New Season, New Tires, New Thread

[skinipenem]

Front I feel like it bites into soft soil a tad better than Assegai due to taller knobs, but gives up a little bit on hardpack (due to increased surface area of the Assegai). There's no dead zone like a DHF. It has a pretty good locked in feeling when leaned over hard due to the beefy side knobs - plenty of feedback to let you know you're on them and they are holding.

The rear just feels grippy. Maybe it's more square than the DHR? Or maybe it's that the knob pattern is less horizontal stripey? DHR I feel like especially when it's a week or 2 old is very easy to slide laterally. The Rear doesn't hold longer than the front, it's just balanced with it. I can get it to slide if I unweight the rear wheel a hair and maybe feather the rear brake. DHR I feel like I can slide pretty easily just by feathering the brake in loose over hard conditions.

Thanks great info!

Are you able to compare the rear kyptototal to dhr ii?

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[skinipenem]

Quick rant: I’m demoing an Orbea Wild(amazing bike btw), a 160 travel emtb, it’s running 2.6 EXO+ casing DHF/DHRs, and they’re absolute dogshit. Run enough pressure for adequate support, and they’re ping ponging off everything and sliding out on corners im used to railing, but as soon as you drop the pressure enough for the tires to work well, you’re in the squirm and rim strike zone. And high volume tires with a no intermediate knobs suck balls. They’re slow to roll over onto the side knobs, and deathly loose until you get there.

Who the fuck thought tissue paper casing high volume tires were a good idea for a 50lb long travel ebike?

Current running assguy dhrii with cushcore front and back on a decoy. IMHO, and I could be way off base here:

Long travel ebikes are not as nimble as analog and take time to swing from one side to another. This might make a dhf suck.

The inserts dampen the heck out of the tires even at higher pressures like 25f/29r. Traction is ridiculous and drifting predictable. Very little deflection even at higher pressures; more of a thud sensation. I turn harder then ever with this setup.

I haven't ridden a dhf for a long time, although I did like them on my Enduro. I never liked the dhr.

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[skinipenem]

Euros love those clownshoe tires, but also think weight matters on a 50 lb ebike.

Related, but I was talking to the local suspension guy, and when I mentioned that when I rode my buddy's Levo with a 38 on it, I had to run the HSC fully closed, more pressure than the chart, and still bottomed it out easily. He laughed and said the ebike tune on it was "like water" and actually lighter than the stock tune because it's for "people who ride sitting down." WTF...

Something doesn't sound right there. However, my 38 is more supportive after a dsd tune and increased air pressure well above the recommended. Running 94.5 psi up front. 181# nekid. Not supple for small bumps unless up to speed.

I had made the mistake of setting sag without unweighting the bike, resulting in lower pressures. I figured this out just before shipping to diaz and during ski (not riding) season.

Long story short. Run the ebike at 27% sag measured when unweighted and add tokens. My 38 came with one token in the fork and zero spacers in the rear.

I would like to install a runt to hopefully improve small bump sensitivity while maintaining midstroke support, but diaz doesn't have any for the 38 right now.

Fwiw and only my opinion. I'm mostly just thinking out loud and still dialing in the tune.

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[Falcon3]

I had made the mistake of setting sag without unweighting the bike, resulting in lower pressures. I figured this out just before shipping to diaz and during ski (not riding) season.

Long story short. Run the ebike at 27% sag measured when unweighted and add tokens. My 38 came with one token in the fork and zero spacers in the rear.

I am very confused by what you mean "sag measured when unweighted". There will be 0 sag with no weight on the fork. You literally can't measure sag without weight on the bike.

Also, 27% front sag seems very low pressure (most manufacturers rec 15-20% ish), and most people don't recommend you even use sag as a metric on forks anymore bc it's so inconsistent. Most rec you start at the mfg pressure for your weight and fine tune from there until it feels like you want it to feel.

