To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

A possible explanation on why breakthrough cases happen and why vaccines still offer protection from severe infection (rarer breakthrough hospitalizations tend to be older people with health issues):

Vaccines that are injected into arm muscles aren’t likely to be able to protect our nasal passages from marauding SARS-CoV-2 viruses for very long, even if they are doing a terrific job protecting lungs from the virus.

Vaccines that are injected into the arm have done a spectacular job at preventing severe disease and death. But they do not generate the kind of protection in the nasal passages that would be needed to block all infection. That’s called “sterilizing immunity.”

Florian Krammer, a vaccinologist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital, thinks existing vaccines likely induce high enough levels of circulating antibodies early after vaccination that some of them end up in the mucus membranes of the nose and throat. But as antibody levels start to drop in the months after vaccination, that early nasal protection seems to wane with it — especially in the face of the onslaught of the Delta variant, he suggested.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/...asal-vaccines/


Back when the Covid vaccines first began widespread distribution most health experts were skeptical of full sterilizing immunity. The fact that intramuscular injection protects lungs, but not always the upper airways is representative of how other vaccines work.

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Originally Posted by huckbucket

Waning protection with mRNA vaccines against Delta. Story is evolving, but it might be as low as 50% after 6 months.

https://twitter.com/EricTopol/status...14071861936141

Edit to add: Protection here is against infection and not severe disease

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Just read an article about how the vaccines were designed to stop severe disease, not infection. Stopping infection was a bonus.

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Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

Just read an article about how the vaccines were designed to stop severe disease, not infection. Stopping infection was a bonus.

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As multiverse rightly points out in the post above yours, intra-muscular delivery was an unlikely path to blocking infections. Yet another reason why vaccines are just ONE of the tools used in pandemics to mitigate spread, viral evolution and severe cases.

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Originally Posted by Skidog

I agree, with a huge BUT. They basically tell pregnant women not to take meds of ANY type, unless absolutely necessary. All kinds of other weird shit too. Fish (mercury), caffeine, cold meds, the list goes on. Each woman has to make THEIR choice.

While I personally trust the vaccines they are still in emergency auth state. Not fully FDA approved.

ETA: if I was still considering children I would have to give a good amount of though to asking my wife to take a vaccine during pregnancy. If not vax I'm would basically take all other extreme covid type precautions.

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I get what you are saying. It's not unreasonable, but I think your outlook matches the old recommendation that had low amounts of pregnancy specific data. Now we have a gajillion vaxxed preggers without finding a great concern for complications.

The original recommendation was:
"COVID risk for pregnant moms is HIGH, vaccine is likely much lower risk, talk to your provider about getting a shot."

Now there is much more data so the updated recommendation is:
"COVID risk for pregnant moms is HIGH, vaccine is certainly very LOW risk, so get a shot."

I've seen the bad things that happen to COVID expecting moms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SKIP IN7RO

[The surf instructor posted about his Christian faith online, wondering in a November 2020 Facebook post whether “there is a type of Great American Renaissance following the years of Covid, censorship, and political divisiveness... that will empower each person’s heart to come alive and explode with innovative ideas, new business models, new music sounds and never seen ways to build an amazing community?”

Just a month earlier, Coleman had celebrated the birth of the couple’s youngest child, Roxy Rain, in an Instagram post.

“While waiting for her to come, I kept feeling this sense that she was going to be born at a very pivotal time in history and that she would represent a dawn, or even awakening, to years of great blessing for our family and nation,” he wrote. “Another picture that came to me was of God reaching down into a river bed and picking up a small stone (rock), examining it intently. Just as David had done before slaying Goliath, God examined the stone and was confident that it was just the perfect one for the battle. Although it was small, smooth and somewhat harmless looking, he knew that it would become great when placed into the palm of a skilled hand. My declaration over Roxy Rain is that she has been hand picked by God to slay the giants in the land.”]

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JHFC.

https://bbts1.azureedge.net/images/p...7898a2c87b.jpg

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Summit

I get what you are saying. It's not unreasonable, but I think your outlook matches the old recommendation that had low amounts of pregnancy specific data. Now we have a gajillion vaxxed preggers without finding a great concern for complications.

