50 years to the day

[JimmyCarter]

So "genocide" means providing Gaza with free water/power ever since relinquishing control of the area as of 2005? If genocide's his goal, he's done a pretty bad job of it.

Ahh the benevolent Israelis!

https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/...n-territories/

One can and should condemn Hamas for these atrocities but don’t gloss over how monstrous the Israeli apartheid is.

[dunfree]

I know what you’re trying to get at, but the government that’s been in power for the past 14 years (?) is not progressive, or liberal, and lately is very much disinterested in democracy.

still more than it’s neighbors, and as evidenced by the massive protests this summer, many people there don’t like this turn. In contrast to Palestine where Hamas still have plurality support in Gaza.

war is shitty in part because people die, and I’ve no idea if that rocket was a mistake or not. I also have no idea how one is supposed to deal with a place where barbarians are well integrated.

[J. Barron DeJong]

So "genocide" means providing Gaza with free water/power ever since relinquishing control of the area as of 2005? If genocide's his goal, he's done a pretty bad job of it.

ON THE OTHER HAND, look at the videos Hamas has been putting out. THEY'RE the ones only content with the complete and total eradication of the others. And yes, they indeed have the electoral support of the Gazans and by AP polling data, the majority of Palestinians believe in Hamas.

From the Hamas Covenant:

You appear woefully ignorant of who Hamas is, and sadly the local support they truly do have.

Cisco’s point is that Netanyahu is intentionally elevating Hamas, who is all the things you say they are. His question is whether he’s doing that intentionally so that he has a reason for further killing of Palestinians in Gaza.

So, what’s is his reason for elevating Hamas? At best, it’s just because he knows that as long as they stay in power there will be no one to negotiate with over a Palestinian state.

[mud]

Putin?

CPAC could be on the list.

[Cisco Kid]

You appear woefully ignorant of who Hamas is, and sadly the local support they truly do have.

You appear woefully ignorant of knowing the difference between the people of Palestine and the Hamas.

Fun fact. Columbus day was invented by Italians because at the time, Italian = Mafia to most Americans.

[highangle]

I know what you’re trying to get at, but the government that’s been in power for the past 14 years (?) is not progressive, or liberal, and lately is very much disinterested in democracy.

That's beside the point. Machinegunning raves is a war crime and don't try to justify it.

[Timberridge]

Fun fact. Columbus day was invented by Italians because at the time, Italian = Mafia to most Americans.

Another fun fact. In ancient Assyria, they used to celebrate Hammurabi Day. It's a holiday that's faded into the historical dustbin unfortunately.

[gravitylover]

@Montucky and Mv thanks for saying it better than me. As we hear more from family over there my usual cold self is getting kind of emotional.

So, considering the West is backing Israel, when do you think the US will be targeted again?

Any minute or later or... I think that we'd be arrogant to think that it won't touch us.

I know what you’re trying to get at, but the government that’s been in power for the past 14 years (?) is not progressive, or liberal, and lately is very much disinterested in democracy.

I can't disagree and it has created quite the divide, not just the obvious within Israel but among supporters worldwide.

[J. Barron DeJong]

That's beside the point. Machinegunning raves is a war crime and don't try to justify it.

No one’s justifying it!

[highangle]

No one’s justifying it!

They're just being careful to note that Israel Bad and America is the Great Satan, right?

[J. Barron DeJong]

They're just being careful to note that Israel Bad, right?

FFS. Yeah man, that’s all I’m trying to do here.

Edit: Shit you got me. I think America is Satanic. I happened to choose to move here because I’m a Satan worshipper.

[dunfree]

Cisco’s point is that Netanyahu is intentionally elevating Hamas, who is all the things you say they are. His question is whether he’s doing that intentionally so that he has a reason for further killing of Palestinians in Gaza.

So, what’s is his reason for elevating Hamas? At best, it’s just because he knows that as long as they stay in power there will be no one to negotiate with over a Palestinian state.

There’s no one to negotiate with because there’s no popular support on either side for a two state solution now. Especially among the youth in Gaza. The time for that is blown. An economically thriving well armed apartheid state vs a poor theocratic state committed to suicidal destruction of an entire people. Not a good situation.

[dunfree]

That's beside the point. Machinegunning raves is a war crime and don't try to justify it.

nah, it’s just fucking terrorism. And the rest of the horrible shit happening is just sociopathy, was there much more of a plan than rape, loot, and brutally slaughter once you cross the wall?

[MontuckyFried]

One can and should condemn Hamas for these atrocities but don’t gloss over how monstrous the Israeli apartheid is.

While I can acknowledge things haven't been 100% rosy and things aren't always as black and white as they initially seem, in THIS case if everyone can't clearly discern who the truly evil ones are, then I'm not even sure what to say.

