Electric car thread

[skaredshtles]

<snip> I hope they start putting more manual transmissions in them.

[dunfree]

The 9k pound part is what gives me pause. That’s a lot of weight to control sideways on a windy downhill black ice road. It seems like heavy is currently the only option of current or future similar vehicles. With the high torque, it seems like smaller vehicles may be an option for hauling/pulling, if they can safely handle the weight for things like braking. Not sure how small we can go in the future.

1/3 of the weight is battery. With current tech if you want long range from an integrated battery with a pure EV, you pay a big weight penalt

[Garbowski]

The 9k pound part is what gives me pause. That’s a lot of weight to control sideways on a windy downhill black ice road. It seems like heavy is currently the only option of current or future similar vehicles. With the high torque, it seems like smaller vehicles may be an option for hauling/pulling, if they can safely handle the weight for things like braking. Not sure how small we can go in the future.

Yeah, the real problem for electric vehicles is the low energy density of the batteries vs. liquid fuels. Certainly one of those 'hopefully there is some amazing breakthrough' type situations. Fingers crossed.

[Ted Striker]

Ha! But to be fair, Lexus is developing a simulated manual for EVs.

[skaredshtles]

Ha! But to be fair, Lexus is developing a simulated manual for EVs.

Well, now, that's just fuckin' STOOPID.

Oh, wait. Lexus. Never mind. Carry on.

[Ted Striker]

Yeah, I agree. Same goes for the fake engine/star trek noises. And the 0-60 wars. And the electric hummer.

Extremely doubtful it'll ever make it to a production car.

[nickwm21]

We'll see, the bz4x hasn't exactly impressed.

Toyota is good at a lot of things. Impressing the auto media is not one of them…..


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[gravitylover]

I have high hopes. I'm a big rotary fan to begin with though, so I'm biased. A hybrid is the perfect application for a rotary. Constant speeds at high revs are where they shine. With such a fast spinning single rotor, it should be able to turn the generator quickly and effortlessly. Probably smooth and quiet too.

And if it's mounted horizontally it could also act like a gyroscopic stabilizer.

[Ted Striker]

A little trivia on Wankel/Mazda engine RPM...

The tach on a conventional car shows the speed of the crank, whereas the tach on a rotary shows the speed of the eccentric shaft, which spins 3x as fast as the rotors. So when the tach reads 7800 rpm, the rotors are turning at 2600 rpm. And even though it's named the eccentric shaft, it's actually straighter than a conventional crankshaft.

[schuss]

Toyota is good at a lot of things. Impressing the auto media is not one of them…..


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And there the whole "wheels falling off" thing.

[WMD]

Toyota has not just moved on from the anti EV CEO, they now embrace EVs and plan to produce 1 million a year globally by 2026.

https://www.thestreet.com/electric-v...hicle-strategy

[bodywhomper]

this has probably already been discussed. apologies if that's the case.

how do current e-cars manage torque and engine breaking in low friction road surface, ie ice?

my current 4d or awd vehicles have pretty old tech for traction. no computer driven electronic traction control. the paved road that enters my neighborhood is very steep, windy, high crown, and/or has weirdly banked turns. when icy and/or snowy, getting into (downhill) or leaving (uphill) my neighborhood is challenging to many. before the current winter storm arrived this morning, the road was mostly covered in black ice. when the storm came, snow as deposited on the ice. my little awd matrix runs winter studdless tires and my land cruiser has studded tires. i've been able to successfully enter and leave my neighborhood is both cars when the roads are very slick and many peole cannot. The matrix is not heavy and not too torque-y. for me, going up is all about throttle control. I creep it down the hill when it's super slick in L gear, avoiding using my brakes as much as possible. The land cruiser sometimes needs to start in 2nd gear when climbing up the hill from a stop to get traction and not spin too much from torque in 1st gear, and i sometimes use 4lo to creep down the hill w/o using brakes. I feel like i have seen cars with electronic traction control struggle in my neighborhood and not get up the hill or pinball down the hill, but maybe that's all because of poor tires....

[PB]

Very good question.

Check that ..... absolutely critical question. I tend to give Teslas a wide birth under marginal conditions as they generally are coming from the lowlands with inexperienced operators ..... maybe I'm being unfair?


Naw.

[adrenalated]

this has probably already been discussed. apologies if that's the case.

how do current e-cars manage torque and engine breaking in low friction road surface, ie ice?

my current 4d or awd vehicles have pretty old tech for traction. no computer driven electronic traction control. the paved road that enters my neighborhood is very steep, windy, high crown, and/or has weirdly banked turns. when icy and/or snowy, getting into (downhill) or leaving (uphill) my neighborhood is challenging to many. before the current winter storm arrived this morning, the road was mostly covered in black ice. when the storm came, snow as deposited on the ice. my little awd matrix runs winter studdless tires and my land cruiser has studded tires. i've been able to successfully enter and leave my neighborhood is both cars when the roads are very slick and many peole cannot. The matrix is not heavy and not too torque-y. for me, going up is all about throttle control. I creep it down the hill when it's super slick in L gear, avoiding using my brakes as much as possible. The land cruiser sometimes needs to start in 2nd gear when climbing up the hill from a stop to get traction and not spin too much from torque in 1st gear, and i sometimes use 4lo to creep down the hill w/o using brakes. I feel like i have seen cars with electronic traction control struggle in my neighborhood and not get up the hill or pinball down the hill, but maybe that's all because of poor tires....

