Bitcoin....who's gotten into it?

[Bunion 2020]

Sitting on dollars or Bitcoin doesn’t provide yield.

I do not believe that he said it does. IMO what he wrote was there are some trading strategies that allow for the generation of income from BTC aside for "the line goes up".

However those are a lot more complex than what a lot of people have the skills for and they may involve much more risk than many people realize.

Thanks LL

[J. Barron DeJong]

I do not believe that he said it does. IMO what he wrote was there are some trading strategies that allow for the generation of income from BTC aside for "the line goes up".

However those are a lot more complex than what a lot of people have the skills for and they may involve much more risk than many people realize.

Thanks LL

Right. But saying you can invest your Bitcoin in ways that provide yield (with some associated risk) is different than saying Bitcoin provides yield. The Bitcoin itself is not the investment in that case.

[LeeLau]

I do not believe that he said it does. IMO what he wrote was there are some trading strategies that allow for the generation of income from BTC aside for "the line goes up".

However those are a lot more complex than what a lot of people have the skills for and they may involve much more risk than many people realize.

Thanks LL

No problem Bunion.

It certainly is more complex than simply buying stocks. It is however something that's common enough that there's Covered Call ETFs the primary driver of which is yield.

Eg I own XOM. At the price I bought it yields 6% dividends pa. Selling calls against XOM yields another approx 4- 5% pa. One Covered Call ETF I know holds XOM and probably does the same thing I do but with a professional manager. I'd bet that given enough time Covered Call ERFs will incorporate crypto

As for risk, same as most other things
- tax exposure to capital gain
- commissions
- underlying asset drops in price

That's all I can think of.

[frorider]

underlying asset drops in price

So line has to go up?

[LeeLau]

So line has to go up?

CCs work well for yield if asset rises or declines slowly or best if stagnant. How slow depends on how much yield one wants to get

[couloirman]

….for it to be the best version of money…. wouldn’t…. people… be using it as currency….

Tricky little tid bit there….


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When’s the last time you used gold as currency? Which was supposedly what out is currency was backed by for a very long time

[J. Barron DeJong]

When’s the last time you used gold as currency? Which was supposedly what out is currency was backed by for a very long time

Yeah, it turns out that handcuffing yourself to gold is actually bad for the economy.

[couloirman]

And by your logic so is buying lottery tickets. Somebody just made 1.3 Billion on a 3 dollar ticket.

Bitcoin is nothing like a lottery ticket. Once the lottery is drawn, and you didn’t win your ticket is worthless. Bitcoin has a value that people are willing to pay for it Any time of day any day of the year. This is nothing like the lottery. If bitcoin doesn’t have inherent value, then neither do stocks, yet both of them are some of the best money making tools of all time.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Bitcoin is nothing like a lottery ticket. Once the lottery is drawn, and you didn’t win your ticket is worthless. Bitcoin has a value that people are willing to pay for it Any time of day any day of the year. This is nothing like the lottery. If bitcoin doesn’t have inherent value, then neither do stocks, yet both of them are some of the best money making tools of all time.

Jesus. We’re doing this again?

Stocks give you ownership in a company that has capital and current/future operating profits. Bonds are a promise the a company or government will pay you back more than you lent, and that money comes from their profits.

Bitcoin is neither of those things.

[MakersTeleMark]

Synthetics, man. Can you even get your head around it before you post more bs?

[bobz]

Synthetics, man. Can you even get your head around it before you post more bs?

Wait, are we still talking about baselayers?

[subtle plague]

Wait, are we still talking about baselayers?

Considering mtm I'd say opioids.

Gesendet von meinem Pixel 9 Pro mit Tapatalk

[nickwm21]

Bitcoin is nothing like a lottery ticket. Once the lottery is drawn, and you didn’t win your ticket is worthless. Bitcoin has a value that people are willing to pay for it Any time of day any day of the year. This is nothing like the lottery. If bitcoin doesn’t have inherent value, then neither do stocks, yet both of them are some of the best money making tools of all time.

My left big toe nail is fucking disgusting - but I bet I could sell it to someone…

We know BTC’s market value. What is its intrinsic value?


