The Leg Blaster Thread - are we having fun yet?

[shera]

Ha...no next summer. Today.

There is no try! Only do!

To be clear, is your issue is that your legs are cooked by lunchtime when you go out touring? How many days per week are you touring, and what is an average tour for you (vert)? If you are 66 years old and you are getting cooked by touring 3000ft before lunchtime... well yeah, thats about right. Unless you want to dedicate your life to being in world class shape for your age you might need to adjust expectations a little. The offseason and the gym are places to increase base strength/fitness levels... but there is a reason that no matter how hard you go in the offseason, every single athlete ever will tell you that getting into midseason shape is only possible by playing yourself into shape. There is no better motivator than the heat of competition, or in the case of recreational skiing going 40mph with your legs burning and cramping and having to find that little bit left in the tank to make a few turns to stop/control yourself. Training in the offseason is mostly meant to get you into mid-season shape quicker once the season starts, or to raise your peak performance ceiling for your midseason fitness.

I am 61, old af. So annoying.

Anyway, not touring. I like to ski the high alpine steeps mostly. Some bumps, some trees, but mostly double black steeps (lots of that at Copper, very fun). But you are saying I should just ski myself into shape? I used to do that actually and it worked fine, but I don't ski enough days. I'm not a full time instructor any more, writing software now, fortunately work from home with a LOT of flexibility.

[californiagrown]

I am 61, old af. So annoying.

Anyway, not touring. I like to ski the high alpine steeps mostly. Some bumps, some trees, but mostly double black steeps (lots of that at Copper, very fun). But you are saying I should just ski myself into shape? I used to do that actually and it worked fine, but I don't ski enough days. I'm not a full time instructor any more, writing software now, fortunately work from home with a LOT of flexibility.

Strength training will help. a bigger cardio base will help. Leg blasters will help. It will all help.

But realistically, how many +60yr olds do you see out there skiing bumps, trees and double blacks every run? Very few.
how many of those +60yr olds are skiing full days of that? Almost none.
How many of those +60 yr olds skiing full days of that, only get out to the hill once-per-week or less? None.


I dont want to be a debbie downer, but expecting to have the skiing fitness you had 10-20years ago, while skiing much less now, is pretty illogical. Sounds like you still have the technical skills, and fitness to rip expert terrain for 3-4 hours... so do that. And if you want to ski the whole day, just take more breaks and/or sprinkle in more mellow cruiser runs too.

[Foggy_Goggles]

I actually know many 60+ rippers including some from here. There is a lot of space between "past my prime" and "throwing in the towel". The validation is in the effort and the discipline. You just gotta be the best version of you.

So there I was. In that downstairs restaurant in La Grave with that crazy warmed up cheese wheel they bring to your table. There were two 70+ german gent sitting next to us and we got to talking. They were having a proper guys ski vacation just like we were. They hired a guide and we trying to ski one of the big glacier lines out below La Meije. Just living there best life doing what they do. It was inspiring. We talk about it all the time.

We don't control the outcome but we do control the effort and the discipline.

[shera]

The weird thing is that we have a ski club at Copper called the Over the Hill Gang and they are the outliers. Old farts skiing all day, 4 days a week. I can easily ski fast enough, but I run out of gas before them. The bar is high.

Last year I skied twice a week. This year I'll commit to three days. Psychologically I'm not up for two weekend days though.

[shera]

We don't control the outcome but we do control the effort and the discipline.

I can do better.

I made some big changes in the last couple of years, like quitting alcohol and now caffeine, increasing protein, eating fish every day, collagen, etc. I'm sleeping and recovering so much better now.

[californiagrown]

The weird thing is that we have a ski club at Copper called the Over the Hill Gang and they are the outliers. Old farts skiing all day, 4 days a week. I can easily ski fast enough, but I run out of gas before them. The bar is high.

Last year I skied twice a week. This year I'll commit to three days. Psychologically I'm not up for two weekend days though.

Skiing 3 days a week you can likely get to where you want to be, especially if you come into the season with strong legs. I interpreted your post at the top of the page to mean you were getting in 20 day seasons these days, my bad.

Make sure you are eating and drinking a lot, and high quality protein/carbs DURING your skidays too. That will do a lot to ensure proper recovery. I dont mean just eat 3 square meals, i mean be constantly eating protein and carbs on the hill to not only keep energy levels up so you can ski longer, but so you also recover better and progress your fitness before your next ski day.

