http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...7fa_fact_hersh
Scary Article in the new New Yorker. Even worse is that he got approval from the Congressional leadership.
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http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...7fa_fact_hersh
Scary Article in the new New Yorker. Even worse is that he got approval from the Congressional leadership.
I'm shocked........
the democratic leadership is even more pathetic then bush.
damn, long article.
interesting, not surprising though.
while i can see the justification for covert ops in iran, i dont think that it is in the interest of stabilizing the region. But i guess that is not really the goal.
It seems to me the US track record of successful covert operations isn't great. If we think the US policy in Iraq was a debacle, any attack on Iran would be a mistake of an order of magnitude greater in idiocy. Given our Commander-In-Chief, it's a mistake that he is capable of making in our behalf.
Geez, look at the geography of Iran. It may be easy to hit once by surprise. After that, it's pretty tough.
I heard Hersh on Fresh Air yesterday. His speculation was that Bush/Chaney will be more likely to go to war with Iran if it looks like Obama will be the next president. They think McCain will keep the regime change policy intact.
"President, Barack Obama, has said that he favors direct talks and diplomacy."
This is the guy so many of you are voteing for? he favors "Diplomacy" aka Spinning your wheels doing nothing about the situation. You may as well just bury your head in th sand.
Your all intelligent people how the fuck do you think Diplomacy is going to work with that nut case?
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/wp-c.../11/image4.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by freezorburn
http://eldib.files.wordpress.com/200...-khadafi-1.jpg
Not that I usually agree with Freezorburn's posts... but exactly what has the EU and UN gotten out of Iran in the past SEVEN YEARS OF DIPLOMACY? I'll tell you: Jack and Shit... and the Ayatollas had Jack beheaded so what does that leave you with?
Libya is a great example of reaction to US military force. That is what spurred on that bit of diplomacy. They saw what happened to Afghanistan and what was about to happen to Iraq. Libya isn't a powerful country like North Korea. The US wasn't overextended then as it was now. It is likely Qudafi would have given us the finger today.
North Korea does not even begin to compare to any other country on the planet. They are that different. Anyone who imagines there is productive diplomacy going on with NK is kidding themselves. There simply isn't a better solution to NK than to pay the blackmail. KJI's strategy is exactly what it always has been:
1. Build weapons
2. Rattle Saber
3. Demand the West prop up their regime in exchange for disarming
4. Pretend to abandon weapons program
5. Rinse, lather, repeat
The US can't possibly be planning a big ole ground invasion of Iran... so covert operations to foment revolution would be a nice alternative to air strikes or worst of all, a nuclear Iran.
Obama will CHANGE all of that, right???Quote:
Originally Posted by panchosdad
What nut case? Imadinnerjacket? He's got as much to do with running Iran as I do. He's a figurehead, makes 0% of the decisions, a lot like Dubya in that regard.Quote:
Originally Posted by freezorburn
A nuclear Iran, scary but inevitable. All of these oil producing nations see the handwriting on the wall. Sooner than later, a nuclear middle east will happen. The problem is putting that kind of power in the hands of nutjobs. I think the world would be better served by a world commision on nuclear power with inspection authority and investigative powers. Just a thought
You mean like the International Atomic Energy Agency?Quote:
Originally Posted by mrw
^^^^^^^
something a bit stronger with weight behind it
Attack Iran and accomplish what?
For those who seem to favor military action against Iraq, who has actually worn a uniform?
I did for nine years as a Navy pilot. I take it personally when I think military action is being taken as the first and only option.
Diplomacy may not work. Bypassing or even not considering diplomacy is a mistake. Really, the US cannot handle a sustained unilateral military campaign in Iran. Where will the assets come from? Abandon the status quo in Afghanistan. Abandon status quo in Iraq.
If Bush wants to go down as the worst President in American History, he can go ahead and take overt military action against Iran without provoking Iran to strike first.
How did the US defeat its biggest adversary? Time. That was the Soviet Union.