[XtrPickels]

I am very confused by what you mean "sag measured when unweighted". There will be 0 sag with no weight on the fork. You literally can't measure sag without weight on the bike.

Also, 27% front sag seems very low pressure (most manufacturers rec 15-20% ish), and most people don't recommend you even use sag as a metric on forks anymore bc it's so inconsistent. Most rec you start at the mfg pressure for your weight and fine tune from there until it feels like you want it to feel.

I think they're trying to say that "0" should be with the bike essentially off the ground because the weight of the e-bike causes it to sag under it's own weight.

So, if you measure "0" with the bike sitting under it's own weight, it's already sagged a few mm's. Therefore, when you measure sag under rider weight it's not accurate because you'd also need to add the bike's sag from it's own weight.

Not doing this means you'd end up with a suspension that's too soft because it's sagging more than you think.

[climberevan]

In the moto world we have "static sag", which is just the moto itself sitting on the tires. "Race sag" is with the rider. The difference between the two can help to dial in spring rate and preload.

Since e-bikes are indisputably mopeds, the above can apply to them as well.

[skinipenem]

I think they're trying to say that "0" should be with the bike essentially off the ground the weight of the e-bike causes it to sag under it's own weight.

So, if you measure "0" with the bike sitting under it's own weight, it's already sagged a few mm's. Therefore, when you measure sag under rider weight it's not accurate because you'd also need to add the bike's sag from it's own weight.

Not doing this means you'd end up with a suspension that's too soft because it's sagging more than you think.

Exactly.

@climberevan, yes race and static sag.

Agree, I don't set sag on the fork. I just match the firmness of the rear or a little more firm in the front. 27% sag on the fork wouldn't make sense.


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[Roxtar]

Also, 27% front sag seems very low pressure (most manufacturers rec 15-20% ish), and most people don't recommend you even use sag as a metric on forks anymore bc it's so inconsistent. Most rec you start at the mfg pressure for your weight and fine tune from there until it feels like you want it to feel.

Very little here I agree with.

First off...
Who are all these people who don't recommend using sag as a PSI guideline? at least as a starting point? What else do they use?
How else can you get the bike design, leverage ratio, and rider weight all into the equation? Much less the level of performance of the components (seal wear affecting stiction, bushing wear affecting smoothness, etc)
Sag is actually perfectly consistent. Consistent to the exact situation of all these parameters as they exist at this moment.

And then...
15-20%? Maybe with short travel XC bikes.

25-30% is still the common starting point on most mid-long travel bikes.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Very little here I agree with.

First off...
Who are all these people who don't recommend using sag as a PSI guideline? at least as a starting point? What else do they use?
How else can you get the bike design, leverage ratio, and rider weight all into the equation? Much less the level of performance of the components (seal wear affecting stiction, bushing wear affecting smoothness, etc)
Sag is actually perfectly consistent. Consistent to the exact situation of all these parameters as they exist at this moment.

And then...
15-20%? Maybe with short travel XC bikes.

25-30% is still the common starting point on most mid-long travel bikes.

I think you’re talking rear shock and Falcon is talking fork.

[Andeh]

^ this. Almost all bikes are designed around 30% shock sag & 20% fork sag. Why the difference? Weight distribution and head angle. But it works out that they end up being close to the same dynamic axle (vertical) sag when descending if you track using a data acquisition system.

[One (+) Sentence]

I have never assessed sag in a suspension fork when setting up demos or selling bikes at retail.

I set the rear shock based on desired sag and then set the fork up so it feels somewhat similar and balanced.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Anyone know a site with Kryptotal Enduro casings in stock?

[BigHerm]

Sie Germans got you covered.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Sie Germans got you covered.

$50 USD shipping though and probably will take forever. No one stateside that I have found has them.

[westoxified]

Anyone know a site with Kryptotal Enduro casings in stock?

yikes:

Kryptotal is the new Minion and Conti is not ready for it.