[rod9301]

Shera you are correct, fast twitch is for power, not endurance

Sent from my moto g 5G using Tapatalk

[shera]

i mean be constantly eating protein and carbs on the hill to not only keep energy levels up so you can ski longer, but so you also recover better and progress your fitness before your next ski day.

Oh yeah, that's another thing I recently changed, added carbs and creatine. I had carb aversion for so many years, it's a message frequently given to older women. But I'm eating 150g/day now and it's really energizing.

I'm riding the mountain bike every day, started short but getting further up the hill every couple of days. They put in a single track next to our neighborhood, it's just gorgeous, kinda tricky and fun to figure out. The switchbacks turns seem impossible, up and down. Anyway, I vote for exercise that's fun and interesting and hopefully useful.

Shera you are correct, fast twitch is for power, not endurance

I'm looking forward to hearing from Dantheman, hoping to hear that the bike will make me invincible.

Sorry to segue this thread, I did my first round of leg blasters this morning. Crazy hard and can't get my knee to the ground. Will keep trying.

[Dantheman]

Losing strength absolutely hurts aerobic endurance. Tons of data on this. Every high level bike racer strength trains today.

150 g/day is still borderline low carb. You should eat more carbs.

Resort skiing full days on legit terrain requires extremely well rounded fitness. It's obvious that you must have good strength, power, and muscular endurance, but you also must have a big aerobic engine or you'll gas out on long runs. Biking is great for building that base and the line choice aspect has good transfer to skiing, but biking does nothing for strength and power and it completely lacks eccentric loading. Biking as your only ski training is a guaranteed way to get crushed.

To learn some basics about exercise physiology and training, I'd recommend listening to the series of episodes Andy Galpin did on Huberman Lab and Andy's new show Perform. Besides being incredibly knowledgeable, Andy has an infectious enthusiasm for muscle and training. You can't help but get stoked listening to him.

[shera]

Yeah, the carbs have been a journey and I'm working towards 200g/day. It took time for my digestion to adjust. Here's the article (with science) that convinced me to increase my intake: Restricting Carbs Hurts Performance and Health

I like Andy Galpin! Youtube says I've watched some of that Huberman series sometime in the past, but now I've got it queued up to watch in full. Thank you for that! There should be a certificate at the end, hahaha.

Here's the playlist if anybody else wants it: Guest Series with Dr. Andy Galpin
Andrew Huberman

[californiagrown]

and can't get my knee to the ground. Will keep trying.

On the lunges? Are you literally saying that you cannot do a body weight lunge?

[heckacali]

Lunges are for telehippies

[shera]

On the lunges? Are you literally saying that you cannot do a body weight lunge?

Ok, I just did one on each side to prove that I could do it all the way to the ground.

My comment had to do with the video I was following from the first page of this thread. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yvr6TE9ujyY) I was trying to match the pace of the guy and it was impossible for me to do it with the full range of motion.

I just did one round and I'm sore from it today. Pathetic.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Well you never want to compromise your form for speed. Maybe you just need to get going with a routine? I'm guessing you don't want to go to a gym. Perhaps something like this a few times a week

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKnP88kWTKA

Also, the adjustable dumbell sets are really nice at home.

The workout experts will have better advice but it seems like you may be more in need of get stronger than ski specific workout.

[Stuntmonkey]

If it works for you, keep on doing it.

BUT, i would warn folks against using leg blasters as a warmup. I could not come up with a more perfect routine to impart patellar/quad tendonitis if i tried haha. I would highly, highly suggest that people be fully warmed up before doing them. IMO, leg blasters are a perfect finisher to a leg workout... the sheer amount of volume and pre-fatiguing before any jumping means that they are not an actual plyometric excercise, along with the fact you can use shit form and still be safe means there isnt really a great reason to put them at the beginning of your workout.


A good idea would be to introduce wall sits to your workouts a few weeks before introducing leg blasters. Isometric holds (like wall sits) help strengthen tendons and will help protect against developing tendonitis when you do start up leg blasters.

Noted, thanks. Never thought of it that way. I definitely need to incorporate a much more stringent warm up routine for EVERYTHING lol. Getting by being under 40 I think haha.