The original recommendation was:
"COVID risk for pregnant moms is HIGH, vaccine is likely much lower risk, talk to your provider about getting a shot."

Now there is much more data so the updated recommendation is:
"COVID risk for pregnant moms is HIGH, vaccine is certainly very LOW risk, so get a shot."

I've seen the bad things that happen to COVID expecting moms.

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Listen to this guy, we’ve seen the complications with pregnant Covid patients, not good.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

My wife and I went in for a Covid test in preparation for some upcoming travel and I was pretty amazed how smoothly it went. It was a drive-up site and we drove right up to the person administering the test without having to wait. Woke up this morning to see the test results are already available and the info says the results were reported at 1:30am, so about nine hours after we were tested. I figured with the uptick in cases there would be a lot more people getting tested, but I guess not enough to affect turnaround time.

The other nice thing is they didn't jam the swab way down your nose, just went around each nostril for 10-15 seconds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KQ

Posting for the shear stupidity not because he's a Trump supporter.

Hear why Trump supporter says he won't get the vaccine

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https://c.tenor.com/mv8WDfaaqZkAAAAC...rmind-meme.gif

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Originally Posted by old_newguy

I know we like to spend our time here bagging on unvaccinated people, but is there any new data on the risk to kids from COVID?

Has the risk of death or hospitalization increased with Delta or are we just seeing the inevitable result of more cases?

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Delta replicates faster, resulting in higher viral burdens earlier post exposure. Thus is leading to more symptomatic infection in those who are exposed, a couple limited studies suggest this is less than 10% asymptomatic in unvaxxed. Including children.

Delta has shifted the age profile significantly, more infections in kids and young adults than the 65+ group though the latter remains the most susceptible to severe infection and death.

Tldr Delta causes more infections and symptomatic disease, more kids needing hospitalization and ICU, but kids still are much less at risk for death.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by huckbucket

As multiverse rightly points out in the post above yours, intra-muscular delivery was an unlikely path to blocking infections. Yet another reason why vaccines are just ONE of the tools used in pandemics to mitigate spread, viral evolution and severe cases.

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Having followed this thread, this is something I, a complete dummy, have been aware of. One would assume the CDC has been aware of it. So, why were they so quick to change their masking recommendations? Given the current state of things, it seems borderline incompetent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by skaredshtles

https://c.tenor.com/mv8WDfaaqZkAAAAC...rmind-meme.gif

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Education & reason is going to work right?

This was that very representative interview:

Interviewer asks question

Guy gives some nebulous, poorly reasoned answer

Interviewer presents fact(s) that challenge that position

Guy says "no it's not" delving deeper and deeper into fantasy-land

Lulz: "the poor guy just wants to be heard, understood".

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bagtagley

Having followed this thread, this is something I, a complete dummy, have been aware of. One would assume the CDC has been aware of it. So, why were they so quick to change their masking recommendations? Given the current state of things, it seems borderline incompetent.

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Because everyone was yammering to get back to normal and if we had 70%+ of people vaccinated it would have stopped this surge. We fell short. I guess the people wanting to get back to normal and do away with masks didn’t really want that.

On another note, WA’s vaccine mandate for HC workers only allows for religious exemption. I wonder how many people will claim religious exemption? No mainstream religion denounces vaccination and some consider it your duty to get vaccinated and protect the herd. It’s going to be interesting. Trying to fight this in the courts while the pandemic has it’s way is full idiocy.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Quote:

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Originally Posted by The AD

My wife and I went in for a Covid test in preparation for some upcoming travel and I was pretty amazed how smoothly it went. It was a drive-up site and we drove right up to the person administering the test without having to wait. Woke up this morning to see the test results are already available and the info says the results were reported at 1:30am, so about nine hours after we were tested. I figured with the uptick in cases there would be a lot more people getting tested, but I guess not enough to affect turnaround time.

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Was that at a Walgreens or RiteAid?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carl_Mega

Education & reason is going to work right?

