50 years to the day

[Viva]

Recent atrocities are terrible, that said, your post is one of the most racist things that I’ve read on this forum. I’m sure every person, man, woman and child deserves your hatred.

This thread really highlights how hate, racism and intolerance has infected all segments of society. It’s not limited by race, ideology or religion.]

d00d, I must challenge this notion.

Let's talk about principles.

Hamas just conducted a military operation designed with the express purpose of attacking defenseless civilians. More, it emphasized torture, kidnapping for future, and prolonged, torture, and wide-spread publication of incredibly barbarous acts from a people not known for civilized restraint.

This is their chosen political path.

No one forced them to do this.

Their principle is on display, and it remains for us to choose whether or not to accept it or oppose it.

REgrettably, there are a bunch of folks here who seem to celebrate these principles. And they'll qualify their position with: mindless slaughter of innocents is acceptable if the other side does it first, or if the alternative is too expensive, or grievances have taken too long to redress, or the victims are of some unfavorable religion, or the victims' sixth-generation ancestors did something, or...

Gradualism pretty much always results from poor moral values.

Do the people of Gaza have legitimate grievances against Israel? Hell yeah.

Israel has transgressed, committed human rights violations, and even war crimes against the people of Gaza. Yeah, there's a lot to criticize about Israel. But this does not challenge one of the most fundamental principle:

In no fucking way do such grievances justify slaughter of innocents.

Israel is gonna have revenge, and the emergency coalition government states that their goal is the total destruction of Hamas, not just a military defeat. This is gonna kill a lot more innocents, and maybe that was a part of Hamas's objective all along, as they may be trying to gain some sort of political advantage here.. But there is a strong ethical difference between specifically targeting the innocent, and hitting them because they're in range of an area target. The latter sucks, but any arguments against it in this context are simply apologies for terrorism and specious as fuck.

This is, of course, assuming Israel actually focuses on Hamas instead of stomping all of Gaza. And this is what will happen- I doubt that Israel loses focus of her principles.

What we're talking about here is war vs. terrorism. They are not the same thing. War is "diplomacy by other means," and it's function is to clarify a power relationship between nations. War is also a resort, and as such, the principle of self-defense is sacrosanct, regardless of the power differential between aggressor and defender.

Hamas, ain't doing this, and can't claim self-defense. The power relationship between Hamas and Israel is unchanged- if anything, Israel has a stronger hand now that moral outrage is in her favor. Hamas never sought to change this. Instead, Hamas's attack is an extreme example of terrorism- an attempt to influence politics or ideology through threats and violence.

No one should have any principled objection to an armed response to terrorism.

[rideit]

Can’t we just drop 1 Billion bombs, designed to diffuse aerosolized Ecstasy, into all of the West Bank, Jerusalem, and Tel Aviv?

I mean, it probably would help.


That’s all I got.

[summit]

Viva you should probably publish that somewhere. Well stated.

[subtle plague]

I wonder which billionaire funded this attack?

Someone from the bitcoin thread?

On a more serious note: this will go on forever. And even people fleeing that crap take their fucked up ideologies with them. Germany has a few problematic criminal families from the Lebanon who fled in the 80s , uneducated refugees who are hard to integrate from the last 10 years.

So it pisses me even more of that none of the rich oil states of the gulf want to help their islamic brethren when they flee but always have a few Million to spare to Support Terrorists or radical mosques and islam further estranging the refugees from the countries that ACTUALLY took them in. Fuck you Saudi Arabia, Quatar, and Iran. And maybe every other idiotic country where they attack embassies because someone torched a book about some islamic gandalf ( yes im talking about the holy Quran) half a world away.

[riser4]

d00d, I must challenge this notion.

Let's talk about principles.

Hamas just conducted a military operation designed with the express purpose of attacking defenseless civilians. More, it emphasized torture, kidnapping for future, and prolonged, torture, and wide-spread publication of incredibly barbarous acts from a people not known for civilized restraint.

This is their chosen political path.

