Real Estate Crash thread

[liv2ski]

It's easier to say you're sorry than to get permission.

This is the way...

[AdironRider]

Realtors advising clients about easements and the interpretation of covenants, etc. keeps me and several associates busy. Do you really think real estate agents are qualified to opine on easements? Holy smokes, please don't do this.

Yeah, in a forum filled of advice of questionable origin/validity, this really seems to rise above the rest in terms of just how terrible it is.

[schuss]

Flathead County GIS is off by tens of feet, way worse than most other "developed" counties in MT.

Look across McDonald Creek in the above image though. I believe that is Apgar Creek coming in, and check out the gravel bar. In a big water year, I bet that gets big and pushes even more flow towards the house.

And for the people wondering how this happened, Flathead County, like several others in MT, has areas that are totally unzoned and that do not require any sort of "real" building permit. That was the case here, so nobody at the County looked at or approved the building plan in any way shape or form.

I find it hard to believe, however, that the contractor or architect were totally unaware of the 310 Law, which is the MT law that requires a (free) permit before you can disturb the bed or banks of a perennial waterway. I wouldn't be surprised if there is a CYA email or text from the contractor/architect/whatever to the homeowners stating that they "may" need a 310 Permit or something like that.

Also, Milt Datsopolous did, in fact, die last year, but his firm continues onward.

This case is far from over. Expect an appeal to district court, then the MT Supreme Court. I suppose it is even possible that this ends up at the US Supreme Court because they love jurisdictional fights, and that is what this is.

WG, curious: are you aware of the details of the 310 permits sufficient to advise clients about it, or at least that they need to consult an expert? I am guessing most Realtors are not. I have been involved in 310 permitting disputes where a neighbor complained and the Conservation District came out....and red tagged work that the complainer had done. I laughed a lot at that one.

If it ends up in fed supreme court, they'll likely just punt to local laws, as federal land is almost entirely for the feds purpose and they have zero interest in maintaining things for homeowners. Only end for that route is "no residential building on fed land" IMO. Fed and state govs generally don't have to give a shit about any zoning regs if they don't feel like it, as states generally inherit most powers from the Fed and states generally don't want to be bound when they need to do state things.

[Conundrum]

Back to realtors sucking. I’ve used one and thought they were worth the money. If I were a good realtor and read all the comments about bad realtors, I would be encouraged. But I also put earning money before defending my profession’s honor.

[Foggy_Goggles]

Back to realtors sucking. I’ve used one and thought they were worth the money. If I were a good realtor and read all the comments about bad realtors, I would be encouraged. But I also put earning money before defending my profession’s honor.

Pretty much this. Offpiste spoke to it years OK. I actually find it to be one of the strangest things about Realtors. They stick up for "the profession" above and beyond all else. They must teach it day one.

I'm a contractor. Many people thing most contractors suck. I don't disagree. There are similarities in that "fake it till you make it is the norm". But I don't blinds have the backs of the shit bags. I look at it as a business opportunity.

But the customers need to own it too. Why would you think the "the inspector, contractor, mortgage broker etc." that your Realtor hired or referred was working in your best interest.

"I was looking at this used car, it needed work. The salesalesman at the used car lot had his buddy the mechanic take a look. He said it was no big deal and probably could be fixed for $500. I never actually met or talked to the guy. Turns out the block was cracked, needed a whole new engine. Fuck those guys!"

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

I'm no expert on 310 law, but am aware of it and had a client come to me wanting to buy that lot the best I could do is advise them that someone with even more knowledge should be consulted. Whether or not they listen is another story. Just take it down to simple logic. Did they really think building that close to the water while clearly having to disturb the bank was ever a good idea? I don't know much about the creek there but I am guessing when it's really ripping in the spring it's damn near up to the house.

[Bunion 2020]

^^^ People can be morons. What else is there to say? Working on a home in the Really Big that is surrounded by wetland areas that require a 404 permit. The foundation is maybe 20" above the level of an old pond that is nearly silted up but is clearly a delineated wetland feature (lots of little pink flags) and maybe 25' set back from that feature. The proposed driveway crosses another wetland so we have had to build a temporary access road into the site. Currently USACE is behind in processing 404 permits to the point that if they do not process a permit withing a given period of time (60 days???) the permit is automatically issued. The folks doing the planning could have applied 4 months ago and been golden. Now we are stuck having to protect that shitty little pond that eventually will be excavated and turned back into a nice rich guy's pond and only have 1 way in and out of the site and concrete starts in 2 weeks.

Not my zoo, only a bit of my monkey.

