be patient. It's coming.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ULuHJgCos7A

The extra length?

As I said, the Hawx ultra fit is the best advancement in bootfitting in 15 years. I’m just blown away that others aren’t copying it.

Summary! : )
Golden says: nothing changed except 2 buckles are a strap now.

Florida says: better fit around the forefoot as the shell wraps around.