anybody here a vegan?

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Originally Posted by Tippster

Because in our society Dogs are Pets, not food. Go to SE Asia and see how they feel about Fido. Hell, they may not be food but I've seen maybe one pure bred dog - read: pet - in Central America that didn't belong to an Anglo.

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"in our society". in our society a lot of things are stupid and pointless and make me really angry. and i'm not condoning eating dogs either.

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Originally Posted by adam

"prehistorical" (that phrase is so dumb)

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Nah-ah.
It just means in the days before (pre) people habitually recorded what happened (historical).
Cave paintings and Stonehenge being unfathomable, and all.
Don't mean to break your balls. You make some good points :cool:

and TJBrk
Didn't know you guys ate cow meat (udders)
Isn't beef just made from males ? Mmh, male-meat :tongue:

Man, this thread got me thinkin' bout how scrumptious an egg is still warm right from the coop. Fried please.

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Originally Posted by backpack

It all depends on why you're not eating said beef and pork. If it's for animal rights reasons, then yea, it seems silly not to go full on vegetarian, but if you're trying to cut out the least efficient meat producing animals &/or those that produce the most waste/pollution, it makes sense.

I, for one, am on the "free range beef on public land is bad" bandwagon, so beef tends not to be for dinner. I also find the waste produced by current factory pig farms to be horrible, so bacon is a delicacy that I rarely indulge in.

Oh, and no shrimp. Farm raised or wild caught, it's bad news.

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Free range beef, hell I'm eat mostly free range whitetail. If i didn't shoot it, I usually don't eat it. Now that's pure protein!

Good Luck,
Jay

20 seconds with google will give thousands of articles showing the common sense result that eating meat which contains lots of saturated fat massively increases the risks of heart disease, cancer, etc. Of course, scientific evidence of health benefits won't stop anyone from ranting about "what we are meant to eat". Google will also show that cardiovascular disease is increasingly common in young Americans, even teenagers.
"It is estimated from the third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III) (1988-1991) that 33% of the US population is obese, compared with 25% in NHANES II (1976-1980).1 Fatness is associated with a number of comorbidities, including several forms of heart disease. Although heredity explains 30% to 70% of cases of obesity, environmental contributions to the increasing prevalence of obesity must be sought since the gene pool has remained stable over the same interval. Diets high in fat (and calories)2 and a reduced expenditure of energy in the form of physical activity3 are the most likely explanations. "

"Eric Rimm, Sc.D., and his Harvard colleagues followed 43,700 middle-aged, male health professionals for six years. The more plant foods they ate--fruits, vegetables, and grains--the less likely they were to suffer heart disease. Compared with those who ate the fewest plant foods, those who at the most had 41 percent fewer heart attacks.[30]

Researchers at Loma Linda University in Southern California compared the health of 25,000 Seventh-Day Adventists, whose religion requires vegetarianism, with the health of similar meat-eating Americans. The Adventists sufferered 40 percent fewer heart attacks, and when they had them, their heart attacks occurred, on average, 10 years later in life. (They developed significantly less cancer as well.)[31]

British researchers placed flyers in health food stores around the U.K. and recruited 10,700 people who ate a “healthy diet.” Only about half were strict vegetarians, but the vast majority (even the 19 percent who smoked) ate a near-vegetarian diet with lots of fruit, vegetables, whole grains, and nuts. After 17 years, compared with the general British population, the self-styled healthy eaters had 24 percent fewer deaths from heart disease (and 32 percent fewer deaths from stroke and less cancer as well).[32]

New Zealand researchers compared the health of 6,115 vegetarians and 5,015 people who ate meat. After eliminating other risk factors for heart disease (smoking, etc.), the vegetarians were 28 percent less likely to develop heart disease (and 39 percent less likely to get cancer).[33]
“No question about it,” says Tim Beyers, M.D., a professor of preventive medicine at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver, “a plant-based diet with plenty of fruits and vegetables reduces risk of heart disease.”

http://www.newstarget.com/007237.html
A new study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows a doubling of the risk of colon cancer for people who are heavy consumers of red meat. More specifically, it shows that the risk doubles compared to those who consume smaller quantities of red meat.

