WOOT WOOT! Nukin' in Missoula

[yeahman]

Power outages aside, seems like a big part of their issue is parking. The mountain is big enough now to spread out a lot of skiers, but the parking lot needs to be twice as big. The only feasible solution appears to be to extend the existing main lot farther south onto Forest Service land. It would require some earth moving for sure, but it's not like that plot of land is really needed for any other purpose. Maybe it's too steep and would create erosion problems.

[Rasputin]

Snowbowl is at least partially on the Lolo NF operating under a special use permit right?

So, it’s a little more complicated than “dude runs it how he wants to”.

If people don’t like it there is a Supervisors Office managing the permit that has a mailbox.

Sure, and many people over the years have made their comments and complaints. Snowbowl will make adjustments to comply with FS requirements, and this is how they gained permits for the expansion (which took almost twenty years and adjustments many revisions to the requirements from the FS). I'm sure many of these comments are viewed by the FS as petty axes to grind, skiers are often very entitled sorts, especially the ones that feel the need to complain to the FS. The Morrises have be operating there since the '80s, so yes, they just keep operating it as they see fit, as long as it is within the requirements of the special use permit.

[oldnew_guy]

Their publicly available master plan says they are going to invest in the skier experience including information services as they recognize expansion will increase visitation.

[stuckathuntermtn]

Hahahahaha

[RoooR]

Power outages aside, seems like a big part of their issue is parking. The mountain is big enough now to spread out a lot of skiers, but the parking lot needs to be twice as big. The only feasible solution appears to be to extend the existing main lot farther south onto Forest Service land. It would require some earth moving for sure, but it's not like that plot of land is really needed for any other purpose. Maybe it's too steep and would create erosion problems.

Adding shuttles and incentiving their and carpool use could really help the parking situation.

[Rasputin]

Their publicly available master plan says they are going to invest in the skier experience including information services as they recognize expansion will increase visitation.

Well, that could mean many things, including that they have added a Facebook page since that plan was made........ It could also mean creating more beginner and intermediate terrain. It likely does include the proposed additional buildings at the base, the additional locker room in SB lodge, and the many areas of the old boundaries which have been made more available to skiers by cutting runs, clearing dead fall, snags etc.

Some of the complaints here have merit, and I understand being pissed at their seeming indifference to public opinion, especially in this age of pampered consumerism, where the perpetually discontented can yelp on the interweb about how outrageously bereft of virtue the owners and managers are. However, cancel culture won't likely unseat the Morrises, so if you want to effect change, perhaps, ride the lift with Brad, and have a friendly conversation with him about your preferences and concerns.

As for me, my preferences may be different than others, I don't agree that trying to accommodate more skiers there enhances the quality of experience for anybody, so nothing said here has been persuasive in changing my mind. The more skiers that go elsewhere, the more I like it.

[yeahman]

Adding shuttles and incentiving their and carpool use could really help the parking situation.

But how much parking is available for shuttle people down in Missoula? Are we just talking about people parking in Snowbowl's lot on Grant Creek Road? Not too much space there, though I guess it could make a difference if they ran more shuttles.

Obvious solution is to start charging for parking based on how many occupants. Three or four per car is free. Two people $20. Solo drivers $30. Something like that to discourage people driving up alone on a Saturday. But paid parking sucks.

[toast2266]

Snowbowl is at least partially on the Lolo NF operating under a special use permit right?

So, it’s a little more complicated than “dude runs it how he wants to”.

If people don’t like it there is a Supervisors Office managing the permit that has a mailbox.

Expecting the missoula regional office of the forest service office to do more than the bare minimum for recreation is likely to be about as successful as expecting snowbowl to be run competently.

[oldnew_guy]

Well, that could mean many things, including that they have added a Facebook page since that plan was made........ It could also mean creating more beginner and intermediate terrain. It likely does include the proposed additional buildings at the base, the additional locker room in SB lodge, and the many areas of the old boundaries which have been made more available to skiers by cutting runs, clearing dead fall, snags etc.

Some of the complaints here have merit, and I understand being pissed at their seeming indifference to public opinion, especially in this age of pampered consumerism, where the perpetually discontented can yelp on the interweb about how outrageously bereft of virtue the owners and managers are. However, cancel culture won't likely unseat the Morrises, so if you want to effect change, perhaps, ride the lift with Brad, and have a friendly conversation with him about your preferences and concerns.

