Berthoud Photo/Conditions Thread (2010-2011)

Not playing devil's advocate,but these 2 guys put themselves in a place they didn't want to be,not that that matters.The conditions were whiteout,and they were riding an area that they knew well.There are circumstances that I won't get into right now,but will wait for more info to come out.I hope that this tragedy will make even more people up there to take 2 seconds and realize how many more lives than there own that this would affect.I would have left him in the car if he would have been with me, without gear.RIP Jeff.

I feel badly for Jeff, but he probably understood the risks or at least should have. The poor dog was just following his master and having a good time, no doubt, just like his master.
Sucks on both accounts.

This is some bad news.

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Originally Posted by JaytaeMoney

That's what I figured but then soylent green said "quoted for emphasis" so that got me confused. It seemed like two people were fine with skiing that area with no gear, which I thought was very odd.

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I was just trying to bring attention to the statement. Monday was ugly weather up there. Hells to 7 mile crosses LOTS of avalanche terrain. I wouldn't have gone that way on Monday with full avvy gear.

so sad they didn't have gear yet were frequent explorers on the pass. especially since Miller's pal owns the Divide Board Shop in WP. Seems like he'd be in-the-know and have access to the requisite safety gear. Just sad.

sad deal on the dog too. This whole thing makes me feel sick..ughhh

To the friends and family of the slider who died, my condolences.


A few weeks ago, driving past Wolf Creek I picked up a boarder who'd just come out of the woods. Halfway to Pagosa Springs he calls his friend, his freind he'd been riding with in the backcountry.

Just prior to me picking him up. Seemed he had to get to work, and his friends dog had slowed him down. So he abandoned his friend.

I know that 99.9999% of the time this is acceptable. But we pack gear, we find partners and we practice with it for that other .0001% of the time that it's needed. Failure to do so gets people killed, leaves behind lifetimes of grief and threatens future access.

I'm trying very hard not to second guess this accident. From what I've read, there was a small slide, someone was gone and their friend went and did two more laps. Neither of them had avie rescue gear.

I'll shut up now.

It's not just the gear. Everyone knows that if it gets to the point where you need the gear, shit has already gone wrong. What's important is the knowledge. I have no idea what the deceased guy knew, but he clearly miscalculated the risk, which is equally as important as knowing the terrain, the weather, the snow pack, etc.

Absolutely, gear is not a panacea. I'm talking about an attitude.

If you can abandon a friend on a slack country run just because you're late for work, that kind of lax attitude can lead to bad things. Creating a mindset not of fear, but of awareness is the key.

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Originally Posted by stupendous man

It's not just the gear. Everyone knows that if it gets to the point where you need the gear, shit has already gone wrong. What's important is the knowledge. I have no idea what the deceased guy knew, but he clearly miscalculated the risk, which is equally as important as knowing the terrain, the weather, the snow pack, etc.

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maybe my biggest objection to the no-gear crowd in the BC is that even if you're a PHD in the weather/snow pack and slides - you're fucking worthless in any emergency rescue situation without a beacon and shovel and the ability to use them.

Whether it's intended or not, it's a big middle finger to your fellow BC riders.

Unless that big brain of yours can move a ton of snow off a body - carry a shovel.

And talking about it on TGR is pretty worthless, because everybody I've ever skied with from the board is well versed and prepared.

There's no suggestion his friend abandoned him. As I understood it, the friend didn't have the means to easily hike uphill or search, so he did laps in the area looking for him. If that understanding is correct (and it may not be, we don't know all the facts), you can criticize for lack of knowledge and lack of gear and poor decision making, but don't say that his friend abandoned him.

Truth is, we don't know all the facts.

I think he was saying that the kid he picked up at Wolf Creek had abandoned his buddy because he had to go to work.

Yes. The wolf creek rider just didn't feel like waiting around 15 minutes to make sure his friend (and his dog) were safely out of the woods. I would not want to rely on him on any excursions.

As for the BP incident, I do not know the facts and am trying not to second guess.

At an earlier season refresher course, there was a demo of avie rescue dogs. I asked the trainer if she took them skiing with her. She said no, dogs do not handle backcountry skiing well. (This last might need to be a new thread!)

Very sad...

With gear, the search wouldn't have gone on for three days.

With gear maybe his friend could have found him the next pass through. Maybe he would have been alive... or the dog.

People who cannot get back up the hill to help (snowboarders, skiers with alpine bindings, AT/tele skiers who don't bring their skins) scare me as much as the people without gear.

