The Leg Blaster Thread - are we having fun yet?

[2FUNKY]

You guys that are getting super sore from LB, have you not been doing any leg work before?
Week two of incorporating LB’s into my work outs. Doing them three days a week with heavy leg work two days a week. Things are progressing nicely. I have had to up my caloric intake as well as carbs to not feel fatigued during the day. I eat like crazy on my days off, just can’t seem to eat enough. Lol. Eating clean though. Well I do have a cheat day. Nothing crazy.
Snow in the forecast in town for me next week. Ski season is near!
Get busy!! Good shit everyone!!


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[AK47bp]

Torn between the leg blaster program or Ellipse Fit program.

https://youtu.be/RtfLwL3EPJc?si=QlYqjZsg77NUVR4C

Leaning towards Ellipse Fit.

[Stikki]

Hey, the Vern Gambetta leg circuit aka leg blasters. These have been around for decades, at least in Vern's format. I can't remember if the circuits were included in his books but for years he was doing the Perform Better seminars back in the day and most likely that's where the circuits caught on.

Edit: Found some notes from my archives - "This program had its origins in the early 1980’s. Originally it included the single squat and the reps were in the ten to twelve range. After experimentation this sequence and sets and rep range was settled on in the early 1990’s. "

The Gambetta leg circuit
December 18, 2010/by Vern Gambetta

The Leg Circuit is a tool I devised out of need around twenty-five years ago. It is placed in a training following the Foundational Leg phase. I have used it in many sports. It is a versatile tool if used properly. The Leg Circuit is the foundation for more specific work to follow in terms of absolute strength and plyometrics. This is a program to pu the finishing touches on a foundational strength and power endurance base. It is also a very useful tool to use in lower extremity injury rehabilitation to rebuild work capacity in preparation for return to play. The basic prerequisite for progressing to heavier lifting and high level plyometrics is the ability to perform five full leg circuits without stopping. When an athlete has progressed to this point they are ready!
The standard circuit

The key to the effectiveness of the circuit is the speed of the repetitions. The goal is one rep per second. This fast eccentric work results in extreme soreness; soreness is not the goal, but it does give feedback that you have executed the reps at proper tempo. It is best to do some striding and hurdle walkover drills after the Leg Circuit to stretch out. One rep per second is not possible on the lunge and jump squat because of the amplitude of the movements, but with those exercises it should be as close as possible to that rate. In the squat you should break parallel. The lunge length should be as long as the athlete’s leg. The step-up is an alternating step up on a low box – 14 inches. On the jump squat the arm are held at the waist to accentuate the work of the legs. The circuit is:

Bodyweight Squat: 20 Reps
Lunge: 10 Reps Each Leg
Step-up: 10 Reps Each Leg
Jump Squat: 10 Reps

Leg Circuit Progression – Twice a week Monday/Thursday or Tuesday/Saturday The eventual goal is to go through the circuits continuously without a rest.
Leg circuits for beginning athletes

For an athlete who does not have a good training base this is the progression that you should be use.
Week 1

3 circuits with 30 seconds rest between exercises and 1 min rest between circuits.

Bodyweight Squat: 10 Reps
Lunge: 5 Reps Each Leg
Step-up: 5 Reps Each Leg
Jump Squat: 5 Reps

Week 2

5 circuits with 30 seconds rest between exercises and 1 min rest between circuits.

Bodyweight Squat: 10 Reps
Lunge: 5 Reps Each Leg
Step-up: 5 Reps Each Leg
Jump Squat: 5 Reps

Week 3

3 circuits with no rest between exercises and 1 min rest between circuits.

Bodyweight Squat: 10 Reps
Lunge: 5 Reps Each Leg
Step-up: 5 Reps Each Leg
Jump Squat: 5 Reps

Week 4

5 circuits with no rest between exercises and 1 min rest between circuits.

Bodyweight Squat: 10 Reps
Lunge: 5 Reps Each Leg
Step-up: 5 Reps Each Leg
Jump Squat: 5 Reps

Week 5

For session 1: 5 circuits with 30 seconds rest between exercises and 1 min rest between circuits. For session 2: 5 circuits with no rest between exercises and 1 min rest between circuits.

Bodyweight Squat: 15 Reps
Lunge: 8 Reps Each Leg
Step-up: 8 Reps Each Leg
Jump Squat: 8 Reps

Week 6

For session 1: 5 circuits with 30 seconds rest between exercises and 1 min rest between circuits. For session 2: 5 circuits with no rest between exercises and 1 min rest between circuits.

