50 years to the day

[MontuckyFried]

50 years of peace to break the cycle. And that clock got a hard fucking reset on Oct 7. It seriously makes me want to cry.

Indeed. 10/7 is honestly worse than our 9/11 in terms of scale and IMO, intent. Never forget.

I just watched this touching tribute to some of the victims of the Nova Festival. The festival was all about celebrating peace and love, for all. A very inclusive event. Of all people, these ones did not deserve to die. Nobody did.

[JimmyCarter]

Israel PM Barak made that offer in 2000 despite PM Rabin being assassinated by a radical Israeli (while at a peace rally) just a 5 years earlier for making peace in Oslo with Arafat.

It's such a fucking joke that Arafat said no, being offered almost everything, despite negotiating from a position of weakness, and decided a terror campaign was a better idea.

But then he was a terrorist dictator, and an asshole. That he got the Nobel Peace Prize was a fucking joke.

Nobody would deal with Arafat after that. Horrific terrorism ensues. Israel tries a unilateral peace move and pulls out Lebanon in 2000 and out of Gaza in 2005 dragging out all the Jews by force from their homes.

So the West Bank elected Abbas (PA (PLO)) while Gaza Elects Hamas.

In 2008, Israel offers Abbas an EVEN BETTER DEAL than Arafat was offered in 2000. Again it addressed the Israeli "settlement issue." And Abbas says NO PEACE while Hamas continued rocket barrages of civilian areas and terror bombings.

This is why even the erstwhile Arab partners of Palestine started to doubt the utility of maintaining the Palestinian-Israeli conflict as the external boogeyman to distract their subject populations as they are all functionally autocracies, some with elections for show. Most of them presided of post-colonially arbitrarily drawn up artificial states created post-Ottoman/post-British, so maintaining external foci of anger helped suppress unrest. Israel was clearly not going away while it was potentially a useful strategic partner against Iran and peace in Israel would also curry Western favor which was needed for weapons deals. The West didn't want to sell some weapon systems to Arab nations that might use them on Israel. But the Palestinian terror mindset that the Arab nations had fomented and stoked for decades was now biting them in the ass. No Palestinian leadership and indeed most Palestinians could not see any real pathway to even a generous two state solution. Palestinian power structure and culture zeitgeist was based around eternal victimhood, martyrdom/terrorism, and the destruction of Israel either de facto or de jure.

You are Israel:
Your militarily inferior neighbor won't accept generous peace terms or more generous peace terms.
When you unilaterally offer peace, your neighbor elects a terrorist organization that proceed to do terrorist things to your civilians, even more than before you tried to leave the fight.
International aid money and infrastructure to your neighbors are used to enrich terrorist leaders, build weapons of terror, and fund enculturation of terrorism as an ideal.

What do you do now?

This is how Netanyahu's policies were able to get support, even though they don't offer a pathway to peace or real security either! It's all fucked.

50 years of peace to break the cycle. And that clock got a hard fucking reset on Oct 7. It seriously makes me want to cry.

Who created Hamas in the first place to counteract Arafat?

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/...tine-conflict/

[summit]

Israel should unilaterally address the settlement issue though, deal or no deal. Remove the West Bank settlements. Remove the ring settlements cutting off East Jerusalem. That would have been better before those Hamas assholes shit on everything. Now everything is fucked. At least permanently freeze settlement construction.

Look at it from the Israeli perspective:

Why do that if there is no hope for a two state solution?
Why do that if addressing the settlements wasn't acceptable in incredibly generous peace offers?
Why do that if unilateral peace moves resulted in Hamas domination and 18 years of terror culminating in Oct 7?

What got me years ago (20-25 years ago?) was some stories on NPR where the settlements were bulldozing ancient Palestinian olive trees

That is what got you in all of this death? Knocking down an old tree to build a house? Ag land is converted everywhere in the world...

When Israel forced all the Jews out of Gaza in 2005 leaving greenhouse based desert agricultural industry including exportables that would be quite profitable... and rather than use it, the Palestinians destroyed and looted the greenhouses and terrorists used them as a place to launch rockets at Israeli civilians. That dashed a lot of hopes that the unilateral peace move by Israel would pay off because the Palestinians viewed their refusal to negotiate and their terror attacks, bombing busses, pizza parlors, shooting up civilian areas, rocket barrages and the 2nd Intifada as having made Israel leave.