[Dantheman]

Noted, thanks. Never thought of it that way. I definitely need to incorporate a much more stringent warm up routine for EVERYTHING lol. Getting by being under 40 I think haha.

A good dynamic warmup is one of the few proven ways to reduce injuries. The other being not to progress too fast. Static stretching before a workout does nothing. Even bad form has a derth of data showing increased injury risk. Not that I'm encouraging anyone to lift with bad form, but studies have been done where they had people lift with bad form intentionally and the bad form groups don't really get hurt more. Counterintuitive for sure.

Ordering exercises in a workout should always go skill, power, strength, conditioning. The skill and power work needs to be really high quality so you want to be fresh.

[Dantheman]

The workout experts will have better advice but it seems like you may be more in need of get stronger than ski specific workout.

The upside of being deconditioned is that everything works. Novice gains are awesome. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Anything>>nothing.

[Shred Baron]

Well yesterday after a warm up jog/run and some planks, and resistance band stuff for hips I did my first three mini leg blasters. Mostly to work out m form/muscle memory. My legs do feel a touch sore. Not sure if I’ll go full blaster or just work some minis I to my weekly routine. Now to spend the weekend really fucking up my legs with some trail “running” with a fair chunk of elevation gain.

[ptavv]

Even bad form has a derth of data showing increased injury risk. Not that I'm encouraging anyone to lift with bad form, but studies have been done where they had people lift with bad form intentionally and the bad form groups don't really get hurt more. Counterintuitive for sure.

if you dispense with dogma, or even properly label it in your mind I don't think this is that counter intuitive

when you get into the range of 90+% a 1RM there's some data that people can have more residual pain with poor form on lifts than better form, but for the most part they just fail the lifts more often

when looking at plyometrics and calisthenics I think it's even more sensible (intuitive? lol) that form breakdown isn't an injury risk… think about basically any activity you're doing that is long and hard. of course your form breaks down and your efficiency/economy get worse at it and it's not disastrous (it'd be a total failure of evolution if normal fatigue made us particularly injury prone); the notion that intentional exercise would be any different strikes me as sort of fanciful. you'll definitely become less efficient as you get fatigued and then drive fatigue accumulation even faster, but most people have the sense / ability to stop the cycle of increasing fatigue -> increasing fatigue accumulation before they totally blow up

I find if I'm not pushing sets/reps to points where my form is imperfect I generally am holding myself back from progress. definitely true with leg blasters. when I push through having to break during the jump lunges on set 4 or 5 and just finish it out I find when I come back next time my gains are much better than if I don't push through it and take the broken sets as a sign I should stop

[Harry]

Sep. 1 seems a bit early for this thread.

Winter before last Trollhaugen opened on Oct 15. By my math that is 6 weeks out, so I am starting now. This thread helped me last year, looking forward to good results this year too.

I was trying to match the pace of the guy and it was impossible for me to do it with the full range of motion.

I’m in my 60’s like you. I go about 1/20th the speed of that guy in the video on the lunges. Plus I am not really jumping into the lunges, I’m more stepping into it.

Well you never want to compromise your form for speed.

I’m glad to hear that. My intuition was to go slow and do the lunges with good form not speed.

This is a good seasonal thread, gets me motivated for the upcoming winter. Thanks for bumping it Puffymeister.




Sent from my iPad using TGR Forums

[shera]

I guess there's a difference between "form" and "range of motion". For the leg blasters I think I want to keep the timing pressure on. Like jumping rope or doing bunny hops, I NEED to make my feet go faster and I NEED to get bouncy. And I'm not sure about this, but isn't the eccentric loading (that we need for skiing) due to a good hard bouncing action?

That said, I think a set of walking lunges would also do me good. I'm watching all these ski conditioning videos and taking this week to try to make myself a program for the next few weeks. Last year I did an army prt workout Conditioning Drill 3 and that was fun, but I think I can do better this year.

When I first saw the mention of noobie gains, I was like HEY I have a lifetime of play hard. But then I realized that is exactly why I'm loving the mountain bike right now - every time I go out I get further up the hill. It's been a decade since I rode a bike, so yeah, noob.

Anyway I am grateful for this conversation. Really making me think (and work harder).