The Cliff Notes version: http://www.npr.org/templates/rundown...view=storyviewQuote:
Originally Posted by nick > jesus
Spinning your wheels and doing notheing has been our response to the deadliest attack on the US in our lifetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by freezorburn
listen to the operatives who are still frustrated that their incursions into Pakistan to actually go after the guy 7 group that attacked us are being thwarted by our preocupation with Iraq & Iran and the Democratization of the middle East.
At least Barack wants to go after the people who actually attacked us and put his head on a fucking pike instead of wasting trasure 7 blood in a country that is not a direct threat.
We contained a super power with nuclear weapons, you think we cannot contain a rogue state?
and dont play the "they will gve the technolog y to terrorists " card, pakastanis are already doing that.
If we would FORCE Israel to deal with the Palestinians in an equitable fashion, we could align ourselves favourably with what will be the most powerful group in the world....Islam.
Until then it will remain a mess in the mideast.
Ahh yes that unified Islamic frontQuote:
Originally Posted by Badgerman
I forgot about that homogenous group of folks.....
Hey hey now, that's enough of that crazy talk. Just because we enable and fund and cheerlead for a 35 year old bloody illegal occupation does NOT mean we have any say so about when it ends. None.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badgerman
Just more fuel on the fire. Cheney's stoking the flames nicely. Got a nice fire going. Just a matter of time before he's roasting marshmellows...
I know a special forces guy who speaks a bit of one of the Iranian dialects and he dropped off the radar a couple of months ago. Now I guess I know where he is...
Here we go again.
can we all spell "blowback"?
let's enrage all the wackos some more by invading Iran.
What if Russia and China decide to take an active role in defending an ally?
Listen, hoss, you just permanently disqualified yourself from further political discussion, because this shit is just laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badgerman
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woodsy
Maybe your right, But I think Iran is a big threat and terrorist are in Iran planning attacks against the US anyway.
A Nuc in the Hands of those fuck'in middle east religous wacko's is a scary thought. They will line up to blow themselfs up with as many innocent infedel women and children they can. Killing the innocent in the name of god.
No matter who wins the election the Middle east will stay a clusterfuck, Obama is more peaseful, Mc cain is more brutal. Unfortunatly History has proven Brute force gets quicker results. There may be no other way.
I realy hope we will never see a Nuc Explosion.
Listen, you'd better face reality HOSS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan Explosion
Islam is here to stay big time and to let 17million Jews be the rudder for our ship of diplomacy is pure folly.
I have a plan.
We give all of the Israelis a 2 week vacation to Texas. That will help the US economy. While Israel is deserted, we carpet bomb the entire middle east into a sheet of glass. We then send the jews home. The end.
Yeah, dude - I was listening to Hot Air the other day and they said that Bush has got Bin Laden stowed in the basement of tha Whitehouse!Quote:
Originally Posted by panchosdad
We don't have to worry tho becuase in 2012 the planets are gunna alighn and we'll all live in peace and the Bushies will be banished to Neptune!
Thanks again for another well reasoned Padded room response. Reading comprehension your strong suit?Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer
The terms "well reasoned" and "Padded Room" are mutually exclusive. Dumbass.Quote:
Originally Posted by panchosdad
How about we send them to florida and bomb BOTH!Quote:
Originally Posted by BlurredElevens
all the problems involving islam will vanish....like the muslims killing hindus in india, the muslims killing buddhists in thailand, muslims killing christians in indonesia,the muslims killing sihks in malasia, the muslims killing bahai's in iran, the arabs killing blacks in darfur, the muslims killing christians in nigeria,........ not to mention killing their own daughters and sisters for "honor"
Here's the thing - nuclear bombs are tough and expensive to make. They are best suited for threats than for use (like North Korea), especially use by a non-nation terrorist group who the bomb making nation couldn't claim as their own. Iran, or any country, giving an actual bomb to terrorists is not that likely. Maybe they'd share the blueprints, but then the terrorists still need to get a hold of the nuclear material.Quote:
Originally Posted by freezorburn
Loose nukes from Russia are the worse threat than a nuclear enabled Iran, but that's not the kind of enemy anyone can have an economy stoking war for.