[lowsparkco]

Realtors advising clients about easements and the interpretation of covenants, etc. keeps me and several associates busy. Do you really think real estate agents are qualified to opine on easements? Holy smokes, please don't do this.

There’s a huge difference in standard of practice between brokers. Almost every single transaction involves a title search and brokers should be trained to read and evaluate that information. I worked for real estate attorneys for a number of years and have a really good one I use when I have questions.

But, to answer your question, yes. 100% licensed real estate brokers should be qualified to know when an easement requires a lawyers opinion or not.

[lowsparkco]

Pretty much this. Offpiste spoke to it years OK. I actually find it to be one of the strangest things about Realtors. They stick up for "the profession" above and beyond all else. They must teach it day one.

I'm a contractor. Many people thing most contractors suck. I don't disagree. There are similarities in that "fake it till you make it is the norm". But I don't blinds have the backs of the shit bags. I look at it as a business opportunity.

But the customers need to own it too. Why would you think the "the inspector, contractor, mortgage broker etc." that your Realtor hired or referred was working in your best interest.

"I was looking at this used car, it needed work. The salesalesman at the used car lot had his buddy the mechanic take a look. He said it was no big deal and probably could be fixed for $500. I never actually met or talked to the guy. Turns out the block was cracked, needed a whole new engine. Fuck those guys!"

Professionals observing best practice refer at least 3 potential contractors and let the client choose. I believe in the process, whether it’s for myself or for a client. It’s amazing how much you learn getting bids.

I don’t think myself or the other brokers in this thread are defending the industry. I’ve said multiple times I think license law should be changed, but no one bites on asking what part. Fine. It’s easier to just recount horror stories. That’s the nature of this place. It’s generally geared towards entertainment not information. Horror stories are more entertaining.

The idea that you’re better served by Redfin or self representing is laughable. But, everyone has to learn one way or another. I hope everyone has smooth transactions and gets what they want, just like the guy that cuts me off in traffic, I hope he gets where he’s going safely. I only control me.

[mud]

[schuss]

There’s a huge difference in standard of practice between brokers. Almost every single transaction involves a title search and brokers should be trained to read and evaluate that information. I worked for real estate attorneys for a number of years and have a really good one I use when I have questions.

But, to answer your question, yes. 100% licensed real estate brokers should be qualified to know when an easement requires a lawyers opinion or not.

Lol, in my local area where I serve on the planning board, half our angry constituents are people that had their realtor lie and/or be completely misinformed then get mad at us for enforcing the rules on the books and the restrictions on the lots they purchased. It ranges from misrepresenting zoning (told people they were totally fine to run a commercial op in a res zone), misrepresenting rules on utilities, to misrepresenting ADU items, all of which are very clearly spelled out.

[Foggy_Goggles]

...and all done so casually. Once the commission check clears, there is zero recourse. I know plenty of top notch real estate professionals who know their shit and have built their book of business, reputation and lively hood on it.

They are dwarfed by the second tier and lower that just straight make shit up. Whenever I hear, "but my Realtor told me", my response is usually "Do you want to call them or should I?"

[singlesline]

Back to realtors sucking. I’ve used one and thought they were worth the money. If I were a good realtor and read all the comments about bad realtors, I would be encouraged. But I also put earning money before defending my profession’s honor.

The hard part is knowing who is actually a good realtor.

The average person doesn't buy very many homes in a given area (median is probably 1), so they don't get many chances to see what a good realtor looks like. Maybe a couple in a lifetime. You also only get a glimpse of your realtor's skills until very late in the process. On the buy side, they might seem great at the showing stage, but drop the ball when it comes time to make a deal--and there are strings attached that make it hard to fire them if you still want to move forward on a house they showed.

If you ask someone to recommend a realtor, unless they had a bad experience, many will just recommend whoever they used. They were nice and got the deal done and you like the house, so sure they are a "good" realtor. Their recommendation isn't based on a bunch of repeated transactions and experience with many different realtors.

They likely have no idea if their realtor was any good. Did they get a quick sale because they marketed it well, or because they way underpriced and left money on the table? Did you win the bid because you bid 25k more than you had to based on flawed comps? Did their highly recommended inspector clear the house because they were a thorough, objective inspector, or did they do a hack-job and everything just worked out because the seller was honest and the house wasn't defective.

It is human nature to *think* you got a good deal. You probably wouldn't have signed if you didn't think you were. There's a lot of behavioral research on how almost everyone thinks they got at least a decent deal immediately after a new car purchase even though some of them got objectively fucked by the salesman. If you have limited knowledge and can't tell you are getting screwed, then any deal you choose to sign must be at least acceptable or you would walk away. It is only later when you hear your neighbor bought the exact same car from the same dealer for $5k less that you experience regret.