No one forced them to do this.

Their principle is on display, and it remains for us to choose whether or not to accept it or oppose it.

REgrettably, there are a bunch of folks here who seem to celebrate these principles. And they'll qualify their position with: mindless slaughter of innocents is acceptable if the other side does it first, or if the alternative is too expensive, or grievances have taken too long to redress, or the victims are of some unfavorable religion, or the victims' sixth-generation ancestors did something, or...

Gradualism pretty much always results from poor moral values.

Do the people of Gaza have legitimate grievances against Israel? Hell yeah.

Israel has transgressed, committed human rights violations, and even war crimes against the people of Gaza. Yeah, there's a lot to criticize about Israel. But this does not challenge one of the most fundamental principle:

In no fucking way do such grievances justify slaughter of innocents.

Israel is gonna have revenge, and the emergency coalition government states that their goal is the total destruction of Hamas, not just a military defeat. This is gonna kill a lot more innocents, and maybe that was a part of Hamas's objective all along, as they may be trying to gain some sort of political advantage here.. But there is a strong ethical difference between specifically targeting the innocent, and hitting them because they're in range of an area target. The latter sucks, but any arguments against it in this context are simply apologies for terrorism and specious as fuck.

This is, of course, assuming Israel actually focuses on Hamas instead of stomping all of Gaza. And this is what will happen- I doubt that Israel loses focus of her principles.

What we're talking about here is war vs. terrorism. They are not the same thing. War is "diplomacy by other means," and it's function is to clarify a power relationship between nations. War is also a resort, and as such, the principle of self-defense is sacrosanct, regardless of the power differential between aggressor and defender.

Hamas, ain't doing this, and can't claim self-defense. The power relationship between Hamas and Israel is unchanged- if anything, Israel has a stronger hand now that moral outrage is in her favor. Hamas never sought to change this. Instead, Hamas's attack is an extreme example of terrorism- an attempt to influence politics or ideology through threats and violence.

No one should have any principled objection to an armed response to terrorism.

No justification for Hamas or it's barbaric actions from over the weekend coming from me. Where do Sabra and Shatila fit into the above? Eye for an eye until everyone's blind?

[MagnificentUnicorn]

d00d, I must challenge this notion.

Let's talk about principles.

Hamas just conducted a military operation designed with the express purpose of attacking defenseless civilians. More, it emphasized torture, kidnapping for future, and prolonged, torture, and wide-spread publication of incredibly barbarous acts from a people not known for civilized restraint.

This is their chosen political path.

No one forced them to do this.

Their principle is on display, and it remains for us to choose whether or not to accept it or oppose it.

REgrettably, there are a bunch of folks here who seem to celebrate these principles. And they'll qualify their position with: mindless slaughter of innocents is acceptable if the other side does it first, or if the alternative is too expensive, or grievances have taken too long to redress, or the victims are of some unfavorable religion, or the victims' sixth-generation ancestors did something, or...

Gradualism pretty much always results from poor moral values.

Do the people of Gaza have legitimate grievances against Israel? Hell yeah.

Israel has transgressed, committed human rights violations, and even war crimes against the people of Gaza. Yeah, there's a lot to criticize about Israel. But this does not challenge one of the most fundamental principle:

In no fucking way do such grievances justify slaughter of innocents.

Israel is gonna have revenge, and the emergency coalition government states that their goal is the total destruction of Hamas, not just a military defeat. This is gonna kill a lot more innocents, and maybe that was a part of Hamas's objective all along, as they may be trying to gain some sort of political advantage here.. But there is a strong ethical difference between specifically targeting the innocent, and hitting them because they're in range of an area target. The latter sucks, but any arguments against it in this context are simply apologies for terrorism and specious as fuck.

This is, of course, assuming Israel actually focuses on Hamas instead of stomping all of Gaza. And this is what will happen- I doubt that Israel loses focus of her principles.