"4 years of resistance beats 10 years of negotiation." -Palestinian banners celebrating the Israeli departure of Gaza

The withdrawal of Israeli forces, the forced removal of Jews from Gaza, the digging up of Jewish cemeteries, and the leaving of infrastructure in place, was not viewed by Palestinians as a peace overture or act of kindness, but as a victory of terrorism. https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...hosts-of-gaza/

[summit]

Who created Hamas in the first place to counteract Arafat?

https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/...tine-conflict/

Did you actually read that load of BS? First, you know it is BS because it is TheIntercept, a hyperpartisan biased media with extremely variable standards right up there with MotherJones, DailyKos, and CounterPunch.

But let's say you didn't.

Did you read that brief hack job of an article that reads like it is a Trumper screaming about how the Deep State stole the election or a 9/11 Troofer talking about how the US Government is responsible for 9/11?

It accuses but doesn't actually show jack or shit, like most hack job conspiracy articles, twists words and intimates connections to make it seem like it's all a conspiracy.

[JimmyCarter]

Did you actually read that load of BS? First, you know it is BS because it is TheIntercept, a hyperpartisan biased media with extremely variable standards right up there with MotherJones, DailyKos, and CounterPunch.

But let's say you didn't.

Did you read that brief hack job of an article that reads like it is a Trumper screaming about how the Deep State stole the election or a 9/11 Troofer talking about how the US Government is responsible for 9/11?

It accuses but doesn't actually show jack or shit, like most hack job conspiracy articles, twists words and intimates connections to make it seem like it's all a conspiracy.

WaPo better?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-create-hamas/

[muted reborn]

Did you actually read that load of BS? First, you know it is BS because it is TheIntercept, a hyperpartisan biased media with extremely variable standards right up there with MotherJones, DailyKos, and CounterPunch.

But let's say you didn't.

Did you read that brief hack job of an article that reads like it is a Trumper screaming about how the Deep State stole the election or a 9/11 Troofer talking about how the US Government is responsible for 9/11?

It accuses but doesn't actually show jack or shit, like most hack job conspiracy articles, twists words and intimates connections to make it seem like it's all a conspiracy.

I don't know where you get your info, but i don't think you are a very good source of knowledgable info on this subject either, to be fair.

[ex-powderbroker]

“israel created hamas” - more hyperbole

[highangle]

“israel created hamas” - more hyperbole

That's just JC's way of recognizing Israel's obligation to destroy Hamas.

[Core Shot]

If all the water for Gaza comes from Israel why didn’t they use those chemicals to turn people gay?

[riser4]

Look at it from the Israeli perspective:

Why do that if there is no hope for a two state solution?
Why do that if addressing the settlements wasn't acceptable in incredibly generous peace offers?
Why do that if unilateral peace moves resulted in Hamas domination and 18 years of terror culminating in Oct 7?


That is what got you in all of this death? Knocking down an old tree to build a house? Ag land is converted everywhere in the world...

When Israel forced all the Jews out of Gaza in 2005 leaving greenhouse based desert agricultural industry including exportables that would be quite profitable... and rather than use it, the Palestinians destroyed and looted the greenhouses and terrorists used them as a place to launch rockets at Israeli civilians. That dashed a lot of hopes that the unilateral peace move by Israel would pay off because the Palestinians viewed their refusal to negotiate and their terror attacks, bombing busses, pizza parlors, shooting up civilian areas, rocket barrages and the 2nd Intifada as having made Israel leave.

"4 years of resistance beats 10 years of negotiation." -Palestinian banners celebrating the Israeli departure of Gaza

The withdrawal of Israeli forces, the forced removal of Jews from Gaza, the digging up of Jewish cemeteries, and the leaving of infrastructure in place, was not viewed by Palestinians as a peace overture or act of kindness, but as a victory of terrorism. https://thehill.com/opinion/internat...hosts-of-gaza/

And the real you is back. Kill em all and let Yaweh sort em out?