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[LeeLau]

My left big toe nail is fucking disgusting - but I bet I could sell it to someone…

We know BTC’s market value. What is its intrinsic value?


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I bid one duck

[J. Barron DeJong]

Synthetics, man. Can you even get your head around it before you post more bs?

Do you care to explain? Preferably in a way in which Bitcoin itself is the investment, not just that it has market value which can be put to work in the same way that dollars can.

[Bunion 2020]

I think you explained it to yourself pretty well and you don't like the answer. What could possibly go wrong with leveraging something so volatile.

So be it.

Has there been a thread concerning AI, Data Center growth and the electricity that the two require? And how long til all that is left of this world is a whole bunch of Data centers run by robots that serve AI so it can create an electronic reality world?

Produced by Google AI

The rapid growth of Artificial Intelligence (AI) is directly linked to a significant increase in electricity demand due to the expanding need for data centers to power AI workloads, with predictions showing a potential doubling of data center power consumption by 2030, primarily driven by the energy-intensive nature of generative AI models like ChatGPT; this could lead to potential power shortages if not addressed with sustainable energy solutions and infrastructure upgrades.
Key points about AI and data center electricity consumption:

High demand for processing power:
AI algorithms, especially complex generative models, require massive computational power, leading to increased data center usage and electricity consumption.

Data center expansion:
To accommodate the growing AI workload, data centers are rapidly expanding, requiring more power to operate a larger number of servers.
Impact on grids:
The surge in data center power needs could strain existing electricity grids, especially in areas with high data center concentration.
Concerns about sustainability:
The growing energy footprint of AI raises concerns about carbon emissions, prompting the need for renewable energy sources to power data centers.

Specific examples:

Gartner prediction:
Gartner predicts that power consumption for data centers running AI-optimized servers could increase 2.6 times by 2027, potentially leading to power shortages in some regions.

Goldman Sachs analysis:
Goldman Sachs research suggests that data center power demand could increase by 160% by 2030 due to the rise of AI.
Deloitte forecast:
Deloitte estimates that AI data centers could consume around 90 terawatt-hours of electricity annually by 2026, representing a significant portion of total data center power consumption.

Potential solutions:

Energy efficiency improvements:
Optimizing data center hardware and software to reduce energy usage per computation.

Renewable energy sources:
Utilizing solar, wind, and other renewable energy sources to power data centers.
Liquid cooling technologies:
Implementing advanced cooling systems to manage heat generated by high-performance computing hardware.

And then we can all go inside and ski powder for eternity or until the sun explodes.

Have a nice day.

[bennymac]

I bid one duck

That’s disgusting. I mean how can someone drive a cybertruck and not have a personalized plates

[PeachesNCream]

I’ve got an optimistic take that the power needed for AI, quantum computing, and bitcoin could actually be a good thing. The power supply we have now isn’t going to cut it for these huge needs and the big tech companies know it. They’re investing in nuclear power which I am a big proponent of. Without this need, idk if we’d go down the path of nuclear power due to financial barriers, big tech is one of the only ones that has the money to do it.


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[Bunion 2020]

OK, fair enough. Call me a Luddite but who really REALLY "needs" this stuff? I don't want to derail from HODLing and making big killings but. Has all the emphasis on connectivity and E-social interaction improved life on this rock? Elon and Vivek think so.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I think you explained it to yourself pretty well and you don't like the answer. What could possibly go wrong with leveraging something so volatile.

So be it.

The reason I don’t like the answer is that it still doesn’t explain how Bitcoin itself is an investment.

Like, maybe I get a hot tip about a startup in Europe that I should invest in. In that case I may need to convert USD to Euros so that I can make the investment. But the Euros themselves aren’t the investment, and holding Euros doesn’t provide any expected return.

Maybe Bitcoin opens investment opportunities that can’t be made directly with USD, but it’s not the Bitcoin that’s the investment in that case. And just holding Bitcoin has a negative expected return.

I’m also somewhat skeptical that the Bitcoin investments are providing good *risk adjusted* returns, but it’s at least possible.

[couloirman]

The reason I don’t like the answer is that it still doesn’t explain how Bitcoin itself is an investment.