As for me, my preferences may be different than others, I don't agree that trying to accommodate more skiers there enhances the quality of experience for anybody, so nothing said here has been persuasive in changing my mind. The more skiers that go elsewhere, the more I like it.

For sure on the encouraging more use, but my local hill posts when the parking lot is full and what lifts are running and it certainly helps.

This just reminds me of some of Busters points regarding Crystal last year.

[S_jenks]

Well, that could mean many things, including that they have added a Facebook page since that plan was made........ It could also mean creating more beginner and intermediate terrain. It likely does include the proposed additional buildings at the base, the additional locker room in SB lodge, and the many areas of the old boundaries which have been made more available to skiers by cutting runs, clearing dead fall, snags etc.

Some of the complaints here have merit, and I understand being pissed at their seeming indifference to public opinion, especially in this age of pampered consumerism, where the perpetually discontented can yelp on the interweb about how outrageously bereft of virtue the owners and managers are. However, cancel culture won't likely unseat the Morrises, so if you want to effect change, perhaps, ride the lift with Brad, and have a friendly conversation with him about your preferences and concerns.

As for me, my preferences may be different than others, I don't agree that trying to accommodate more skiers there enhances the quality of experience for anybody, so nothing said here has been persuasive in changing my mind. The more skiers that go elsewhere, the more I like it.

In your opinion- do you think Pat is going to be able to leave the bowl in state that can survive AFTER he’s gone?

I’m fine with how the bowl is run now (though the idea of penalizing solo drivers on big days with paid parking would actually be an idea people could get behind). But my worry is the long term. Pat is an old fuck, and he’ll need to bow out eventually. Is there a plan? An idea of what will happen next?

Snowbowl is a community treasure, and there needs to be someone to take over after Pat is gone. Showdown and Great Divide have shown that it’s possible to transition to new owner without selling out, but one bad owner and everything could be fucked to hell in no time.

And you know that big money companies like Vail, Boyne, etc could swoop in with the $$$ if they want. Then what?

[Norseman]

Some info to sift through if you're bored.

List of who owns what: https://www.nsaa.org/NSAA/Media/Who_...n_Resorts.aspx

U.S. ski areas in operation: https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Publi..._thru_2022.pdf

Skier visits by year: https://nsaa.org/webdocs/Media_Publi..._1979_2022.pdf

Huh. A few surprises in there for me. Like how Sinclair Oil Corporation owns Sun Valley and Snowbasin. And the City of Denver owns Winter Park.

[Rasputin]

In your opinion- do you think Pat is going to be able to leave the bowl in state that can survive AFTER he’s gone?

I’m fine with how the bowl is run now (though the idea of penalizing solo drivers on big days with paid parking would actually be an idea people could get behind). But my worry is the long term. Pat is an old fuck, and he’ll need to bow out eventually. Is there a plan? An idea of what will happen next?

Snowbowl is a community treasure, and there needs to be someone to take over after Pat is gone. Showdown and Great Divide have shown that it’s possible to transition to new owner without selling out, but one bad owner and everything could be fucked to hell in no time.

And you know that big money companies like Vail, Boyne, etc could swoop in with the $$$ if they want. Then what?

They've been looking for a replacement for Pat for years, and "they" includes Pat. He had one guy a decade or so ago who Pat was grooming for the job, he died of a massive heart attack up by the diesel pumps. There was another guy who was really into the idea of learning everything about the job, and Pat seemed to like him for it, but they had a major falling out and he quit. Most recently, Curtis (not the bartender) a former liftie, had switched to maintenance. Curtis is a very smart guy, and seemed to be looking to move up, but I haven't seen him this year, and don't know if he's still around.

Pat told me he was ready to pass it off several years back, and that they have attempted to recruit from outside the Bowl, to no avail. My guess is that the Morrises aren't willing to pay enough to draw talent who could do the job.

I don't think Brad is planning to sell just yet, he loves the place, and I think he wants to complete his master development plan (they still have another chairlift in their possession, to go from Spartan saddle to the top of Griz) . The owners of The Trailhead made an offer on the place a while back which was declined. I've never heard anything about any other actual offers. If I was a local activist type, I might seek to develop political support for the city to buy them out when they are ready to sell.

[406]

I'm guessing they will wait to sell to a big corp for max money.... Altara is starting to snatch up smaller areas and with captive population and private base land ownership and along road, they will get big money. Hopefully I'm wrong, fine with me if it stays as is.

