F1 Fans, what is going on???

**vano** · 10-05-2006, 06:23 AM

What is up with the new trend with the F1 drivers quitting and moving over to NASCAR? Juan Pablo Montoya and Jacques Villeneuve, both solid and at times very competitive drivers are leaving F1 for NASCAR.

Going from the world's most technologically advanced, fastest cars with huge R&D budgets with 1 billion world wide viewers, the absolute pinacle of racing to driving nearly identical, badly engineered shit buckets in circles while sporting a sweet Walmart decal.

It can't be for the fans, unless a bunch of beer guzzling toothless alcoholics and women in cutoff jeans and black eyes is a turnon to JPM and VL.

It can't be for the glory, since it requires more skill and focus to make a midpack finish in F1 than it does to win NASCAR.

It can't be the lifestyle - hmmm... travel the world from Italy to Germany to Brazil to Japan, or traveling to all the great US shithole towns.

It must be the money. Sellouts.

**philippeR** · 10-05-2006, 06:47 AM

As I see things, neither JPM nor JV were your typical good F1 drivers. They are real good drivers, but just that. You need much more to be a top F1 racer. You need to be able to drive the team on the right direction, you must be 110% commited to give the team the more precise feedback on the car, tell them what car you want, go the factory, talk to the engeneers, test different set ups and new parts all the time... What Schumi did (with a little help from Todt, Brawn and others) with Ferrari. They put the team back on track.
You can't just show up every saturday, sit in the car and drive it the best you can, even if you're a hell of a driver. Not on the long run anyway.
Other example comes to mind, like Jean Alesi or Nigel Mansell. They could make wonders with a bad car. But they couldn't make it better or make the team to make it better.

I think JPM and JV will fit quite well in NASCAR. It's technicaly less challenging. You need balls and driving skills, but not the kind of commitment and leadership you must demonstrate in F1.
That, and NASCAR is closer to home and their racing backgrounds.

**vano** · 10-05-2006, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by philippeR

As I see things, neither JPM nor JV were your typical good F1 drivers. They are real good drivers, but just that. You need much more to be a top F1 racer.

Ummm... JV won the F1 championship in 1997 if memory serves, that would make him more than just a really good driver according to your logic. It is questionable whether you have to do all the things you are saying drivers do to be considered good and win F1 championships. Alonso was young, inexperience and not a particularly strong leader when he won last year. Most F1 drivers join and leave the F1 world with not even half the success that JPM and JV have seen.

**4matic** · 10-05-2006, 07:56 AM

Euro follow the leader happy with a points finish uncompetitive snobbery F1 fans aside..

The driver can make more money in Nascar. He will get a salary near his F1 amount and the opportunity for endorsements is far greater in Nascar. For example, if JPM is succesful, which he will be because he is a great driver, the endorsement opportunities to hispanics in the USA and world wide is enormous. Plus, JPM keeps a house in Florida and likes living here. If you heard his comments.

And about the qulity of the drivers in F1? Yes at the top they are very good. But you're telling me Takuma Sato is a great driver?

Enjoy your parades interrupted with a pit stop competition or fuel strategy.

**ski_adk** · 10-05-2006, 08:01 AM

I wonder if it has anything to do with the fact that in NASCAR there are as many as 20-30 lead changes per race, as opposed to just 1-5 in an F1 race.

**cinnepa** · 10-05-2006, 08:15 AM

unfortunately $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ talks

**ski_adk** · 10-05-2006, 08:18 AM

Have any of you been to a NASCAR race? If you have, then you know that it's a lot more exciting than the 3 hour logo display you find during the telecast.

**vano** · 10-05-2006, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by 4matic

Enjoy your parades interrupted with a pit stop competition or fuel strategy.

Even still, I find F1 far more exciting than 20 identical cars with virtually the same setup, same exact tires and subpar drivers going in circles. But that is personal preference. F1 is not just about bumber to bumber racing on the day of the event, its tire manufacturers competing with each other customising tires per event, its engine manufacturers comepting, its chassis guys competing, test drivers, engineers, pit crews. Car prep & design, Friday practice runs and Saturday qual runs are as important as race day - its just a different feel from Nascar, thats all. This season of F1 has been very very exciting by F1 standards with two great drivers tied for 1st going into 2 races.