Like, maybe I get a hot tip about a startup in Europe that I should invest in. In that case I may need to convert USD to Euros so that I can make the investment. But the Euros themselves aren’t the investment, and holding Euros doesn’t provide any expected return.

Maybe Bitcoin opens investment opportunities that can’t be made directly with USD, but it’s not the Bitcoin that’s the investment in that case. And just holding Bitcoin has a negative expected return.

I’m also somewhat skeptical that the Bitcoin investments are providing good *risk adjusted* returns, but it’s at least possible.

I just think you're missing the forest for the trees. Don't try to make sense of bitcoin as something that you personally understand the value in or not. It is a financial product that goes up and down in relatively predictable ways that can be exploited if you see the patterns at the right time. It also might end up being a long term store of value if you buy into Michael Saylor's reasoning, but all I know is pattern recognition has been very good to me this year when it comes to swing trading bitcoin, and I don't care if it eventually goes to zero cause it sure aint zero right now, and all the arguments like youre making are fine if youre wondering whether or not to park a lump sum for decades but misses out on some of the best opportunities for portfolio enhancement we have ever seen.

[skaredshtles]

I just think you're missing the forest for the trees. Don't try to make sense of bitcoin as something that you personally understand the value in or not. It is a financial product that goes up and down in relatively predictable ways that can be exploited if you see the patterns at the right time. It also might end up being a long term store of value if you buy into Michael Saylor's reasoning, but all I know is pattern recognition has been very good to me this year when it comes to swing trading bitcoin, and I don't care if it eventually goes to zero cause it sure aint zero right now, and all the arguments like youre making are fine if youre wondering whether or not to park a lump sum for decades but misses out on some of the best opportunities for portfolio enhancement we have ever seen.

Is it any wonder some of us are like, "Nah, Brotato, I'm good"?

[J. Barron DeJong]

I just think you're missing the forest for the trees. Don't try to make sense of bitcoin as something that you personally understand the value in or not. It is a financial product that goes up and down in relatively predictable ways that can be exploited if you see the patterns at the right time. It also might end up being a long term store of value if you buy into Michael Saylor's reasoning, but all I know is pattern recognition has been very good to me this year when it comes to swing trading bitcoin, and I don't care if it eventually goes to zero cause it sure aint zero right now, and all the arguments like youre making are fine if youre wondering whether or not to park a lump sum for decades but misses out on some of the best opportunities for portfolio enhancement we have ever seen.

What you are describing is gambling, not investing, which is fine, but don’t call it an investment.

An investment has the potential to make everyone better off financially in the long run.

With bitcoin every gain that is cashed out is someone else’s loss being locked in. And the miners take their cut. It’s like a casino, not a stock market.

[basinbeater]

Don't hear much lately about the why behind cryptocurrency. The value of the token is derived from two things, the usefulness of the network, and the limited quantity of tokens on the network. You can't add new ones.
Why is bitcoins network desirable? Secure and anonymous. Other networks have other benefits. The value of Bitcoin will disappear when another network with superior benefits begins to replace Bitcoin for those use cases, secure and anonymous.
As long as the network is desirable for certain use cases, the tokens on them will have some value. More people want to use the network, tokens become more valuable.
I think a lot of people buying Bitcoin caught up in the hype have no idea what they are buying. There is a ton of positive feedback buying right now, value goes up so I should buy more, drives value up, etc... but within the current market there is a fundamental lack of understanding of where the true value of a cryptocurrency token is derived from. Maybe I have no idea what I am talking about.

[nickwm21]

I just think you're missing the forest for the trees. Don't try to make sense of bitcoin as something that you personally understand the value in or not. It is a financial product that goes up and down in relatively predictable ways that can be exploited if you see the patterns at the right time. It also might end up being a long term store of value if you buy into Michael Saylor's reasoning, but all I know is pattern recognition has been very good to me this year when it comes to swing trading bitcoin, and I don't care if it eventually goes to zero cause it sure aint zero right now, and all the arguments like youre making are fine if youre wondering whether or not to park a lump sum for decades but misses out on some of the best opportunities for portfolio enhancement we have ever seen.

So… textbook Greater Fool Theory…. nice.


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