Why does no one, anywhere seem to understand that all Iran needs is nuclear waist(sp?). Won't it be awesome when Hezbollah (wow, that was in Firefox's spell check) can make a Dirty Bomb?
Fuck you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badgerman
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuckathuntermtn
Why not be more pragmatic?
Arabs and Persians have the oil. Why cut our own throats by kissing Israels hiney?
Oh, and Fuck you too.
I like my Arab docs from Pakistan WAY better than any Jewish doc or attorney I've encountered.
No dirty bomb would be used on US if we had a balanced foreign policy with respect to Israel.
If Israel would cease expansionalist settlements it could help the situation immensely.
antisemite
Yeah, always the label thrown around by those feeling guilty.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jer
I never see much posted about Jewish terrorism:
Hamas: A Pale Image of the Jewish Irgun And Lehi Gangs
By Donald Neff
A photograph dated 1947 shows a poster issued by British police forces seeking 18 wanted Jewish terrorists from the Irgun Zvai Leumi and Stern Gang. Pictured at top left is Irgun commander and future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin (AFP Photo).
AS EASY as it is to dismiss clichés as banal and misleading, the troubling problem is that they often cloak an essential truth. Scoffs and derision often greet the cliché that “one man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter.” Yet freedom fighters is exactly how Israelis view the early Zionists who fought in 1947 for the establishment of Israel—and how Palestinians now consider their fighters resisting Israeli occupation.
The reality is that when faced with a superior military force, such as Britain possessed in 1947 and Israel does today against the Palestinians, terror is the underdog’s only viable weapon. Once a state has been established and legitimized, however, as in the cases of Israel and South Africa, the former “terrorists” tend to gain a veil of legitimacy as well. But legitimacy is now being denied Hamas. Even though Palestinians elected a Hamas-led government in free and fair elections, Israel denies it legitimacy on the grounds that Hamas is a terrorist organization.
Sixty years ago, however, at the time of the British Mandate, it was Jews in Palestine who mainly waged terrorism against the Palestinians. As Jewish leader David Ben-Gurion recorded in his personal history of Israel: “From 1946 to 1947 there were scarcely any Arab attacks on the Yishuv [the Jewish community in Palestine].”
The same could not be said for the Zionists. Jewish terrorists waged an intense and bloody campaign against the Palestinians, British, and even some Jews who opposed them leading up to the establishment of Israel.
The two major Jewish terror organizations in pre-independence Palestine were the Irgun Zvai Leumi—National Military Organization, NMO, also known by the Hebrew letters Etzel—founded in 1937, and the Lohamei Herut Israel, Fighters for the Freedom of Israel, Lehi in the Hebrew acronym, also known as the Stern Gang after its leader Avraham Stern, known as Yair, founded in 1940.
The Irgun was led by Menachem Begin, the future Israeli prime minister who was a leading proponent of Revisionist Zionism, the militant branch of Zionism pioneered by Vladimir Zeev Jabotinsky, which openly despised the Arabs and sought restoration of what it called Eretz Yisrael, the ancient land of Israel. By this was meant “both sides of the Jordan,” the Irgun slogan meaning all of Palestine and Jordan was the rightful home of the Jews.
Another belief of Begin’s was that of the “fighting Jew,” a romanticized idea expressed in Jabotinsky’s old Betar movement song of “we shall create, with sweat and blood, a race of men, strong, brave and cruel.” Israeli scholar Avishai Margalit translated the verse as “proud, generous and cruel,” adding: “Many are still waiting for the generous part to emerge.”