[criscam]

I guess there's a difference between "form" and "range of motion". For the leg blasters I think I want to keep the timing pressure on. Like jumping rope or doing bunny hops, I NEED to make my feet go faster and I NEED to get bouncy. And I'm not sure about this, but isn't the eccentric loading (that we need for skiing) due to a good hard bouncing action?

fwiw...i go knee to floor on the lunges but jumping lunges i prob go halfway to maintain some speed.

[californiagrown]

fwiw...i go knee to floor on the lunges but jumping lunges i prob go halfway to maintain some speed.

The higher you jump, and softer you land on the squat jumps and lunge jumps, the closer you will be mimicking skiing. The point is to mimic the highforce compressions, and then extensions you experience skiing. If you are just switching feet quickly on the lunge jumps you arent getting much of the eccentric, or concentric loading benefits, and you are basically just doing ladder drills. IMO, before you progress to full leg blasters, you should be able to do your mini leg blasters (at least the first few sets) maxing your effort on the squat jumps and lunge jumps so that you are landing softly, and then exploding up quickly. The goal is to spend as little time as possible on the ground, while still landing softly- to land softly you will need to catch yourself deep, and to spend little time on the ground you will need to explode with maximal force into the air.

Its kinda like burpees. You can do burpees for time or amount and do them as efficiently as possible to maximize the competition benefit (which is what crossfit typically does), or you can do them "correctly" to maximize the training benefit. We arent doing leg blasters in a competition, we are doing them so the training benefit carries-over to skiing 2 months down the road.


**As i said before, leg blasters are perfect for developing tendonitis so make sure you are warmed up, fairly well trained prior, and slowly progress into them. Also take with large grains of salt as everyone's age, training history, injury history, and mobility is different and needs to be taken into account. I am just speaking to what the end goal/ideal purpose of the exercise is, so dont let perfect be the enemy of good... something is better than nothing**

[californiagrown]

I guess there's a difference between "form" and "range of motion". For the leg blasters I think I want to keep the timing pressure on. Like jumping rope or doing bunny hops, I NEED to make my feet go faster and I NEED to get bouncy. And I'm not sure about this, but isn't the eccentric loading (that we need for skiing) due to a good hard bouncing action?


When I first saw the mention of noobie gains, I was like HEY I have a lifetime of play hard. But then I realized that is exactly why I'm loving the mountain bike right now - every time I go out I get further up the hill. It's been a decade since I rode a bike, so yeah, noob.

A lot of the bounce from plyos is going to come from your lower legs, especially if you arent deeply bending your hips or knees. In skiing, your ankle is locked so you get near zero bounciness from your lower legs. Make sure you are bending your hips and knees to absorb and then explode. One of the big benefits of lunge-jumps , compared to squat jumps, or normal hurdle/box jumps is that you dont use as much lower leg (mostly thigh/butt) so there is better carryover to skiing.


FWIW, i find crossover benefit from MTB climbing when it comes to being able to powerup steep punchy climbs. The kind that are 1-3 minutes long that you are redlining on and putting max effort into the pedals on. But, I know of a number of folks around your age who have had heart issues pushing their max heartrate like that, so i personally wouldnt do that (im not sure what the medical science actually says). If you are looking for max carryover from MTB id reccomend focusing on the kind of punchy climbs where your legs are already burning, and then you have to power up and around a steep switchback... repeat. But also, something is better than nothing and if you just keep riding further and further each day, that will certainly benefit your cardio base and help out your health along with some skihill carryover.

[Stuntmonkey]

A good dynamic warmup is one of the few proven ways to reduce injuries. The other being not to progress too fast. Static stretching before a workout does nothing. Even bad form has a derth of data showing increased injury risk. Not that I'm encouraging anyone to lift with bad form, but studies have been done where they had people lift with bad form intentionally and the bad form groups don't really get hurt more. Counterintuitive for sure.

Ordering exercises in a workout should always go skill, power, strength, conditioning. The skill and power work needs to be really high quality so you want to be fresh.

100% with you on the static stretches. I've always been told that by coaches from university rugby up to olympic lifting coaches. My dynamic warm ups are no where near as long as they used to be, mainly because I'm working out in the middle of the day and on a time crunch. Put together an old template last night that I'll try and stick with.

All on a 40ft turf

Butt kicks
High knees
Inch worm
Walking lunges
Spiderman with overhead reach
Wall sits
Ankle rolls

Probably add a few more in as I remember them and subtract throughout the week.