Bodyweight Squat 20 Reps
Lunge: 10 Reps Each Leg
Step-up: 10 Reps Each Leg
Jump Squat: 10 Reps

Leg circuits for experienced athletes

The following is a six-week progression for an athlete who has a good base of training. The total volume in reps for each workout is in parenthesis:

Week 1 – 3 circuits with 45 Sec between exercises 3 Min between circuits (210)
Weeks 2 – 4 circuits with 45 Sec between exercises 2 Min between circuits (280)
Weeks 3 – 5 circuits with 30 Sec between exercises 90 Sec between circuits (350)
Weeks 4 – 5 circuits with 30 Sec between exercises 60 Sec between circuits (350)
Week 5 – 5 circuits with 30 Sec between exercises, No rest between circuits (350)
Week 6 – 5 circuits with no rest between exercises or between circuits (350)

Depending on the athletes training age the Leg Circuit can be cycled in twice during a training year. There are many progressions and variations off of this depending on the sport and athlete.

https://www.hmmrmedia.com/2010/12/th...a-leg-circuit/

[ptavv]

With heavy eccentric stuff it's very important to keep the volume low in the beginning. There's no way to know in the moment if you've overdone it and it's definitely possible to end up in the hospital with rhabdo. It is a balancing act though. You don't want to cripple yourself but you also need enough stimulus to activate the RBE. Luckily, RBE adaptations happen pretty fast, so start conservative, then when you're a few weeks in you can push hard with a lot less risk.

Rhabdo is a wildly misunderstood thing and since this thread is already a shitshow I'm going to get on my soapbox.

Rhabdomyolysis represents there being a lot of myoglobin in your bloodstream because of muscle breakdown. It's *definitely* true that that eccentrically loading muscles causes more delayed onset muscle soreness (DOMS), but it is only *maybe* true that that it causes more actual muscle breakdown. It's unsettled science as to what exactly causes DOMS and the link to muscle breakdown is weak.

It's beyond doubt that a huge variety of workout intensities and durations can cause enormous increases in muscle breakdown and yet the overwhelming majority of people who undertake efforts or training that result in such massive muscle breakdown suffer no meaningful consequences of rhabdomyolysis. A fun example is this research paper where they did pre and post analyses on people who ran a 246-km trail race. Literally every single runner had blood creatine kinase (a marker for muscle breakdown) levels that would have gotten them admitted to a hospital in the US, but none of them went to hospital and all of them did fine.

The mechanism by which rhabdo turns into a massive problem for people is when it's combined with dehydration or restricted renal blood flow (taking lots of NSAIDs and/or being dehydrated).

Being sore (even super sore!) a day or three after a workout is not a sign that you have created a huge physiology problem unless you're a total idiot and are also not drinking water, are pounding NSAIDs, and drinking a bunch of alcohol or some other fun combination of things that 20-something males love to do.

[johnnyg82]

Are leg blasters the new CrossFit? So many opinions and experts here.

Is there a video link to these LB motherfuckers so I can see what all hype is about and start torturing myself?

https://www.backcountry.com/explore/...-alpine-skiing

From 2013

[Dantheman]

Anecdotally, back in the day crossfit.com had a very active forum. Over the years literally dozens of people posted legit stories about getting hospitalized with real, bona fide rhabdo. Peeing coca cola, major swelling that sometimes required fasciotomies, major atrophy after they recovered, etc. A handful of heavily eccentric exercises were always the culprits. GHD sit-ups and pullup negatives are the ones I remember seeing the most.

I agree it's a low probability, but not zero, and a lot of people have never even heard of rhabdo so I think a PSA is reasonable.

[GoSlowGoFar]

Anecdotally, back in the day crossfit.com had a very active forum. Over the years literally dozens of people posted legit stories about getting hospitalized with real, bona fide rhabdo. Peeing coca cola, major swelling that sometimes required fasciotomies, major atrophy after they recovered, etc. A handful of heavily eccentric exercises were always the culprits. GHD sit-ups and pullup negatives are the ones I remember seeing the most.

I agree it's a low probability, but not zero, and a lot of people have never even heard of rhabdo so I think a PSA is reasonable.

Fun fact, my dog got Rhabdo in 2020. Vet didn't mention whether or not it had to do with her doing loaded eccentric exercises though.

[::: :::]

i got rhabdo before CrossFit was a thing
i'm that core

(not something i wanna do again tho)

[pfluffenmeister]

I don't know about you guys, but I'm doing leg blasters to to get radbro!

[zion zig zag]

Im currently treating my rhabdo with bourbon.


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[caderader]

God knows I've felt like I had rhabdo from these f*ckers. I remember the first year I installed them into my ski training after reading that Backcountry.com article maybe 2016 or so. I was needing help to sit on the toilet for 4 or 5 days.

