PARK CITY (and all) SKI PATROLLERS DESERVE MORE.

[Ski220]

From the NY Times article:

Vail Resorts bought Park City in 2014 and combined it with a neighboring ski resort called Canyons the following year. The Canyons ski patrol unionized in 2001, and when the two ski patrols merged, Park City patrollers voted to join the union, which is now part of the Communications Workers of America.

Per Goggle; The Canyons at Park City (PCMR) ski patrol union joined the Communications Workers of America (CWA) in 2016.

Don't want to muck up the thread, but I believe the issue of pro union or anti union for a ski patrol is a legit topic and
deserves to be discussed.

In my experience, the larger the corporation and farther removed upper management is from the workers, the more necessary a
union is. And Vail is certainly the largest and most corporate operator in the industry.

As to whether CWA is instigating the work stoppage to further their agenda, that's questionable, but debatable. In the end it is
the local members voting whether to walk or not.
CWA certainly sees itself as a progressive organization out to unionize America. Right or wrong, that's an opinion probably
formed by personal experiences.
As to who gets hurt the most ? Having gone through multiple work stoppages, it's not the company (in my perspective). You
never make up for lost wages. Although with "GoFundMe" nowadays and the industry differences this might be different then my
experiences.

Full disclosure: I was a CWA local 1298 member for 29 years.
I fully support the PCMR professional ski patrol in their struggle.

[neufox47]

The question is, who is paying for the strike now and who will pay if the patrollers make significant gains.
A) The shareholders
B) The executives
C) The customers

I'll give you all 3 guesses and tell you it's not A or B. Good luck.

In order for C to be true Vail needs to be selling an inelastic product or it needs to be selling its product for significantly less than the alternatives. And no economist is arguing that skiing is inelastic. This is a common misconception though that I often hear whenever people discuss workers making more. Companies are not guaranteed their profit percentage.

[Woodsy]

the only people skiing pcmr are people who booked vacations months ago or bought an epic pass months ago. No one is shelling out (maybe a few) for lift tickets and no one is bailing on non refundable flights, hotels and epic passes after they have planned this vacation for months.

Agreed and that's part of model. Day tickets aren't supposed to be sold, but their price needs to be such that they drive people to buy epic passes instead and that in turn drives people to other "epic" mtns where vail can drive revenue & show usage.

My family got caught up in that when wife's dad used to have annual conference in Beaver Creek late 2010s
Epic passes were less than 3/ 4 days of tickets so we had them fir a few years.
Skied Sunnapee, Mt Snow, Hunter, etc because we could. I even skied PCMR for first time in decades when I was out & saw how they incorporated ParkWest/Wolf mtn/Canyons

[Trackhead]

the only people skiing pcmr are people who booked vacations months ago or bought an epic pass months ago. No one is shelling out (maybe a few) for lift tickets and no one is bailing on non refundable flights, hotels and epic passes after they have planned this vacation for months.

Probably true but not everyone fits that customer mold. I just paid $400 for two tickets at Snowbird with my kid. We travel a bit to ski and those prices are hard to accommodate. Epic/Ikon don’t work for where we live and time we have. We drive, stay in a truck camper. My dad did the same for us growing up, but back then, adjusted for inflation, tickets were far far less.

[skysos]

A question for the PCMR locals who have been around before and after Powdr fucked up their lease renewal…

Mt Bachelor aka Mt Brokenchair is my home hill. Powdr has it up for sale. Vail and Alterra are the two obvious suitors.

I have heard 3rd hand that PCMR has been (up to now) run much better under Vail than under Powdr.

Anybody care to opine?

I sorta think I’d rather be Ikonic than Epic (for the broader array of resorts) but Mt Brokenchair is so fucked up that maybe even Vail would be better?

[/digression]
TIA

As long-time visitors to PCMR and The Canyons my perspective is that the 2 resorts were much more fun and were distinct individual experiences under their previous owners. Now they are just one huge pile of the same exact thing with the same Vail culture.

As aging more and more casual skiers the main impact we noticed was less grooming on both sides. Vail does the bare minimum to get a couple of major groomed runs off of each lift.