What we're talking about here is war vs. terrorism. They are not the same thing. War is "diplomacy by other means," and it's function is to clarify a power relationship between nations. War is also a resort, and as such, the principle of self-defense is sacrosanct, regardless of the power differential between aggressor and defender.

Hamas, ain't doing this, and can't claim self-defense. The power relationship between Hamas and Israel is unchanged- if anything, Israel has a stronger hand now that moral outrage is in her favor. Hamas never sought to change this. Instead, Hamas's attack is an extreme example of terrorism- an attempt to influence politics or ideology through threats and violence.

No one should have any principled objection to an armed response to terrorism.

Read my next post. I stated that nothing justifies these attacks.

Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas. In the context of the quote you responded to I was talking about gravitylover basically calling the people in Gaza little better than animals, that’s dehumanizing and racist. My post was a response to his racist post not the situation over there.

Again I stated more than once that nothing justifies the attacks that started this conflict. Please don’t characterize me as celebrating “these principles”.


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[gravitylover]

Dehumanizing? Sorry but barbaric isn't strong enough. Fucking children, seniors, handicapped and otherwise totally defenseless people that were, and are still being, abused, raped and slaughtered in ways that are beyond heinous are acts committed by animals devoid of most of the things that make us human. Racist? Is it your family or your people that are the direct targets of a group whose stated objective is to eliminate you? It seems to me that the actions that are following the words are justification for those targets to react as they see fit, not as some person 10k miles away thinks they should.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Dehumanizing? Sorry but barbaric isn't strong enough. Fucking children, seniors, handicapped and otherwise totally defenseless people that were, and are still being, abused, raped and slaughtered in ways that are beyond heinous are acts committed by animals devoid of most of the things that make us human. Racist? Is it your family or your people that are the direct targets of a group whose stated objective is to eliminate you? It seems to me that the actions that are following the words are justification for those targets to react as they see fit, not as some person 10k miles away thinks they should.

So you’re saying every person in Gaza is an animal. Got it.

I never said anything about the response to these attacks. I was responding to your post calling all Palestinians in Gaza animals. Now you’ve made it clear that is your stance, it is dehumanizing and racist.


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[Timberridge]

Holy crap. The Jews and Arabs are fighting again?

[gravitylover]

Everyone? Go back through what I've said and you'll see that I keep qualifying it by those whose ACTIONS prove it.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Everyone? Go back through what I've said and you'll see that I keep qualifying it by those whose ACTIONS prove it.

You posted that Israel restricted the movement of people from Gaza into Israel for good reason. Why wouldn’t they, they’ve shown themselves to be angry, hateful and not much better than animals. That was the gist of your post. Are you saying that’s not what you meant? That’s how it reads. You provided no qualifications in the post that I called dehumanizing and racist.

Read back through the last few pages, I’m not the only person that read it that way.

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[MontuckyFried]

Not everyone in Gaza is Hamas.

Perhaps you didn't get the memo, BUT Hamas has maintained the majority of the people's support in a plurality of polls over the years.

Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas
https://apnews.com/article/hamas-mid...819c34da08fd87

I know what you're trying to say, but make no mistake. The hatred toward the Israelis runs deep. Even amongst the children. Watch the absolutely heart wrenching video of a group of young children whapping a crying young Israeli boy hostage with sticks and yelling at him. I implore you. Watch ALL the videos Hamas is putting out themselves. Look at evil in the face. Women who are bleeding through their pants from the vicious gang rapes, wounded people getting botched beheadings with garden hoes, the celebratory cheers and dancing over the mutilated bodies, so on and so forth. You been following? Hamas has always been a bunch of terrorist a-holes, BUT this time they decided to go full ISIS.

This is tragic beyond words. These asswipes can't hide behind civilians any longer as is their SOP. Not sure Israel's going to hold back this time.

[dunfree]

Interesting interview with someone who was in one of the kibbutz under attack, and grandfather in the story sounds bad ass
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ssacre/675596/

and half the videos montucky is talking about were put out by Hamas. They murdered and tortured for the camera, that was the intent of this. Pure barbarism

[::: :::]

I wonder which billionaire funded this attack?