Thankfully nobody here is justifying the attacks, and while I truly do appreciate that, there are certainly some who are dabbling in sympathies. You can talk about how "monstrous" the Israeli apartheid is all you want, however, but perhaps terms like that should be reserved more for what we just saw. Now THAT'S monstrous. This is a clear cut case. Sure, we've seen the usual atrocities of war before but jeez. We have NEVER in our lifetimes seen anything quite like this on a scale such as this. Particularly posted to social media.

Serious question: Have you watched the videos of the attacks? I mean the truly horrific ones. I seriously had nightmares all night last night and couldn't sleep for many hours. I couldn't eat dinner. I was pretty quiet with my family this morning. All I could think about were some of the hostage videos I saw with the children, thinking of my own if we were in this situation. I can't even imagine.

[ex-powderbroker]

was there much more of a plan than rape, loot, and brutally slaughter once you cross the wall?

kidnap?

[Viva]

Cisco’s point is that Netanyahu is intentionally elevating Hamas, who is all the things you say they are. His question is whether he’s doing that intentionally so that he has a reason for further killing of Palestinians in Gaza.

I doubt this.

But were it indeed the case, Netanyahu could never allow such a degree of embarrassment and carnage. What happened in Israel created a significant political crisis that Bibi is unlikely to survive.

Unless there's a revolution, or attempt to effect change in another sovereign nation, false flag naratives can't support this- to move swiftly, politics have to remain predictable.

At least that's what I remember from Macchiavelli.

[mud]

[LegoSkier]

Another fun fact. In ancient Assyria, they used to celebrate Hammurabi Day. It's a holiday that's faded into the historical dustbin unfortunately.

As this board's token Assyrian, I approve of bringing back Hammurabi Day.

[J. Barron DeJong]

There’s no one to negotiate with because there’s no popular support on either side for a two state solution now. Especially among the youth in Gaza. The time for that is blown. An economically thriving well armed apartheid state vs a poor theocratic state committed to suicidal destruction of an entire people. Not a good situation.

I agree with all that. Especially the ‘not a good situation’ which is the point I’ve been harping on.

But it didn’t clarify what Netanyahu’s desired outcomes were when he had a stated policy of ‘bolstering’ Hamas. He against a Palestinian state, so then what? Just more of the same forever?

[ghosthop]

I also have no idea how one is supposed to deal with a place where barbarians are well integrated.

my wife told me last night that the median age in Gaza is 18. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Palestinian children that make it through this don't end up in some sort of re-education.

[J. Barron DeJong]

I doubt this.

I think I need to make myself clear here. I doubt this as well. I just don’t think Netanyahu has any interest in taking any steps that would break the violent cycle that is worsening. And Hamas certainly doesn’t have any plans for a negotiated peace.

[J. Barron DeJong]

my wife told me last night that the median age in Gaza is 18. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Palestinian children that make it through this don't end up in some sort of re-education.

I believe the numbers I’ve seen are median age of 19, and about 44% 15 or younger.

[Timberridge]

As this board's token Assyrian, I approve of bringing back Hammurabi Day.

By all accounts he was a great leader. We need someone like that today. Long live Hammurabi and his Code.

[MultiVerse]

IBut it didn’t clarify what Netanyahu’s desired outcomes were when he had a stated policy of ‘bolstering’ Hamas. He against a Palestinian state, so then what? Just more of the same forever?

Clearly Netanyahu misjudged Hamas. Despite the fact Hamas openly told the world it stood for killing Jews, Netanyahu thought he could manage Hamas by allowing Hamas to remain in power through graft. By allowing Hamas to take a percentage of Gaza's trade and aid, Likud thought they could moderate the level of violence.

He wasn't alone. The UN, NGOs, Western governments, etc., thought they could democratize and dradicalize Hamas into becoming a not so bad bad-actor. Controlling electricity and water, for example, was a tactical way in which Hamas and the Isreali government tacitly worked together. Hamas would launch rockets and fire mortars at Israel, Israel would cut power, and then both sides would agree to a truce.

Israel and the world thought accommodating Hamas would eventually lead to some sort of accord similar to what was achieved with the IRA in the UK. Everyone knew Hamas was terrible, few thought they were ISIS level sociopaths.

[dunfree]

my wife told me last night that the median age in Gaza is 18. It's hard to imagine a scenario where the Palestinian children that make it through this don't end up in some sort of re-education.

definitely! And a functioning economy, unemployment is 25%. To get that they need to end the enforced poverty of terrorism though, where Hamas uses infrastructure to base terror, Israel destroys infrastructure, Palestine gets more dependent on age.

One of the rave victims described the terrorists as 16-17 year olds (I’ve heard Israelis say this before) which means many of those youth are probably already being trained