I did some thinking about Vail buying Bachelor last week and I don't think they will. The townies from Bend demand a lot from the resort, and Vail probably won't want the PR nightmare of managing every little issue that comes up with the collection of outspoken people there that want it run a certain way. Alterra would be a lot better. Given the current labor situation I think it's even less likely now.

BTW, as a shout-out to patrollers on the Canyons side, they did a great job getting my wife down off of North Bowl on 9990 with an ACL injury years ago. Thanks!

[old goat]

In order for C to be true Vail needs to be selling an inelastic product or it needs to be selling its product for significantly less than the alternatives. And no economist is arguing that skiing is inelastic. This is a common misconception though that I often hear whenever people discuss workers making more. Companies are not guaranteed their profit percentage.

It's the customers getting hurt now--the people who booked vacations and are getting screwed by PC. Pass prices will go up. This time next year the share price will be up. The execs probably sold their stock well ahead of the strike and will buy it back at its low. Companies may not be guaranteed their profit percentage but in the skiing business, as in many businesses these days, consolidation has led to megacorps that don't compete on price. Look at the price gouging that companies recently engaged in under the guise of "inflation".

[TahoeBC]

Dam shame it’s come down to this

[da klixter]

Years ago, talk on the street was " if it's tourist season, why can't we shoot 'em?". Vail Inc. didn't get the joke.

CK

[XavierD]

It's the customers getting hurt now--the people who booked vacations and are getting screwed by PC. Pass prices will go up. This time next year the share price will be up. The execs probably sold their stock well ahead of the strike and will buy it back at its low. Companies may not be guaranteed their profit percentage but in the skiing business, as in many businesses these days, consolidation has led to megacorps that don't compete on price. Look at the price gouging that companies recently engaged in under the guise of "inflation".

Why do you think the stock price will be up in a year? Seriously. There is no guarantee sales or margin will go up. They are fucking this up and pissing customers off, when they report a serious drop in pass renewals the stock will likely go down. Fuck, it’s likely going to go down in anticipation of lower returning sales.
Also, there are restrictions on executives selling and buying stock and they are required to disclose the sale/purchase in a scheduled manner. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MTN/...-transactions/

Vail clearly does compete on price and value. It’s fucking luxury recreation; if they price it past perceived value people won’t buy it. I’m guessing a lot of families who are split on skiing vs beach for Christmas vacation will be choosing Cabo next year.

Do you really think the executives are just hanging out in Denver right now laughing and smoking cigars while counting their cash?

[Conundrum]

They’re probably not laughing. But yes to the other stuff.

[MakersTeleMark]

It pretty pathetic that I'm considering buying MTN as a hedge against real world experiences, but there is a tipping point where it's a lose lose, so finding a good entry has been difficult.

[Meadow Skipper]

Why do you think the stock price will be up in a year? Seriously. There is no guarantee sales or margin will go up. They are fucking this up and pissing customers off, when they report a serious drop in pass renewals the stock will likely go down. Fuck, it’s likely going to go down in anticipation of lower returning sales.
Also, there are restrictions on executives selling and buying stock and they are required to disclose the sale/purchase in a scheduled manner. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MTN/...-transactions/

Vail clearly does compete on price and value. It’s fucking luxury recreation; if they price it past perceived value people won’t buy it. I’m guessing a lot of families who are split on skiing vs beach for Christmas vacation will be choosing Cabo next year.

Do you really think the executives are just hanging out in Denver right now laughing and smoking cigars while counting their cash?

As I see it, the main drawback to this thought is that an awful lot of Epic pass holders don’t know about this strike and probably weren’t at PCMR to see the fuck ups. I have seen a number of social media post from people that knew saying that most of the people they’ve talked to at other Vail resorts have no idea about this shitshow.

Just sayin’.

[AdironRider]

I think a common thread on this board is just how out of touch most of us are with what the average 3.5 day a year skier actually thinks.

[yeahman]

As I see it, the main drawback to this thought is that an awful lot of Epic pass holders don’t know about this strike and probably weren’t at PCMR to see the fuck ups. I have seen a number of social media post from people that knew saying that most of the people they’ve talked to at other Vail resorts have no idea about this shitshow.

Just sayin’.

My brother has a condo at PC... he'll be going there in a couple weeks. Didn't have a clue about the strike when I asked him.

[Meconium]

So what/is the actual tourist vibe over the past week? The local bars selling more alcohol?