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Originally Posted by tommyvee

20 seconds with google will give thousands of articles showing the common sense result that eating meat which contains lots of saturated fat massively increases the risks of heart disease, cancer, etc. Of course, scientific evidence of health benefits won't stop anyone from ranting about "what we are meant to eat". Google will also show that cardiovascular disease is increasingly common in young Americans, even teenagers.
"It is estimated from the third National Health and Nutrition Examination Survey (NHANES III) (1988-1991) that 33% of the US population is obese, compared with 25% in NHANES II (1976-1980).1 Fatness is associated with a number of comorbidities, including several forms of heart disease. Although heredity explains 30% to 70% of cases of obesity, environmental contributions to the increasing prevalence of obesity must be sought since the gene pool has remained stable over the same interval. Diets high in fat (and calories)2 and a reduced expenditure of energy in the form of physical activity3 are the most likely explanations. "

"Eric Rimm, Sc.D., and his Harvard colleagues followed 43,700 middle-aged, male health professionals for six years. The more plant foods they ate--fruits, vegetables, and grains--the less likely they were to suffer heart disease. Compared with those who ate the fewest plant foods, those who at the most had 41 percent fewer heart attacks.[30]

Researchers at Loma Linda University in Southern California compared the health of 25,000 Seventh-Day Adventists, whose religion requires vegetarianism, with the health of similar meat-eating Americans. The Adventists sufferered 40 percent fewer heart attacks, and when they had them, their heart attacks occurred, on average, 10 years later in life. (They developed significantly less cancer as well.)[31]

British researchers placed flyers in health food stores around the U.K. and recruited 10,700 people who ate a “healthy diet.” Only about half were strict vegetarians, but the vast majority (even the 19 percent who smoked) ate a near-vegetarian diet with lots of fruit, vegetables, whole grains, and nuts. After 17 years, compared with the general British population, the self-styled healthy eaters had 24 percent fewer deaths from heart disease (and 32 percent fewer deaths from stroke and less cancer as well).[32]

New Zealand researchers compared the health of 6,115 vegetarians and 5,015 people who ate meat. After eliminating other risk factors for heart disease (smoking, etc.), the vegetarians were 28 percent less likely to develop heart disease (and 39 percent less likely to get cancer).[33]
“No question about it,” says Tim Beyers, M.D., a professor of preventive medicine at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver, “a plant-based diet with plenty of fruits and vegetables reduces risk of heart disease.”

http://www.newstarget.com/007237.html
A new study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows a doubling of the risk of colon cancer for people who are heavy consumers of red meat. More specifically, it shows that the risk doubles compared to those who consume smaller quantities of red meat.

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I can also say that if I didn't eat meat, it would be far harder for me to keep any kind of muscle mass, and I would be in far worse shape overall. I believe there is a stronger link between excersize and good health than there is between meat and poor health.

Broad scope statistics can often mean very little. There is a huge difference between eating good lean meat, along with plenty of other good stuff, like fruits vegis and grains, gettting plenty of excersize, or just eating fast food and sitting on your ass. Most americans do not get close to enough excersize, the fact that they also eat meat is coincidental.

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Originally Posted by backpack

Oh, and no shrimp. Farm raised or wild caught, it's bad news.

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why is shrimp bad? I understand that most any farmed seafood is bad news, but wild? Messing with the food chain? Enlighten me, I eat lots o' scrimps.

Hey, that's a serious debate going !
My 0.2$ :
Do not cut anything from your food intake. Au contraire, have the most various diet possible.
Avoid processed food. Contrary to popular belief, obesity is increasing in Yurp too, because of processed foods and soft drinks. Buy raw products and cook it yourself, drink wine because it tastes good, water if you're thirsty. Avoid industrial condiments, sauce. Do your mayonnaise yourself ...