So, more than anything I'd say that EVs behave.... differently. In some ways better, in some ways worse.

First remember that EVs are heavy and the weight is in a really good location for traction - low and centered. So they tend to inherently do better in snow than a similarly sized ICE vehicle with the same tires.

Engine braking - there are no gears, so it's not going to operate the same way. Regen braking provide a similar function, but you're going to do it by modulating the throttle, not by forcing the engine to stay in a low gear. Personally I had trouble adjusting to this as I have some very hardwired instincts to controlling traction that come from racing, but a similar effect to engine braking can definitely be achieved with practice.

As for torque management going uphill, this is really going to be a function of how the manufacturer has set up their traction control systems and what modes they offer. EVs inherently have a lot of torque, but as I mentioned earlier, they also are heavy with excellent weight distribution. Personally I found that my Bolt was overall more capable in the snow than the Hyundai Accent it replaced - both similarly sized cars, both FWD, and both running the exact same snow tire. But I didn't use either of those cars to go up a lot of steep snowy hills.

[altacoup]

this has probably already been discussed. apologies if that's the case.

how do current e-cars manage torque and engine breaking in low friction road surface, ie ice?

my current 4d or awd vehicles have pretty old tech for traction. no computer driven electronic traction control. the paved road that enters my neighborhood is very steep, windy, high crown, and/or has weirdly banked turns. when icy and/or snowy, getting into (downhill) or leaving (uphill) my neighborhood is challenging to many. before the current winter storm arrived this morning, the road was mostly covered in black ice. when the storm came, snow as deposited on the ice. my little awd matrix runs winter studdless tires and my land cruiser has studded tires. i've been able to successfully enter and leave my neighborhood is both cars when the roads are very slick and many peole cannot. The matrix is not heavy and not too torque-y. for me, going up is all about throttle control. I creep it down the hill when it's super slick in L gear, avoiding using my brakes as much as possible. The land cruiser sometimes needs to start in 2nd gear when climbing up the hill from a stop to get traction and not spin too much from torque in 1st gear, and i sometimes use 4lo to creep down the hill w/o using brakes. I feel like i have seen cars with electronic traction control struggle in my neighborhood and not get up the hill or pinball down the hill, but maybe that's all because of poor tires....

I got rear ended today by a Tesla in lcc that couldn’t make it up the hill, watched the knucklehead spin his tires for like 5 minutes. He then managed to spin the car around to go down, with multiple people yelling at him that he needed to stay put until he got assistance. Then he proceeded to free slide downhill into the 4runner behind me which he pushed into me (I’m assuming the weight of the car contributed to the downhill slide). I looked at his tires, looked like the stock set up. My truck was having zero issues with wrangler ultra terrains. My guess is that EVs need really good tires on slick roads due to weight. That sedan probably weighs as much as my quad cab. I’m 100% pro EV, when I bought my truck 3 years ago I said it would probably be the last ICE vehicle I’ll ever buy. But the weight of an EV is certainly a factor in how they drive. I’ve seen other teslas do just fine. Have yet to see a f150 lightning in the snow. Can’t imagine the cyber truck will do good as it needs a ramp to drive over a curb. I’ll be curious to see how Subaru and Audi make their EVs for downhill snow performance

[muted reborn]

EVs aren't dramatically worse than regular cars in snow, just like gas cars each one is a bit different. I will say the nanny features in my Tesla have been very annoying in the snow if you want to go fast, but it also has straightened my car going sideways down BCC in a millisecond which was jaw dropping. It also handled a 45mph very unintentional slushy drift last week pretty well. But I wouldn't want to go down or up a super steep icey road in any car without a manual or low gear.

Also some teslas are RWD with big 19" rims that don't allow room for chunky snow tires - avoid tailgating those guys.

[dcpnz]

I think Tesla (and presumably most other AWD EV’s) are actually very good in snow and ice largely because of the electric nanny features.
Caveat being that stock tires would be downright scary. We run Michelin x-ice on ours in winter.
Only issue I’ve had in it is the standard regen breaking can be a bit harsh and break traction if you’re not paying attention - turn down regen setting or modulate with accelerator and no biggie.

[bodywhomper]

Thanks for responses.

Altacoup, sry about your experience today. I have several friends that experienced similar today.

Interesting about regen braking in EV’s. The descent into my neighborhood, when icey, you want to avoid using brakes if possible. I hope manufacturers figure this out.

[adrenalated]

Thanks for responses.

Altacoup, sry about your experience today. I have several friends that experienced similar today.

Interesting about regen braking in EV’s. The descent into my neighborhood, when icey, you want to avoid using brakes if possible. I hope manufacturers figure this out.

Regen braking isn't engaging the brakes. It's engine braking (using resistance of the motor). It's just controlled in a different way than in an ICE.