Like Jeff Gordon said after getting out in JPMs F1 car after an F1/Nascar PR show a few years back "This thing brakes so hard that I almost blacked out."

**pechelman** · 10-05-2006, 08:26 AM

I bet JPM and JV recently watched Talladega Nights together. I bet they decided to become gay lovers and take over the nascar circuit with their femininity.

Also I thought Schumi was the highest paid athlete in the world a few years back. Doesnt that mean that the most money can be had in F1? Or was that 75+million a year before endorsements?

Im not a fan of nascar, infact it can be totally retarded and I agree with you 150% about the technology side as I used to be the chief engy for a forumla style open wheel car myself. JPM came from a series that they used to race A LOT more than F1. Maybe he just wants to drive more and see more action before he gets older. Maybe he realizes he and his F1 team didnt have what it takes to bring home a championship? Maybe he thinks he can dominate in NASTYCAR. Should make for an interesting season in both series.

**philippeR** · 10-05-2006, 08:27 AM

JV indeed was '97 champion.
But not that easily and with a car far superior to the rest of the field. Those where the years when the Renault powered cars crushed the rest of the grid. In 96 he had been dominated by Damon Hill who was not an all-time great driver either (though he was a real nice guy, with a motorcycle background. I was very happy of his title).
In the following years, with BAR or Sauber BMW, he didn't demonstrate the kind of leadership a Schumacher or a Senna did.
I believe Alonso is in another league, but I may be proved to be wrong.

Don't get me wrong. I don't say Sato is a great driver. But he will never be world champion. As most of F1 drivers. Villeneuve and Montoya had their chance and they missed it. They're has-beens now. Neither of them did really dominate their team mates either. They are very good drivers, but not among the very few that have a consistent chance to win the championship each year.

I don't say either that the average F1 driver is better than the average NASCAR driver. But that, as far as I can tell, to stay on top, F1 requires a broader range of skills than sheer speed and aggressivity.

**4matic** · 10-05-2006, 08:28 AM

Originally Posted by vano

Even still, I find F1 far more exciting than 20 identical cars with virtually the same setup, same exact tires and subpar drivers going in circles. But that is personal preference. F1 is not just about bumber to bumber racing on the day of the event, its tire manufacturers competing with each other customising tires per event, its engine manufacturers comepting, its chassis guys competing, test drivers, engineers, pit crews. Car prep & design, Friday practice runs and Saturday qual runs are as important as race day - its just a different feel from Nascar, thats all. This season of F1 has been very very exciting by F1 standards with two great drivers tied for 1st going into 2 races.

Like Jeff Gordon said after getting out in JPMs F1 car after an F1/Nascar PR show a few years back "This thing brakes so hard that I almost blacked out."

Jeff Gordon would be a podium racer in F1, as would Kyle Bush and Carl Edwards. Even Bernie Ecclestone says the F1 cars are too easy to drive. "it looks like they are driving to the store for a loaf of bread".

F1 has a single tire manufacturer for next year and will be using the alternate tire compund like US ChampCar.

Nascar teams have some of the best chassis and engine engineers available: Penske, Cosworth, etc.

Nascar is low tech by design.

**mitch buchannon** · 10-05-2006, 08:29 AM

I did just a teensy bit of Googling and found that JPM's reported salary at Mclaren for 2006 (before he got canned) was $13.2M, whereas it seems many top Nascar racers are in the $3-5M range. This is independent of endorsements, but I know Schumi reportedly pulls something around $75M a year all in.

Money doesn't seem to be the likely factor, given that F1 involves traveling the world with supermodels and the finest appointments and Nascar involves spending a lot of time in rural South Carolina.

However, JPM and JV are not competitive in F1 at this point. JPM won a race last year, but his general attitude and discontentment were not jiving well with Bruce Mclaren and the boys.

Edit #1: I can't believe Sato even got the superlicense necessary to race f1.

Edit #2: I'm not dissing on ol' nascar at all. I had the fortune of being in the pit crew for Hendrick's Racing in an ARCA race in Chicago a couple years back and it was a blast. Total opposite of F1 or MotoGP or any of the goodness. The euro racing leagues are my favorites, but I can't deny that nascar can be pretty ok.