The Irgun was the dominant Jewish terrorist organization, both in size and the number and frequency of its attacks. Its most spectacular feat up to this time had been the July 22, 1946 blowing up of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, with the killing of 91 people—41 Arabs, 28 British and 17 Jews. Mainstream Zionists despised Begin and his Revisionists, although there was cooperation between the two on military matters. Ben-Gurion, the leader of mainstream Zionism, fought throughout his premiership with Begin.
The other major Jewish terrorist group, Lehi, was more extremist than the Irgun, claiming all the land between the Nile and the Euphrates as belonging to the Jews. When Jabotinsky declared a cease-fire in the fight against Britain and its mandate troops in Palestine during World War II, Stern broke with him and founded Lehi. Stern sought alliance with the Nazis, both because they shared an enemy in Britain and because Lehi shared Hitler’s totalitarian ideology. During the war Sternists openly celebrated Nazi victories on the battlefield.
An infamous document called the “Ankara Document” because it was found in the German Embassy in Ankara after the war, detailed Avraham Stern’s ideas “concerning the solution of the Jewish question in Europe.” It was dated Jan. 11, 1941. At the time, Stern was still a member of the Irgun, which he called by its initials, NMO. Wrote Stern: “The evacuation of the Jewish masses from Europe is a precondition for solving the Jewish question; but this can only be made possible and complete through the settlement of these masses in the home of the Jewish People, Palestine, and through the establishment of a Jewish state in its historical boundaries....The NMO...is well acquainted with the goodwill of the German Reich government and its authorities toward Zionist activity inside Germany and toward Zionist emigration plans....The NMO is closely related to the totalitarian movements in Europe in its ideology and structure.”
In the Partition period, Irgun had around 2,000 men, while Lehi had about 800. Though the memberships were comparatively small, the damage these two groups caused in inflaming animosity between Arab and Jew was considerable. When Stern was killed by British police in 1942, leadership of Lehi was shared; among the leaders were Nathan Yalin-Mor, one of the eventual killers of Count Bernadotte, and Yitzhak Shamir, another future prime minister of Israel.
Arab terrorists carried out some major operations as well, including the bombing of the Jewish Agency and the Palestine Post. But in contrast to Jewish violence, it was unorganized and episodic. As historian Michael C. Hudson noted: “Organized Jewish violence against the British and Arabs (exemplified by the Irgun’s bombing of the King David Hotel in 1946), however, was far more systematic and successful than that of the Palestinians, and the latter were unable to play a significant role in the final years of the Mandate.”
The Jewish Agency, as the official representative of the Jewish community, repeatedly denied any responsibility for the acts of the Irgun and Lehi, maintaining they were underground terrorist groups operating outside the law. However, there was close cooperation among Irgun, Lehi and the Haganah underground army under an agreement called the Hebrew Resistance Movement and aimed specifically against the British Mandatory government. It went into force in the fall of 1945, when “Irgun and Lehi accepted Haganah discipline in the conduct of all armed operations,” in the words of historian Noah Lucas.
By December 1947, British High Commissioner Alan Cunningham reported to London: “...the Haganah and the dissident groups are now working so closely together that the Agency’s claim that they cannot control the dissidents is inadmissible
Ok, jackass. Please tell me how aligning ourselves with a religious group that has literally ZERO unity, and has had infighting long before we existed, and will long after we're gone will resolve anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by Badgerman
But hey, USA #1, right, moron?
i can't say i'm surprised.
i'd bet my next paycheck that these covert operations began long before bush was elected and will continue regardless of who wins in november.
why? because the iranian leadership is a bunch of fucking whack jobs bent on dominating the middle east by hook or by crook.
The only whack jobs were by US. In 1953 we and the Brits overthrew their democratically elected leader because he wanted to renegotiate the oil contracts and we installed the Shah.Quote:
Originally Posted by 13
The resulting "blowback" was the Ayatollah and the seizing of the embassy hostages
The mideast would eventually reach a state of relative peace if we would stay out of their way...but NO....we have to start using covert operations again with the resulting resentment by the people who get handed a puppet government. These folks are not stupid and we will get the resultant "blowback" again because we fail to learn time after time.