[TBS]

^^^Once and for all!!!

Yeahhh, that’s the ticket…

And in the meantime, IDF has now killed 4x the number of Palestinians as Israelis killed in the worst Jewish massacre since WW2

[mcphee]

War mongering and profiteering on a ski forum! Fuck yea!

[summit]

And the real you is back. Kill em all and let Yaweh sort em out?

Where did I suggest anything resembling that??????

Oh wait... I didn't. Also, I don't believe in Yaweh, not that it really matters.

That is just your way of dismissing the POV I was asking you to acknowledge or pointing out something along the same lines as what was bothering you.

Insisting that one side always compromise for peace when the other will not accept such compromise as peaceful is something that requires a more convincing counterargument than "agree with me or you must want mass murder." Especially when that strategy has been tried, failed, and the circumstances around the failure have not changed.

We needed the Arabs pushing their fellow Arabs as hard for peace as the rest of the world pushes Israel. Abraham Accords and normalizing with the Saudis and beyond was that pathway. Iran and Hamas saw that and Oct 7 was their strategic terrorist attack to avert such peaceful developments. You gotta have a better solution than unilateral Israeli concessions in face of the Oct 7 massacres while Hamas still holds 200+ hostages.

We need 50 years of peace but it has to come from all powers involved. Israel simply does not have the power to make this happen by itself:


^This is what we should want.

[mcphee]

^and bombing them is the only way to acheive that. Oooh rah!

[summit]

When Bin Laden committed 9/11, why didn't we all just give him what he wanted? Why did we have to invade Afghanistan when the Taliban wouldn't give up Bin Laden?

We could have given peace a chance without bombs and troops. We could have just let Bin Laden and Al Queda be. They wouldn't do it again if only we gave them what they wanted. We could have just dropped sanction on Iraq, pulled all US forces from Saudi Arabia, abandoned all aid and support of Israel, and converted to Wahabi Sunni Islam and instituted Sharia Law, banned LGBTQ, stopped educating women, brought back stoning and whippings... you know, what Bin Laden was pointing out the failures on. Really, we brought 9/11 on ourselves.

But seriously... sometimes there are shit choices and by design. But sometimes things go too far. Too bad we tried to nation build AFG and then the same in Iraq. That was a lot of wasted blood and treasure. That is what Biden was trying to warn Israel about.

[mcphee]

Ok bud. We could’ve bombed Al-Qaeda positions within Afghanistan in a half a day and still had the same result of the 20 year quagmire that resulted. Iraq was based on obvious lies and we never should’ve been there.

Glad you made some money off it though.

[J. Barron DeJong]

When Bin Laden committed 9/11, why didn't we all just give him what he wanted? Why did we have to invade Afghanistan when the Taliban wouldn't give up Bin Laden?

We could have given peace a chance without bombs and troops. We could have just let Bin Laden and Al Queda be. They wouldn't do it again if only we gave them what they wanted. We could have just dropped sanction on Iraq, pulled all US forces from Saudi Arabia, abandoned all aid and support of Israel, and converted to Wahabi Sunni Islam and instituted Sharia Law, banned LGBTQ, stopped educating women, brought back stoning and whippings... you know, what Bin Laden was pointing out the failures on. Really, we brought 9/11 on ourselves.

But seriously... sometimes there are shit choices and by design. But sometimes things go too far. Too bad we tried to nation build AFG and then the same in Iraq. That was a lot of wasted blood and treasure. That is what Biden was trying to warn Israel about.

So drop a bunch of bombs strategically targeted on Hamas, then a ground invasion to root out as much of the rest of them as possible, and then… what?

What’s the strategic end game that Israel has in mind? Because the US seems to think there isn’t one (or at least not an achievable one).

[summit]

So drop a bunch of bombs strategically targeted on Hamas, then a ground invasion to root out as much of the rest of them as possible, and then… what?

What’s the strategic end game that Israel has in mind? Because the US seems to think there isn’t one (or at least not an achievable one).

This is a good question. And I don't know.

I don't know what the best action is. Israel can't not strike back. They can't let Hamas get away with it. But can they eliminate Hamas? Really? Even if they could, then what?