ETA: I finally made a thread about this [ame="http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212979"]PSA: When in the BC, *ALWAYS* bring your skins! (free stoke included) - Teton Gravity Research Forums[/ame]

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Originally Posted by Summit

Very sad...

With gear, the search wouldn't have gone on for three days.

With gear maybe his friend could have found him the next pass through. Maybe he would have been alive... or the dog.

People who cannot get back up the hill to help (snowboarders, skiers with alpine bindings, AT/tele skiers who don't bring their skins) scare me as much as the people without gear.

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All good points. The last one seems to be de rigeur at Bert anymore.

I'll be up tomorrow, like 11-3 or so if anyone wants to get out. Could also do Butler or Trelease or Mayflower or whatever, pm if interesting.

The CAIC report has them traversing under the cliffs near high trail trees on the way to 7 mile. I thought the initial talk was Fingers. Anyone know where exactly it was?

Traversing under steep terrain is at least as bad as skiing it.

^yeah I have a feeling the entered near shop chutes or something and went to that midpoint traverse then went across, under the fingers.

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Originally Posted by bamboocoreONLY

^yeah I have a feeling the entered near shop chutes or something and went to that midpoint traverse then went across, under the fingers.

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So that would mean his buddy went all the way down 7 Mile ... twice ... got a ride back up and dove in again? Pass was closed at 11:30 am that day, so how was he getting rides? Those are lengthy laps.

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Originally Posted by smitchell333

Traversing under steep terrain is at least as bad as skiing it.

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Really? Traversing under steep terrain in sketchy conditions certainly isn't good, but I would think one would be way more likely to trigger a slope to slide by skiing it than by traversing under it.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Really? Traversing under steep terrain in sketchy conditions certainly isn't good, but I would think one would be way more likely to trigger a slope to slide by skiing it than by traversing under it.

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The trigger can be anywhere near the slope. You can trigger a slide above you just by cutting out the structural support of the slope above (think concavity). Someone was killed last year like this (I'll look for the report). I think the CAIC forecast for today discusses this happening at Butler Gulch. When I was doing avy 1 in RMNP we triggered a collapse (didn't slide because of slope angle) above lake Haiyaha just by entering the area.

(e: for content)

New to the forum and Berthoud. Would love to get out with someone tommorow. I have all my own gear and know how to use it. Shoot me a PM if anyone is interested.

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Originally Posted by fluxrad

The trigger can be anywhere near the slope. You can trigger a slide above you just by cutting out the structural support of the slope above (think concavity). Someone was killed last year like this (I'll look for the report). I think the CAIC forecast for today discusses this happening at Butler Gulch. When I was doing avy 1 in RMNP we triggered a collapse (didn't slide because of slope angle) above lake Haiyaha just by entering the area.

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I know that. Wasn't questioning that you could trigger a slide from below. Heck, you can remotely trigger a slide from hundreds of yards away! That doesn't mean that walking near a steep slope is as likely to trigger it as skiing that slope. So, what I was questioning was the notion that traversing under a steep slope was at least as bad as skiing it. If I absolutely had to somehow navigate past a steep slope in questionable conditions, I'd certainly choose traversing below it over skiing down it (assuming that I somehow could choose one or the other as my risky maneuver).

If I'm wrong in that, I'm all ears.

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Originally Posted by sealtele14

New to the forum and Berthoud. Would love to get out with someone tommorow. I have all my own gear and know how to use it. Shoot me a PM if anyone is interested.

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PM sent. Hope to see you out there

I was out today for a couple hours in the 110s, etc. It was pretty touchy for sure. Lots of appetizing stuff to ski but I have seats three rows behind the Laker bench tonight and didn't want to waste them whilst sitting under 5 feet of snow.

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Originally Posted by JoeStrummer

I was out today for a couple hours in the 110s, etc. It was pretty touchy for sure. Lots of appetizing stuff to ski but I have seats three rows behind the Laker bench tonight and didn't want to waste them whilst sitting under 5 feet of snow.

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I hope that you get to give Kobe a good "No means no!" jeer while there.

Today was really good, very few people out. Floral was the place to be, Plunge was good to. 90's was really windy and slaby. There was sluffing in Floral but no cracks or whomphing (didn't hear one all day). Good to see JBSki again.

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Originally Posted by Danno

Really? Traversing under steep terrain in sketchy conditions certainly isn't good, but I would think one would be way more likely to trigger a slope to slide by skiing it than by traversing under it.