Now days I value my limited ski days too much to be that out of shape. As a flatlander who's ski season usually starts during Mobile's generous Mardi Gras break in ~Feb I don't start leg blasters until about thanksgiving or into December. I like to go through that classic progression described in the Backcountry article. I start 8 weeks before my 'season'. 4 weeks out I'll go to maintenance with 5 full blasters1-2x per week and spend the month of January doing a routine I derived from some podcasts and articles re: Zahan Bilimoria's training guidance. https://freeskier.com/stories/samsara-experience

Leg blasters are great to huff and puff but serious cardio is a must because I live at like a literal 12' above sea level. I have read uphill athlete and try to do lots of long slow distance with some stuff to keep speed. TrainAsOne is an insanely good app to plan my running and I highly recommend it to runners who are nerds &/or runners who want someone to set their plan for them and know it's based on science.

This year at 34, I'm trying to add in more plyo as explosion/being able to jump is ever so slowly becoming a bit harder!

When you come out for 1-3 weeks a year you don't have time to ski into shape. I'm so thankful that as I've aged I've gotten into a fitness routine, allows me to still be doing things I've never done skiing!

[ptavv]

Anecdotally, back in the day crossfit.com had a very active forum. Over the years literally dozens of people posted legit stories about getting hospitalized with real, bona fide rhabdo. Peeing coca cola, major swelling that sometimes required fasciotomies, major atrophy after they recovered, etc. A handful of heavily eccentric exercises were always the culprits. GHD sit-ups and pullup negatives are the ones I remember seeing the most.

I agree it's a low probability, but not zero, and a lot of people have never even heard of rhabdo so I think a PSA is reasonable.

I'm absolutely not saying exertional rhabdo doesn't happen. I'm just saying that there's little correlation between the severity of DOMS and rhabdo. There's not even correlation between the severity of DOMS and the actual damage to muscle as measured by blood tests (jury is out on whether eccentric loading [versus concentric] causes more structural disruption to the macroscopic structure of muscles which is why it's generally considered a stronger stimulus). The data that's out there suggests that long endurance activities are the most common exertion trigger of rhabdo (more than HIIT and lifting at least) but that usually there are other risk factors present (as I'm saying)

A long time ago I used to work in San Antonio where USAF basic training is and many of the 18-24 year old male basic trainees would have a layoff between finishing basic and moving on to whatever their next school was; they would get held over in San Antonio and have nothing to do but a lot of access to the gym. So they did what bored young men do and would do two-a-day work outs in central Texas heat and humidity, pound energy drinks, consume diuretic laden workout supplements, and then get admitted to the hospital with rhabdo. Notably (in my experience anyway) the junior AF guys almost never got rhabdo during basic training because the instructors make the trainees drink so much water.

For nearly all rhabdo cases like that what happens if you get admitted to the hospital is that you get a bunch of IV fluids to ensure that your kidneys keep peeing out the myoglobin and then you go home in a day or two once its proven that your kidneys are working fine. The severe cases are the ones where people aren't making any urine, or only a tiny amount of cola colored urine or the ones where your muscles get so swollen you lose your pulse beyond it and those people definitely need medical attention.

The "incidence" of exertional rhabdo has certainly risen over the past 20+ years, but it's totally unclear (and unsettled in the literature) whether that represents changing medical practice patterns and diagnostic definitions or a societal change (elevated BMI is significantly associated with rhabdo risk so…)

[2FUNKY]

Whelp, if the thread wasn’t a shit show before it sure as fuck is now. ((Face palm))


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[Foggy_Goggles]

Don't do leg blasters...you might die!

I appreciate the education (never heard of rhabdo prior) but I'm thinking for the "listen to your body, make sure you drink your water" crowd, the risk is pretty low.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

A few years back we treated a guy with rhabdo, we called him “The Jailhouse Crossfitter”. He and his cell mate had a competition to see who could do the most air squats. We had to do fasciotomies on both his thighs. He almost died from kidney failure too. He was 26 iirc


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[bodywhomper]

Anybody else keep reading it as “Rambo”?

[Dantheman]

Whelp, if the thread wasn’t a shit show before it sure as fuck is now. ((Face palm))

I wouldn't say that. ptavv has added some great context about rhabdo and how to prevent/avoid/treat it. Just personally, while the case may not be entirely settled in the scientific literature, the anecdata I saw on the Crossfit forums is still enough to give me pause when doing unfamiliar exercises with high eccentric load. It's not like you can do a RCT where you have two groups of people do a concentric exercise and another an eccentric exercise until they all get rhabdo and then compare how much volume was required. That would dangerous and profoundly unethical.

Regardless, even putting the rhabdo issue aside, serious DOMS that leaves you crippled and unable to train for days is counterproductive. So, the main piece of advice I gave still stands--with heavy eccentric stuff keep the volume low in the beginning, then when you're a few weeks in you can push hard without derailing your training.