[BigHerm]

Shipping from Germany usually pretty quick IME. Buying in bulk spreads the pain.

Thundermountainbikes.com has rears, no fronts.

[Jtlange]

Level Nine has some rear Enduros in stock for a pretty good price. These have been holding up at the local wheel and tire killing ride (Apex)

https://www.levelninesports.com/product/continental-kryptotal-enduro-rear-mtb-tire-folding-tubeless-ready-clincher-soft-damaged-packaging

[skaredshtles]

<snip> These have been holding up at the local wheel and tire killing ride (Apex)

That's kind of the gold standard for weeding out shitty casings. That and Mt Lion up at GGCSP.

[adrenalated]

I see your Apex and Mt Lion and raise you a Cub Creek. I put a rock through the side of a Reynolds carbon rim on that trail.

[skaredshtles]

I see your Apex and Mt Lion and raise you a Cub Creek. I put a rock through the side of a Reynolds carbon rim on that trail.

Oooh - yeah. That one is a on a different level altogether of tire/wheel killing. I really should go up and ride Cub Creek soon.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

bike-discount.de

Bought a pair and even with the expensive DHL it was cheaper than buying two Maxxis stateside. Perfect timing as I wrecked my DHRII with a huge gash yesterday and heading out of town today for 5 days. Will hopefully have fresh tires waiting for me when I get back.

[One (+) Sentence]

bike-discount.de

Bought a pair and even with the expensive DHL it was cheaper than buying two Maxxis stateside. Perfect timing as I wrecked my DHRII with a huge gash yesterday and heading out of town today for 5 days. Will hopefully have fresh tires waiting for me when I get back.

I think you'll like them. They are noticeably faster rolling than an Assegai/DHR2 combo, which I suspect is partially why they are seeing so much success on the World Cup.

[Andeh]

The Argotal DH SS on the front is great in loose over hard. Loses grip for a sec in a flat corner, finds its way and hooks back up. I’m a huge Assegai fan, and the Arg is similarly awesome. Bet it’s going to be a great all rounder as things get wet in the PNW. Grip vs Support is juuuust right.

How's it do over roots? I assume that when you're on the side knobs, they don't feel super squirmy, given my experience with the Kryptotal. I'm happy with the Kryptotal for 3/4 of the year here since we've got a lot of hardpack, but was figuring the Argotal would make for a great winter tire. Looked kinda Shorty-ish to me.

Edit: so far my favorite winter tire is an Ultra Soft Magic Mary, but find the shoulder knobs squirm too much on hardpack when we get a dry spell.

[Andeh]

Major caveat: Its been so dry up here that, if memory serves, I haven't had em in anything resembling wet as of yet. That said, two buddies I trust put Argotals (front) on last winter and wouldn't shut up about them, to the point that I pulled an audible and followed their lead vice the initially planned Kryp Fr.
I ran Marys, Super Dh, Ultra Soft front and rear for a WBP season a few years ago, and really liked em, with the exception of the squirmy side knobs; they also tore off in a hurry. I'd put the Argotal side knobs closer to the Assegai camp in that regard for sure. There's just no suprises with em; loose over hard flat corners, to berms, to off camber roots, to rock gardens, just super predictable for me; point and shoot. I'm a fan of running one tire year round, so really looking forward to getting em out in the wet, as no doubt that'll be the real test. Will report back if we ever see rain again.

Nice. Yeah, they sound/look good for consistently loose conditions. We did have a couple rains after I thought that was over with and had the Kryptotals mounted up, and they did better at digging into mud & clearing than Assegais usually do, due to the taller/more open tread pattern. I would give Assegais an edge on wet roots though, probably because the casing is less stiff and the rubber is softer.

[grskier]

So, this is an interesting rundown of good front tires:
https://www.vitalmtb.com/whats-best-...al-mtb-roundup

Add Vee and Mazza to some things I'd like to try now.