So many individual recommendations are hard to trust, review sites are full of paid/manipulated garbage, advertisements are just marketing fluff...how do you actually find a good one?


Of course, many of the above factors are also reasons why you definitely don't want to go without an agent...for most people, these are the largest transactions you will ever make in your life, they have lots of special rules, and most people don't do them enough to get practice. Even a mediocre realtor does them many times a year and can help avoid a lot of really nasty pitfalls.

WRG sounds like a great agent and if he were in the flathead, I'd definitely look to hire him...but I don't get to read most realtors' unfiltered online musings which makes it harder to tell.

TL;DR: Hard for a layperson to tell what a good realtor looks like since you only use them a few times in a liftime, and since most people can't tell, their personal recommendations are useless. But you still want one...

[lowsparkco]

I’m finished here, but I’ll leave with this parting shot. In every state I’m aware of your broker is probably operating under some version of a salesperson’s license which is an extension of his principal managing broker’s license. If you’re lied to, blown off when asking an important question, told false information, or generally treated poorly or dishonestly, go above the salesperson and reach out to the principal broker. They have a lot more experience and skin in the game. A lot of the crazy shit that’s been mentioned in this thread shouldn’t happen. Report misconduct, fire the broker, be vocal.

[Name Redacted]

I feel like "Realtor" is just a cover people use for being trustfunders around here.

[anotherVTskibum]

I think we talked about office building conversations to residential earlier; NYT reports that in part of NYC, it is happening:

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/17/n...smid=url-share

[Conundrum]

In my industry, if I fuck up, I'm liable and am required to carry errors and omissions insurance. How about this for realtors? Solves a lot of problems-barrier to entry, knowing actual true answers, a couple fuck ups means you can't get insurance to operate... Nothing wrong with charging what you want but if you are charging a % on large dollar amounts, your advice shouldn't cost your customer when you're wrong and you should be willing to pay for the mistake. If this were in place, I doubt we'd hear many realtor horror stories.

Unfettered profit with no risk and entering and leaving a profession at your leisure is not a recipe for a good reputation.

[Foggy_Goggles]

In my industry, if I fuck up, I'm liable and am required to carry errors and omissions insurance.

This is pretty much the crux of it more me. The lack of accountability is insane. I'm not talking on paper or legally or "can I speak to the manager". I'm talking about once the commission check clears and the gift basket gets dropped off, it's over.

It is the opposite of a full disclosure transaction. Around here the agents all know each other, and they blatantly collude to "Always be Closing". They systematically misrepresent absolutely everything. Examples include, cost of repairs, HOA regulations and financial health, Municipal chances and so on.

My sphere is obviously small but around here the game can be, spew half truths and falsehoods as needed and convenient and then guilt your customers into making it there problem, because it is.

Nobody likes doing business with 95% Realtors. The other 5% earn and get tons of respect for rising above the institutional bullshit.

[nickwm21]

The fee / commission structure needs to change. It does not incentivize the clients needs…


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[fastfred]

couple thoughts

when people were selling houses for less than 200k a 3% commission and the realtors actual take home was pretty small and it was ok money
now people are selling houses for one million that 3% is pretty big

what about car salesmen and cellphone store sales people they call suck too

years ago I got involved in a project where someone bought a two bath two bedroom condo
well guess what the condo was really a one bed one bath with a loft someone fucked that up pretty good

the previous owner went into "attic common space" and added a bathroom and a bonus bedroom with no window
other than providing paper work and providing a written statement I steered clear of the mess once we demo'd and redid everything to code
needless to say the title company realtor and previous owner all got sued

[Foggy_Goggles]

Oh man, fuck you Freddie...I was trying to forget half my stories. I was involved on an extensive remodel where the seller was the former mayor and the listing agent was a town council member. The entire mother in law was unpermitted in a coverted garage no of which was disclosed. My customer and I got on the agenda and burned it all down. That went over like a wet fart. I'm still around, the mayor and realtor are retired down in Mexico.

[goldenboy]

Realtors are required to carry E and O insurance. Anyway, bash on..

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[The SnowShow]

I’m glad realtors are around to help me figure out what room is the living room and what room is the kitchen when I’m looking for a house. Phew, I almost thought the 5 piece bathroom was the den.

[concretejungle]

I’m glad realtors are around to help me figure out what room is the living room and what room is the kitchen when I’m looking for a house. Phew, I almost thought the 5 piece bathroom was the den.

I just learned I shit in the kitchen.

[liv2ski]

I just learned I shit in the kitchen.

You need to cross post in the "Getting Old Thread"