This was that very representative interview:

Interviewer asks question

Guy gives some nebulous, poorly reasoned answer

Interviewer presents fact(s) that challenge that position

Guy says "no it's not" delving deeper and deeper into fantasy-land

Lulz: "the poor guy just wants to be heard, understood".

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Seriously - when the following answer is provided for ANY presentation of facts/reason, what hope is there for that person?

https://media.giphy.com/media/6JB4v4xPTAQFi/giphy.gif

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ted Striker

Was that at a Walgreens or RiteAid?

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Northwest Hospital (UW Medicine).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KQ

Posting for the shear stupidity not because he's a Trump supporter.

Hear why Trump supporter says he won't get the vaccine

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All hail the GQP! MAGA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MultiVerse

A possible explanation on why breakthrough cases happen and why vaccines still offer protection from severe infection (rarer breakthrough hospitalizations tend to be older people with health issues):

Vaccines that are injected into arm muscles aren’t likely to be able to protect our nasal passages from marauding SARS-CoV-2 viruses for very long, even if they are doing a terrific job protecting lungs from the virus.

Vaccines that are injected into the arm have done a spectacular job at preventing severe disease and death. But they do not generate the kind of protection in the nasal passages that would be needed to block all infection. That’s called “sterilizing immunity.”

Florian Krammer, a vaccinologist at the Icahn School of Medicine at Mount Sinai Hospital, thinks existing vaccines likely induce high enough levels of circulating antibodies early after vaccination that some of them end up in the mucus membranes of the nose and throat. But as antibody levels start to drop in the months after vaccination, that early nasal protection seems to wane with it — especially in the face of the onslaught of the Delta variant, he suggested.

https://www.statnews.com/2021/08/10/...asal-vaccines/


Back when the Covid vaccines first began widespread distribution most health experts were skeptical of full sterilizing immunity. The fact that intramuscular injection protects lungs, but not always the upper airways is representative of how other vaccines work.

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So mix the vaccine with cocaine, I see no downside

Quote:

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Originally Posted by funkendrenchman

And is that like everyone’s right to drink and drive? Or is it like everyone’s right to shoot another person?

Rights stop when they affect other’s health and safety.

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Perfect! What about my freedom to not get sick. Or healthcare workers having to care of you? How about if you don't want to vaccinated then don't go to the hospital when you get sick?

Can’t we just spray this into the air in crowded spaces?
Or like those perfume spritzer ladies in Macy’s?
Or ChEMtrAiLs!!!!

https://www.technologynetworks.com/b...mission-351955

(Props to SS)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rideit

Can’t we just spray this into the air in crowded spaces?
Or like those perfume spritzer ladies in Macy’s?

https://www.technologynetworks.com/b...mission-351955

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Chemtrails

I am sure this has been discussed, but why don’t all of the health insurance companies, Medicaid, Medicare, VA, etc, just threaten to drop anyone who is unvaxxed without a valid health reason?
Or, at the very least, offer a benefit discount to those that do?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rideit

I am sure this has been discussed, but why don’t all of the health insurance companies, Medicaid, Medicare, VA, etc, just threaten to drop anyone who is unvaxxed without a valid health reason?

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That is a *VERY* good free-market solution.

:fmicon:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rideit

I am sure this has been discussed, but why don’t all of the health insurance companies, Medicaid, Medicare, VA, etc, just threaten to drop anyone who is unvaxxed without a valid health reason?
Or, at the very least, offer a benefit discount to those that do?

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Sick people = money right?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rideit

I am sure this has been discussed, but why don’t all of the health insurance companies, Medicaid, Medicare, VA, etc, just threaten to drop anyone who is unvaxxed without a valid health reason?
Or, at the very least, offer a benefit discount to those that do?

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I think it's coming? Maybe the federal government needs to stop springing for all testing? This was an interesting read: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/o...accinated.html

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

I think it's coming? Maybe the federal government needs to stop springing for all testing? This was an interesting read: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/08/02/o...accinated.html

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Grumpy Cat says “GOOD”