[axebiker]

^^^This is a big part of the problem. EPIC & IKON "skiers" that only ski a week each year. The mega's have done an absolutely amazing disservice to "the industry", which is another thing I hate to call the sport we all love.

I'm not sure how much longer I'll be buying more than one pass of any type. I have two season passes to my locals, and the Indy. Indy is great, but it has it's drawbacks, and I just can't bring myself to buy any of the other big passes, because I just don't/can't support the consolidation that really just benefits property owners and developers. At the end of the day, I'm not even sure many of these corporations care about skiing at the end of the day, and they sure as hell don't care about whether or not it'll be affordable to anyone but the 2%'ers within the next decade...if that.

[SnowMachine]

So what/is the actual tourist vibe over the past week? The local bars selling more alcohol?

Per my IG feed, they were not stoked.

[SnowMachine]

Why do you think the stock price will be up in a year? Seriously. There is no guarantee sales or margin will go up. They are fucking this up and pissing customers off, when they report a serious drop in pass renewals the stock will likely go down. Fuck, it’s likely going to go down in anticipation of lower returning sales.
Also, there are restrictions on executives selling and buying stock and they are required to disclose the sale/purchase in a scheduled manner. https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/MTN/...-transactions/

Vail clearly does compete on price and value. It’s fucking luxury recreation; if they price it past perceived value people won’t buy it. I’m guessing a lot of families who are split on skiing vs beach for Christmas vacation will be choosing Cabo next year.

Do you really think the executives are just hanging out in Denver right now laughing and smoking cigars while counting their cash?

I agree. I was commenting this weekend that I'm amazed that the purely recreational skiers are willing to subject themselves to the shenanigans (parking reservations, 7am arrivals, hours of standing in line, insane food/beverage prices, etc).

We had the family conversation that maybe next year this pair of weeks is time to ditch town.

[east or bust]

At the end of the day, I'm not even sure many of these corporations care about skiing at the end of the day, and they sure as hell don't care about whether or not it'll be affordable to anyone but the 2%'ers within the next decade...if that.

MTN isn’t a ski company. They’re a hotel/hospitality company that owns some ski resorts.

[Meconium]

Unfortunately, I don't IG. https://townlift.com/2025/01/data-re...during-strike/

[axebiker]

MTN isn’t a ski company. They’re a hotel/hospitality company that owns some ski resorts.

I think you quoted the wrong guy. I mentioned nothing about MTN.

[LeeLau]

Old goat has it wrong. XavierD has it right.

MTN doesn't compete with other ski areas. MTN competes with activities other than sliding on snow. Activities like gaming, hockey, soccer.

MTN has a high PE ratio and is in the business of delivering a discretionary recreational product to customers. When seasons passes renewals drops (as they have over the past 2 years) that business model of a big cash float up front looks quite vulnerable

[XavierD]

As I see it, the main drawback to this thought is that an awful lot of Epic pass holders don’t know about this strike and probably weren’t at PCMR to see the fuck ups. I have seen a number of social media post from people that knew saying that most of the people they’ve talked to at other Vail resorts have no idea about this shitshow.

Just sayin’.

I get that not everyone reads everything, but there was a feature in the NYT this morning on it, as well as coverage on CNN, CNBC, etc. outside local coverage in SLC and Denver. I’ve seen it come up on social media from communities who are skiing-adjacent at best. We saw a drop in returning pass purchases following the 21-22 season disaster. Issues in 21/22 weren’t just limited to park city, but did result in some very public commitments to increasing labor compensation. We could see that happening again.

[muted reborn]

As I see it, the main drawback to this thought is that an awful lot of Epic pass holders don’t know about this strike and probably weren’t at PCMR to see the fuck ups. I have seen a number of social media post from people that knew saying that most of the people they’ve talked to at other Vail resorts have no idea about this shitshow.

Just sayin’.

Agreed. All of the PC rooms in town were booked this holiday. All the people who won't come back next year in protest will most likely be 100% replaced by other ignorant Epic pass holders.

[east or bust]

I think you quoted the wrong guy. I mentioned nothing about MTN.

I mean, in a thread about a dispute between Vail Resorts and PCSP what do you think would be inferred by “these corporations?”