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Well I'm not sure that you'd be more likely to trigger a slope by traversing underneath it, but were a slope to trigger I'd probably prefer not to be underneath all of the sliding snow. Even a small slide could bury you deep if you're at the bottom.

Thinking of doing dawn patrol tomorrow. Anyone else going to be headed up that way? Either way, I'll be on Lhasa's with a red jacket.

It was dumping this morning. Super fluffy.

Saw some cracky wind affected snow out of the shelter of the trees.

Danger is definitely elevated.

Dangerous to very dangerous avalanche conditions have developed and will continue through the weekend.

Hopefully someone will read this and make smart choices.

DEEP today. Probably at least 10 inches since this morning. Definitely some cracking in spots though, be careful out there.

very low visibility out there but tea cup did slide

So I gave 3 gaper knuckle-draggers a ride up to the top of the pass from the Empire side around 10:45 this morning. When we get to the parking lot they hop out of the truck and tell me thank you. So I say, "No problem guys. It's good for my karma. I trust that everyone is wearing beacons, right???" The first 2 kind of snicker at me and the third, the one wearing wet blue jeans, says "What's a beacon?"

But, I did manage to get 3 laps of over the head blower in Floral Meadows before 10am. So that day wasn't a total loss...

it was super good today. Some of the craziest wind formations on top of 80s and 90s that I've ever seen... Amazing to see some of the no gear fools up high today as well....

up on berthoud last Wed. Jan. 19, 24" of Pow. Be careful we lost a snowboarder and dog on Mon. Jan. 17 on steeps just west of summit.

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Originally Posted by Cruiser

So I gave 3 gaper knuckle-draggers a ride up to the top of the pass from the Empire side around 10:45 this morning. When we get to the parking lot they hop out of the truck and tell me thank you. So I say, "No problem guys. It's good for my karma. I trust that everyone is wearing beacons, right???" The first 2 kind of snicker at me and the third, the one wearing wet blue jeans, says "What's a beacon?"

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While I think this might be viewed by a lot at Berthoud as a dick move, I think there is a lot a validity to the argument. The "No beep, no jeep" move says to someone "Not only do i not agree with you being an uneducated user, I'm not going to make it any easier on you". Knowledge and experience dont do shit for moving snow in a rescue scenario.

Good shit, no beep, no jeep. I try to make it a policy not to pick up douchers without gear. Not trying to be an asshole, but it puts people like me and drt who are up there 4-5 times a week in danger, cause eventually those people are going to get in trouble and expect us to help out. It definitly seems like the shit show is growing on berthoud. Hard to go up there on weekends anymore.

Yep, today was something else. Not only did we see a bunch of people up there without any gear, but i also ran into a dad with his two younger sons, with no gear. And this is just 3 days after a death up there. Do these people not have internet or a tv? Because i swear it's been all over the news that those two didn't have any gear on at berthoud pass. ha ha ha.... and that's why I love my weekdays up there.

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Originally Posted by ullrdrool

Good shit, no beep, no jeep. I try to make it a policy not to pick up douchers without gear. Not trying to be an asshole, but it puts people like me and drt who are up there 4-5 times a week in danger, cause eventually those people are going to get in trouble and expect us to help out. It definitly seems like the shit show is growing on berthoud. Hard to go up there on weekends anymore.

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Funny. When I lived in the valley awhile back, we only rode up there on the weekends, just to steer clear of crowds. Now, somedays, it's just as bad.

I dunno. I'm kind of torn. The reason I ski backcountry in the first place is because there are no rules. I go where I want when I want. I'm educated though, and I make a sincere effort not to get myself killed. Then you have the classic goobers who are building kickers in Hoop Creek and lapping the pass. I appreciate Ullrdrool's argument that these folks could possibly get into a bad spot and hurt themselves or others and that is a real risk. But at the end of the day, if you don't want to take the risk of getting hurt by some no-gear gapers in the bc then maybe you need to find somplace a bit more remote to do your skiing. It's not like there is a great shortage of decent non-resort skiing around the front range.

Where does that leave us in terms of "no beep. no jeep"? You decide for yourself. I'm going to keep picking people up when they need a ride. I'd appreciate it if they'd do the same for me. No one has ever given me a test before allowing me into their car on Berthoud, or anywhere else that I've hitch hiked for that matter, and I'd like to see that continue. I mean, god forbid somone stop to pick me up and ask to see my Sierra Club card (cuz they advocate for the forest and whatnot) before they'll give me a ride. That happens and I'm gonna have to pull out my snowmobile registration card out of my wallet and tell them to get fucked.