[jpcm]

So, more than anything I'd say that EVs behave.... differently. In some ways better, in some ways worse.

First remember that EVs are heavy and the weight is in a really good location for traction - low and centered. So they tend to inherently do better in snow than a similarly sized ICE vehicle with the same tires.

Engine braking - there are no gears, so it's not going to operate the same way. Regen braking provide a similar function, but you're going to do it by modulating the throttle, not by forcing the engine to stay in a low gear. Personally I had trouble adjusting to this as I have some very hardwired instincts to controlling traction that come from racing, but a similar effect to engine braking can definitely be achieved with practice.

As for torque management going uphill, this is really going to be a function of how the manufacturer has set up their traction control systems and what modes they offer. EVs inherently have a lot of torque, but as I mentioned earlier, they also are heavy with excellent weight distribution. Personally I found that my Bolt was overall more capable in the snow than the Hyundai Accent it replaced - both similarly sized cars, both FWD, and both running the exact same snow tire. But I didn't use either of those cars to go up a lot of steep snowy hills.

in regards to the tesla Y, i think the statement that it "behaves differently " is quite accurate.

For reference, we live in front range CO foothills, use ours as a commuter car (mainly my wife) about 600 miles per week mostly up and down the I25 corridor. We also need to get up a steep north facing dirt road hill to get into our neighborhood. We pretty much only charge it at home. we've had it about a year and overall have been pretty stoked with the vehicle. It absolutely makes the driving experience easier. The autopilot (not fsd) is game changing for a long daily commutes. The tax free car/mileage reimbursement from my wife's job covers the car payment and it costs 60-90$ per month to charge at home. Our other car is a Ram 1500, so for us this was a good fit.

In regards to winter driving, there is a steep learning curve, but once you get used to it it preforms pretty well in the snow. Snow tires are a must, it could barely get up our hill without them. We are running the michelin X snow ice. Traction while accelerating in snow is quite good. the heavy/low center of gravity really makes it hug the road. Running it in "comfort mode" will reduce acceleration rate and would for be helpful if your not running snow tires. We haven't found the need to really do that. The regenerative breaking does cause a momentary feeling of loss of control on slick roads before the traction control takes over and corrects it. This is especially so when you come off the accelerator quickly. Over time you get a feel for it and can moderate the accelerator to reduce and eliminate this feeling. One of the more recent updates created a tune for "snow tires" that seems to have improved this issue as well. There is also a "off road assist" mode that will provide more gradual torque. We haven't messed with this yet, but it may be helpful getting out of a deep unplowed parking lot. Overall, Id say winter performance is on par with her previous 2013 Acura Rdx running all season winter rated tires.

The cold weather loss of range is REAL. We've had two cold snaps with sustained below 0 temps this winter and the drain this causes is significant. Negative 10 degrees and you get at least 25% less range then the car says you have. With temps above 10 degrees the loss of range is much less noticeable. This car hates the super cold. This would give me serious range anxiety if we were driving the thing up and around the mountains regularly, but thats not what we use it for. It is awesome to rally up the Poudre canyon to ski Cameron Pass....can easily shave 20min off my time each way and it costs like 4$ round trip. Its so fucking fast!!

[bodywhomper]

Regen braking isn't engaging the brakes. It's engine braking (using resistance of the motor). It's just controlled in a different way than in an ICE.

Thanks for clarifying! All pretty interesting.

[dcpnz]

The cold weather loss of range is REAL.

Yes, yes it is.

We are noticing this a lot more this year than in past. Not sure if battery degrading or if algorithms have changed or if we are having an unusually cold snap or if just paying more attention this year.

Especially noticing it if parking outside overnight with modest charge and finding 2/3 rds the next morning.
But also on rare occasion I took it for a lengthy road trip I needed a lot more projected range to get home than car was indicating - would have been moderately f#@ked if I left supercharger when car told me I could.

[nickwm21]

EVsBut I wouldn't want to go down or up a super steep icey road in any car without a manual or low gear.

This would be my only concern. The steep driveway problem…

I assume they could just program a “downhill crawl” mode into these EVs that just simulates a 1st or 2nd gear slow descent.


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[bodywhomper]

This would be my only concern. The steep driveway problem…

I assume they could just program a “downhill crawl” mode into these EVs that just simulates a 1st or 2nd gear slow descent.


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I would think so too, which is why I was asking if it that tech (or programming) existed yet. With the weight of EV’s, I’d think they’d want an extra low “gear” setting like what vanagon synrco’s used to have or like a 4lo gearing.

[garyfromterrace]

This would be my only concern. The steep driveway problem…

I assume they could just program a “downhill crawl” mode into these EVs that just simulates a 1st or 2nd gear slow descent.


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While I'm a long way off seriously considering an EV due to the fact I'm a 1.5 vehicle family (3/4 ton truck req'd for camper and street bike), and where I live (northern coast range), the above is a show stopper. Jesus, not being able to go into some sort of low gear on a steep, glare ice hill would be suicide up here. Even with studs all round, which I've had on every winter vehicle I've driven for 30 years.