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Originally Posted by tommyvee

http://www.newstarget.com/007237.html
A new study published in the Journal of the American Medical Association shows a doubling of the risk of colon cancer for people who are heavy consumers of red meat. More specifically, it shows that the risk doubles compared to those who consume smaller quantities of red meat.

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Yes a humans intestinal track is way to long to process a lot of meat so it just rots in there. A dog or other carnivore on the other hand has a short intestinal tract which is the reason Fido needs to drop a bomb in the yard just after eating.

^That's ridiculous.^

We aren't "Carnivores," We're omnivores - like bears. If our bodies were designed to process purely vegetable matter we'd have 3 more stomachs and would chew cuds.

To counter all the studies mentioned above please look into the cancer and heart disease statistics of the Inuit. You may be enlightened by what you'll find.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

^That's ridiculous.^

We aren't "Carnivores," We're omnivores - like bears. If our bodies were designed to process purely vegetable matter we'd have 3 more stomachs and would chew cuds.

To counter all the studies mentioned above please look into the cancer and heart disease statistics of the Inuit. You may be enlightened by what you'll find.

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The 'seventh day adventist' study was based on going against unhealthy people that were primarily meat eaters and did not have a balanced diet.

Statistics are bullshit.

All kinds of health sites scream that FISH IS BAD! FISH IS BAD! MERCURY! Yet probably 3 meals a week for me are fish. (Swordfish, Tuna, Thresher, Cod, Haddock, Grouper, Winter Flounder, Bluefish, etc.) I've consumed probably 10x the safe levels in the past year yet I have yet to show any signs even post bloodwork of any mercury concentrations? Funny that.

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Originally Posted by Tippster

^That's ridiculous.^

We aren't "Carnivores," We're omnivores

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Exactly we can't process "lots of meat".

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Originally Posted by leroy jenkins

I can also say that if I didn't eat meat, it would be far harder for me to keep any kind of muscle mass, and I would be in far worse shape overall. I believe there is a stronger link between excersize and good health than there is between meat and poor health.

Broad scope statistics can often mean very little. There is a huge difference between eating good lean meat, along with plenty of other good stuff, like fruits vegis and grains, gettting plenty of excersize, or just eating fast food and sitting on your ass. Most americans do not get close to enough excersize, the fact that they also eat meat is coincidental.

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That's pretty much how I see it too. I think that cutting out overprocessed, fake food and fast food probably had a bigger difference on these study groups than just cutting out good lean meat, eggs, etc. I'm not advocating Atkins by any means, but I think eating moderate amounts of lean protein from flesh sources isn't bad for you at all. There are also studies out there showing the processed soy stuff that people use to get protein without eating meat isn't good for you either. Everyone references Asian diets, but forgets that they're not eating processed soy powder and crap, but soy as it is grown.

I think the average American's problem is that not only are they not exercising, but the majority of foods they eat are more chemicals and crap than real food. I was looking at some Healthy Choice frozen beef and broccoli and figured that should be reasonably good for you, right? The first ingredient is "Processed Beef Product" which had at least a dozen ingredients, most of which I could not identify. WTF? And then everything else that most people consider normal food has trans-fats in it, along with a deceptive label saying there are 0g of trans fats per serving. Nevermind that it's like the 2nd ingredient on the label. Just make the serving sizes small enough that the trans-fats don't count....:rolleyes:

I think you nailed it.

Adam-

God has given us sole dominion over the animals, what we do with them is definitionally right.

:FIREdevil

AG- homerun.

As for the argument that meat production is an inefficient means of delivering calories: No Sale.

It is silly to reduce all food production to the sole "most efficient" delivery/growth model, this violates our basic omnivorous physiology.

The waste issue is a big issue but one that is by NO MEANS insurmoutable and tagging only meat production for this flat ignores the issues on the agriculture side of the house.

You could always use the Bible thumping bullshit that my 7yos after school care taker uses on my 7yo which is that God put animals on earth to eat.