**4matic** · 10-05-2006, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by pechelman

IDoesnt that mean that the most money can be had in F1? Or was that 75+million a year before endorsements?
.

MS is the highest salaried athlete. The difference is endorsements in F1 typically go to the team. In the USA and Nascar a driver can usually make additional endorsement deals on their own outside the team.

**f2f** · 10-05-2006, 08:32 AM

philippeR is right: both villeneuve and montoya are played out in F1, so they opted to go to nascar where they could still have a carreer lasting 20 years or more with a friendlier home-crowd (neither ended up being much liked in F1 at the end). you need to be Schumacher to be successful at an old age in F1, and even he is retiring at 38.

nb: fangio started winning at the age of 50 and won 5 world cups, but that was half a century ago.

edit: centuries somehow became decades.

**f2f** · 10-05-2006, 08:34 AM

Originally Posted by mitch buchannon

However, JPM and JV are not competitive in F1 at this point. JPM won a race last year, but his general attitude and discontentment were not jiving well with Bruce Mclaren and the boys.

to jive with bruce JPM would have to be dead

**4matic** · 10-05-2006, 08:36 AM

Originally Posted by f2f

philippeR is right: both villeneuve and montoya are played out in F1, so they opted to go to nascar where they could still have a carreer lasting 20 years or more with a friendlier home-crowd (neither ended up being much liked in F1 at the end). you need to be Schumacher to be successful at an old age in F1, and even he is retiring at 38.

nb: fangio started winning at the age of 50 and won 5 world cups, but that was half a decade ago.

Coulthard is not played out? Button?

**pechelman** · 10-05-2006, 08:38 AM

Originally Posted by 4matic

Nascar teams have some of the best chassis and engine engineers available: Penske, Cosworth, etc.

Nascar is low tech by design.

Id like to stress this point. I know A LOT of the engineers in NASCAR. More than I care to mention, and they're all really sharp smart people. They know their shit. The older generation at NASCAR, not so much, theyre more backyard good-ole-boy type "engineers" who rely on their massive amount of experience to dictate their changes. Most dont understand why things work better. I know this for a fact as I know many people in the industry as Ive stated. In particular, a really good friend of mine from my racecar days is now one of the cheif engine guys for a major nascar team. He tells me these stories all the time about the older folks.

Nascar isnt low tech by design, but by rules.

**f2f** · 10-05-2006, 08:39 AM

Originally Posted by 4matic

Coulthard is not played out? Button?

what do they have to do with the topic? they're not going to nascar.

**mitch buchannon** · 10-05-2006, 08:40 AM

Originally Posted by 4matic

Coulthard is not played out? Button?

Coulthard needs to just go away. His patronizing bullshit attitude is just not necessary at that team. RBR has enough dough to get a driver that's not a douchebag.

**4matic** · 10-05-2006, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by f2f

what do they have to do with the topic? they're not going to nascar.

If they aren't played out in F1 then neither are JV and JPM.

**f2f** · 10-05-2006, 08:46 AM

oh, if you don't like my wording say so, don't try to pick a fight

**vano** · 10-05-2006, 08:47 AM

I agree that JV and JPM are both in the twilight of their F1 careers. There are many other F1 drivers that spend years doing average drivers but never consider moving to Nascar. They would rather move to other racing series. So Nascar becomming a viable option for F1 drivers is a novelty and interesting since its a pretty far from F1 both in racing and "cultural" terms.

Last I checked (about 2 years ago) Schumy was the world's top paid "athlete" pulling in over 100 mill per year with all the endorsements and stuff.

**mitch buchannon** · 10-05-2006, 08:48 AM

Oooh... a fight like Jeff Gordon and Matt Kenseth?

**f2f** · 10-05-2006, 08:52 AM

vano, europeans have had the option to do indycar forever, but very few chose that, instead sticking to the DTM cirquit in europe. now with nascar being much more popular and paying much more, one or two europeans may go there, but i somehow think it's not going to be a mass migration of F1 retirees. there's plenty of car racing left in europe for them to do.

**pechelman** · 10-05-2006, 08:52 AM

I think an interesting point to make is anytime NASCAR goes to the glenn, invetiably there are some teams who bring in drivers from ALMS such as Boris Said since the nastycar folks suck at turning both ways.

Of course I've heard that NASCAR drivers turn right a lot when the car is loose.