Putin
Xi Jinping
Kim Jong Un
Khamenei
MSB
Nasrallah


who the fuck knows?

Purportedly Iran funnels $100M/yr to Hamas to support their cause

This whole leadup was incredible, launching 1000’s of rockets from a territory buttoned up like a prison camp

[J. Barron DeJong]

Interesting interview with someone who was in one of the kibbutz under attack, and grandfather in the story sounds bad ass
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ssacre/675596/

and half the videos montucky is talking about were put out by Hamas. They murdered and tortured for the camera, that was the intent of this. Pure barbarism

Yes, the attack were barbaric. Hamas is barbaric. That their stated goal to wipe Israeli’s off the face of the earth is barbaric.

Which makes it a fucking cynical political move to promote them because you don’t want to entertain any notion of a Palestinian state:



The night after the terror attacks, a family of 19 was killed in an Israeli missile strike on Gaza. A building 100 yards away was hit with a warning strike to allow people to clear out. The family and their neighbors checked where the strike occurred, saw it wasn’t a nearby building, and went back inside to shelter. Then the strike hit their building, not the one the warning strike hit.

Was that family supporting or opposing Hamas? Would they have moved from Gaza if they were allowed to? Fuck if I know. Is a missile strike less barbaric than the terror attacks? Sure.

[J. Barron DeJong]

d00d, I must challenge this notion.

Let's talk about principles.

Hamas just conducted a military operation designed with the express purpose of attacking defenseless civilians. More, it emphasized torture, kidnapping for future, and prolonged, torture, and wide-spread publication of incredibly barbarous acts from a people not known for civilized restraint.

This is their chosen political path.

No one forced them to do this.

Their principle is on display, and it remains for us to choose whether or not to accept it or oppose it.

REgrettably, there are a bunch of folks here who seem to celebrate these principles. And they'll qualify their position with: mindless slaughter of innocents is acceptable if the other side does it first, or if the alternative is too expensive, or grievances have taken too long to redress, or the victims are of some unfavorable religion, or the victims' sixth-generation ancestors did something, or...

Gradualism pretty much always results from poor moral values.

Do the people of Gaza have legitimate grievances against Israel? Hell yeah.

Israel has transgressed, committed human rights violations, and even war crimes against the people of Gaza. Yeah, there's a lot to criticize about Israel. But this does not challenge one of the most fundamental principle:

In no fucking way do such grievances justify slaughter of innocents.

Israel is gonna have revenge, and the emergency coalition government states that their goal is the total destruction of Hamas, not just a military defeat. This is gonna kill a lot more innocents, and maybe that was a part of Hamas's objective all along, as they may be trying to gain some sort of political advantage here.. But there is a strong ethical difference between specifically targeting the innocent, and hitting them because they're in range of an area target. The latter sucks, but any arguments against it in this context are simply apologies for terrorism and specious as fuck.

This is, of course, assuming Israel actually focuses on Hamas instead of stomping all of Gaza. And this is what will happen- I doubt that Israel loses focus of her principles.

What we're talking about here is war vs. terrorism. They are not the same thing. War is "diplomacy by other means," and it's function is to clarify a power relationship between nations. War is also a resort, and as such, the principle of self-defense is sacrosanct, regardless of the power differential between aggressor and defender.

Hamas, ain't doing this, and can't claim self-defense. The power relationship between Hamas and Israel is unchanged- if anything, Israel has a stronger hand now that moral outrage is in her favor. Hamas never sought to change this. Instead, Hamas's attack is an extreme example of terrorism- an attempt to influence politics or ideology through threats and violence.

No one should have any principled objection to an armed response to terrorism.

All due respect, but I haven’t seen ANYONE, on here celebrating Hamas’s principles, or saying their grievances justify the terror attacks.