What can be done instead if the situation before the war was Palestinians won't accept the 2 state offers made in 2000 and 2008 and viewed the unilateral Gaza pullout as a victory for their terrorism? How do you not hand them the same positive reinforcement after Oct 7?

Strikes against Hamas seem sensible. Yes they ensconced themselves using their own civilians as human shields. It is hard to stop the strikes while Hamas is still holding 200+ babies, girls, and grandmas hostage.

But I don't see good options or a good endgame... which is how Hamas and Iran designed it. It's fucking horrible!

[MagnificentUnicorn]

^^^Once and for all!!!

Yeahhh, that’s the ticket…

And in the meantime, IDF has now killed 4x the number of Palestinians as Israelis killed in the worst Jewish massacre since WW2

Yeah but the Palestinians aren’t much better than animals though, that’s what I’ve heard on the internet anyway


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[J. Barron DeJong]

This is a good question. And I don't know.

I don't know what the best action is. Israel can't not strike back. They can't let Hamas get away with it. But can they eliminate Hamas? Really? Even if they could, then what?

What can be done instead if the situation before the war was Palestinians won't accept the 2 state offers made in 2000 and 2008 and viewed the unilateral Gaza pullout as a victory for their terrorism? How do you not hand them the same positive reinforcement after Oct 7?

Strikes against Hamas seem sensible. Yes they ensconced themselves using their own civilians as human shields. It is hard to stop the strikes while Hamas is still holding 200+ babies, girls, and grandmas hostage.

But I don't see good options or a good endgame... which is how Hamas and Iran designed it. It's fucking horrible!

I would say that it’s obvious they need to -react- somehow, but that they shouldn’t just retaliate for retaliations sake. They have every right to retaliate, but there’s no point doing it unless it somehow makes the future likely to be better.

[summit]

I would say that it’s obvious they need to -react- somehow, but that they shouldn’t just retaliate for retaliations sake. They have every right to retaliate, but there’s no point doing it unless it somehow makes the future likely to be better.

I agree. I think if they are targeting terrorist leadership, training, weapons and the other infrastructure of their terrorism, then that seems like valid targets. But restraint is in order up to a point... and that point is anything that could be construed as willingness to tolerate or reward such actions as Oct 7. This is unfortunately where calls for proportionality fail in the reality of the mindsets of the region.

I also frankly don't believe the Hamas quoted casualty numbers that up until today most of the media has been repeating as unqualified fact. They have a habit of calling all terrorists deaths as civilian deaths and also inflating the numbers by a factor of 10x+. This unfortunately makes proportionality and restraint look disproportionate and unrestrained to the people who might appreciate the restraint: the Arab nations, the West, and the minority of the Palestineans who might support a two state solution

[mcphee]

Is the US and Israel so bad at spy craft, infiltration, propaganda, and subversion that we can’t play a long game and root these religious terrorists leaders out and show the rest a better way of life? I mean how hard can it be to trick these subhumans? Are there stocks I can buy to help this cause?

[J. Barron DeJong]

I agree. I think if they are targeting terrorist leadership, training, weapons and the other infrastructure of their terrorism, then that seems like valid targets.

I also frankly don't believe the Hamas quoted casualty numbers that up until today most of the media has been repeating as unqualified fact. They have a habit of calling all terrorists deaths as civilian deaths and also inflating the numbers by a factor of 10x+.

FWIW, saw a headline (maybe NYT, but don’t see it now) that said ‘Hamas claims XX casualties, but the number couldn’t be verified’.

[summit]

FWIW, saw a headline (maybe NYT, but don’t see it now) that said ‘Hamas claims XX casualties, but the number couldn’t be verified’.

Right I'm also starting to see that in the reporting in the last 24 hours or so. I think they (some Western media leaders) might have caught on after the full scale of the Hospital explosion lie came to light. The media might even see their complicity in playing into Hamas's hands by repeating their lies and thereby destroying Biden's peace mission.

[ex-powderbroker]

pretty clear after the hospital bombing that all of their numbers are pulled out of their ass.

nowhere in that sentence does that mean they should be the least bit cavalier dropping bombs anywhere close to civilians.