[Boosh]

Saturday: 3 mini LB's, followed by an additional 3x10 sumo squats with 35lb dumbbell, 3x10 (ea. leg) single leg RDL's with 10lb dumbs; 3x 30 seconds single leg balance board with hip abductors; and a handful of core work

Sunday: hamstrings obliterated, walking bow-legged, could barely bend over

Today: still quite sore, questioning if I have rahbdo, stoked for ski season

[I've seen black diamonds!]

serious DOMS that leaves you crippled and unable to train for days is counterproductive.

This. You've got to get into some wacky shit to bring on rhabdo. But making yourself so sore that you struggle to walk down stairs not a smart way to get stronger. More sore ≠ better results.

When we are young we tend to think a training as doing lots of hard shit so we get stronger/faster. As we get older we realize that the real challenge in training is deciding how to allocate our finite capacity to recover from stress. And we need to make these decisions while being cognizant of managing and avoiding injuries. Also sometimes we need to just use up all our recovery doing something fun. Because that is the point of training in the first place. If I'm going to wreck myself it will be doing something awesome. Not jumping up and down in my basement. If you're having a hard time squatting on the pot today you probably did one or two too many sets.

[californiagrown]

When we are young we tend to think a training as doing lots of hard shit so we get stronger/faster. As we get older we realize that the real challenge in training is deciding how to allocate our finite capacity to recover from stress. And we need to make these decisions while being cognizant of managing and avoiding injuries. Also sometimes we need to just use up all our recovery doing something fun. Because that is the point of training in the first place. If I'm going to wreck myself it will be doing something awesome. Not jumping up and down in my basement. If you're having a hard time squatting on the pot today you probably did one or two too many sets.

100%.

[ptavv]

So, the main piece of advice I gave still stands--with heavy eccentric stuff keep the volume low in the beginning, then when you're a few weeks in you can push hard without derailing your training.

I agree with this 100%. It takes a surprisingly small amount of strength work at surprisingly low frequencies for recreational athlete people to gain or maintain the things they want.

Most people who struggle to ski a 2-3-4k foot vertical run without feeling a significant burn in their legs would almost certainly be better off spending their training time improving their aerobic capacity rather than hammering their legs to handle more strength work to failure over short periods of time.

as isbd says above me, we have a totally messed up cultural view of what a workout is supposed to be/do/feel like. The more we can get away from feeling like a workout needs to make you feel wrecked or depleted and change the mindset to one of enjoyment, where we want to go longer farther faster because it's pleasurable and doesn't leave us feeling wrecked… that's the ticket.

The thing someone said once that seems obvious but helps to hear often is: we don't get stronger during the workout, we get stronger recovering from the workout

If it takes so long to recover from the workout that you're not working out you're doing something wrong

[GoSlowGoFar]

Most people who struggle to ski a 2-3-4k foot vertical run without feeling a significant burn in their legs would almost certainly be better off spending their training time improving their aerobic capacity rather than hammering their legs to handle more strength work to failure over short periods of time.

100% and what I was trying to allude to in earlier posts.

[davjr96]

Read this. Fantastic book. 2019 so some of the newest studies aren't in it, but this will give you a bunch of answers.

Long and short of it is that many of those things will give you small improvement, consistent with placebo effect, but they aren't stackable. Once you've gotten it you've gotten it. Rest and sleep work. Then massage helps if you aren't moving much otherwise. Most everything else, including cold, ice, pneumatic boots, etc are testing at placebo levels.

But if you don't have time to spin things out, move a bit or run easy, then the massage type stuff can help to a small extent - massage, massage guns, maybe tights, maybe boots.

But read the book.

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Go-Athle.../dp/039325433X

Read this book on suggestion from this thread. Would plus one the recommendation for sure.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

I don’t have any issues with fatigue at the beginning of ski season anymore because I keep hiking up and down steep hills into ski season. When my sole recreational activity was cycling during the warmer months, the first week or so of ski season was painful even though I was in great shape for cycling. It doesn’t take CrossFit to get you in ski shape


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[Island Bay]

You guys that are getting super sore from LB, have you not been doing any leg work before?
Week two of incorporating LB’s into my work outs. Doing them three days a week with heavy leg work two days a week. Things are progressing nicely. I have had to up my caloric intake as well as carbs to not feel fatigued during the day. I eat like crazy on my days off, just can’t seem to eat enough. Lol. Eating clean though. Well I do have a cheat day. Nothing crazy.
Snow in the forecast in town for me next week. Ski season is near!
Get busy!! Good shit everyone!!


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Since tearing my hamstring in May I haven't done any leg exercise apart from walking, but quite a bit of that, and some light theraband hamstring stuff. Did 3 mini LBs two days ago, and yes I can definitely feel it now.

Somehow I managed to do some good skiing this winter, but there were times when my injured leg just collapsed.