[J. Barron DeJong]

You posted that Israel restricted the movement of people from Gaza into Israel for good reason. Why wouldn’t they, they’ve shown themselves to be angry, hateful and not much better than animals. That was the gist of your post. Are you saying that’s not what you meant? That’s how it reads. You provided no qualifications in the post that I called dehumanizing and racist.

Read back through the last few pages, I’m not the only person that read it that way.

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Yup.

[Cisco Kid]

The Palestinian people forced by the world to live in the ghetto called Gaza are not Hamas. From what I hear Bibi say, what he want's to do the the Palestinians in Gaza seems to be calling for sounds to me like he want's a program of genocide. Am I missing something?

[Cono Este]

Israel is the only, liberal, progressive, democracy in the Middle East. And the youngsters, at that festival, were some of the most liberal progressive people in Israel. Gay rights, even Palestinian causes were probably at the top of their lists. People you’d see dancing at the quad at Uni.


I am literally avoiding all new video on what happened there.

[Viva]

All due respect, but I haven’t seen ANYONE, on here celebrating Hamas’s principles, or saying their grievances justify the terror attacks.

You're right. I intended to edit my post to clarify that by "here", I meant the West, but kinda got lost, as It was a long post.

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[MontuckyFried]

The Palestinian people forced by the world to live in the ghetto called Gaza are not Hamas. From what I hear Bibi say, what he want's to do the the Palestinians in Gaza seems to be calling for sounds to me like he want's a program of genocide. Am I missing something?

So "genocide" means providing Gaza with free water/power ever since relinquishing control of the area as of 2005? If genocide's his goal, he's done a pretty bad job of it.

ON THE OTHER HAND, look at the videos Hamas has been putting out. THEY'RE the ones only content with the complete and total eradication of the others. And yes, they indeed have the electoral support of the Gazans and by AP polling data, the majority of Palestinians believe in Hamas.

From the Hamas Covenant:

'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble)
...
'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.' (Article 6)
...
'[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13)

You appear woefully ignorant of who Hamas is, and sadly the local support they truly do have.

[MultiVerse]

The Palestinian people forced by the world to live in the ghetto called Gaza are not Hamas. From what I hear Bibi say, what he want's to do the the Palestinians in Gaza seems to be calling for sounds to me like he want's a program of genocide. Am I missing something?

I don't know if you're missing anything other than Hamas rules Gaza. They're not a fringe minority terrorist organization. Hamas is the elected government of Gaza. There haven't been free and open elections in Gaza since 2005-07 so polls are the only thing to go on. If the polls are accurate then Hamas has majority support among Palestinians in Gaza.

Generations of Palestinian children are brainwashed in school to believe Jews are evil and must be killed. The funding for these schools comes from the UN, the West, and even America in the form of aid, although not directly. As the government in charge, Hamas controls the funds and sets the curriculum. The same children, many of whom are functionally illiterate, are then given weapons when they become young adults and are told to kill Jews.

https://twitter.com/anneethekee/stat...09685952885198


There are dissenting Palestinian & Arab voices who oppose Hamas. Mansour Abbas, the leader of the Arab party that joined the previous anti-Netanyahu Israeli government said "I call on the leadership of Gaza's Palestinian factions to release your captives. Islam's values command us not to incarcerate women, children and elderly. This humanitarian step is desirable immediately".

[TNKen]

So, considering the West is backing Israel, when do you think the US will be targeted again?

[J. Barron DeJong]

You're right. I intended to edit my post to clarify that by "here", I meant the West, but kinda got lost, as It was a long post.

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Noted. 100% agree that it’s disgusting to be celebrating those attacks.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Israel is the only, liberal, progressive, democracy in the Middle East. And the youngsters, at that festival, were some of the most liberal progressive people in Israel. Gay rights, even Palestinian causes were probably at the top of their lists. People you’d see dancing at the quad at Uni.


I am literally avoiding all new video on what happened there.

I know what you’re trying to get at, but the government that’s been in power for the past 14 years (?) is not progressive, or liberal, and lately is very much disinterested in democracy.