I just did thanks.

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Originally Posted by lemon boy

I just did thanks.

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Thank God.

It doesn't matter if being vegetarian is good or bad for you. We all die eventually. What is undoubtedly true, though, is that vegetarians have a significantly lower quality of life. Not only do they not get to have the experience of eating tasty meat, they are unable to share meals fully with others which is one of the best parts of being alive. They are likely to suffer socially, creating tensions and resentments with loved ones who often have to go out of their way to accommodate what is often nothing more than a SELF RIGHTEOUS PICKY EATER.

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Originally Posted by DisArray

It doesn't matter if being vegetarian is good or bad for you. We all die eventually. What is undoubtedly true, though, is that vegetarians have a significantly lower quality of life. Not only do they not get to have the experience of eating tasty meat, they are unable to share meals fully with others which is one of the best parts of being alive. They are likely to suffer socially, creating tensions and resentments with loved ones who often have to go out of their way to accommodate what is often nothing more than a SELF RIGHTEOUS PICKY EATER.

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Thankfully most of them are moving to Williamsburg.
The rest of the world is safe.

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Originally Posted by Woodsy

so Tipp man whats your answer to the 100of thousands of gallons of shit/feces that pollute the country side and rivers?

How about the antibiotics and insecticides required to raise pigs & chickens in their shoulder to shoulder constions of modern "farms"

and LB, deserts are not the place to raise livestock nor alfalfa, despite the subsidies to the contrary.

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You are right, it sure is a good thing they don't dump thousands of tons of pesticides and fertilizers on the plants that vegetarians it, and that they don't end up in rivers and stream, and have tons of by product that ends up as animal feed.

Philippe has one of the few logical responses on this thread. Eat a variety of foods, avoid overly processed foods, and wash it done with red wine. Sounds good to me.

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What is undoubtedly true, though, is that vegetarians have a significantly lower quality of life.

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Depends if you consider colon cancer, saturated fat deposited in your arteries trashing your cardiovascular system, and obesity a "higher quality of life"
Clearly there is an interaction between fat consumption, exercize, and obesity. So the Amish eat lots of butter and other saturated fats, but have low heart disease because they are constantly physically active.
How many people in the US live like the Amish, with no labor-saving devices? Even weekend warrior skiers may be depositing lots of fat in their arteries during their time in the cube.
I don't qualify as a vegetarian because I eat fish (health benefits of Mediterranean diet well established), but personally I feel that not eating meat for the last 25 years has improved my quality of life, improving my health and fitness.
The weird, threatened, defensive, passive/agressive tone of the meat defenders suggests a some buried conflict.

And, Lemon Boy

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God has given us sole dominion over the animals, what we do with them is definitionally right.

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please stay away from the goats and sheep, even if it is "definitionally right" in your book, I still think you should focus at least your sexual appetites on your own species.

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Originally Posted by tommyvee

The weird, threatened, defensive, passive/agressive tone of the meat defenders suggests a some buried conflict.

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yeah, why is it that this vibe comes from all the vegan/veggies? Wierd.

I think vegans taste great!!

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Originally Posted by tommyvee

Depends if you consider colon cancer, saturated fat deposited in your arteries trashing your cardiovascular system, and obesity a "higher quality of life"
Clearly there is an interaction between fat consumption, exercize, and obesity. So the Amish eat lots of butter and other saturated fats, but have low heart disease because they are constantly physically active.
How many people in the US live like the Amish, with no labor-saving devices? Even weekend warrior skiers may be depositing lots of fat in their arteries during their time in the cube.
I don't qualify as a vegetarian because I eat fish (health benefits of Mediterranean diet well established), but personally I feel that not eating meat for the last 25 years has improved my quality of life, improving my health and fitness.
The weird, threatened, defensive, passive/agressive tone of the meat defenders suggests a some buried conflict.

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generalizations are awesome.
I bet you're an emo hipster who wears ugly fucking clothes and whines about how hard your life is and how meat is murder huh?