[Harry]

Snowbowl is at least partially on the Lolo NF operating under a special use permit right?

So, it’s a little more complicated than “dude runs it how he wants to”.

If people don’t like it there is a Supervisors Office managing the permit that has a mailbox.

Snowbowl management has a history of cancelling season passes of anyone who complains about them to the Forest Service. If my memory serves, the season pass cancellations went to court and Snowbowl won. Court ruled Snowbowl has to issue a day pass to anyone who shows up with money. But season passes were ruled to be solely at the discretion of management. So go ahead and complain, see where it gets you.

Plenty of details in this thread years ago.


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[RootSkier]

Snowbowl management has a history of cancelling season passes of anyone who complains about them to the Forest Service. I

My recollection and understanding is that they banned one dude, and that dude regularly posted (basically incoherently) in this thread, and still does on occasion...and that he was soon thereafter un-banned. If there are others, I'd be very interested to know who and why.

Also, complaining to the Forest Service is 100% a bitch-ass move and if I was Ronnie I'd probably ban those people too.

This thread is now on year 15 and I am basically now fully on team Rasputin as far as the Snowbowl operations hot takes go.

[stuckathuntermtn]

The FS actually does stay on them about safety regarding lifts and facilities.

[Rasputin]

My recollection and understanding is that they banned one dude, and that dude regularly posted (basically incoherently) in this thread, and still does on occasion...and that he was soon thereafter un-banned. If there are others, I'd be very interested to know who and why.

Also, complaining to the Forest Service is 100% a bitch-ass move and if I was Ronnie I'd probably ban those people too.

This thread is now on year 15 and I am basically now fully on team Rasputin as far as the Snowbowl operations hot takes go.

One year Mark, after humbly talking to Ronnie about his thoughts on groomers pushing snow down Patrol Chute (which would harden into dangerous clods) and other safety concerns, decided it worthy to write a concise letter to the FS on his concerns. I had rode the lift with Mark, before he wrote to the FS, and he'd tried to talk me into doing the same, regarding the Patrol Chute thing (I didn't and don't like it that they push big clods of snow down it), my answer to him was that it was not a hill I wanted to die on.

That same year, Jim, older brother to the "Mayoress", ate shit trying to bomb down an ungroomed Outrun. Jim blustered to either Ronnie or Brad, and certainly Pat (who was digging in his heels against grooming it since everyone was making noise about it), that it needed to be groomed or it was a safety hazard. He then not only contacted the Forest Service to get SB to comply, but also contacted their insurance carrier to warn them of the dangerous lack of concern for safety.

Both Mark and Jim were not allowed to purchase a pass the next year. Mark went and talked to Ronnie, apologized, and was allowed to buy a pass; Jim decided to take them to court, he missed the first half of the season.

There is one other person I know of who was banned from Snowbowl, for taking Pat's snowmobile on a joyride. This guy was well known for profoundly drunken antics, including the frequent dropping of his pants, but this one got him banned. Years later he returned, apologized to Ronnie (I was told), and was allowed to return. Then he managed to get re-banned for a while, before returning from being banned a second time.

[Rasputin]

The FS actually does stay on them about safety regarding lifts and facilities.

All ski lifts are required to be load tested every year. There are other things they are required to do, like remove any dirt from contact with the bases of lift poles, as it accelerates corrosion. Every fall, maintenance goes up in every tower, they inspect and lube every wheel, and replace any wheels, or the pins and brackets holding them, that are corroded or worn. They take every chair off the haul cable, and re-splice the haul cable, shortening it if needed (one year Pat told me they took 21 feet out of the Griz cable). It's standard yearly maintenance, and from what I saw in the shop when I used to work-trade, Pat was very organized, and systematic in his approach, which isn't surprising, as he's been doing it for decades.

That stuff is routine, the things they don't do repeatedly is when outcomes are more likely to make interesting gossip.

[Buzzworthy]

Huh. A few surprises in there for me. Like how Sinclair Oil Corporation owns Sun Valley and Snowbasin.

It’s a pretty well known fact around here. The also have a very well positioned Sinclair gas station on the way from SLC to Snowbasin that is busy every time I drive by.

[RoooR]

But how much parking is available for shuttle people down in Missoula? Are we just talking about people parking in Snowbowl's lot on Grant Creek Road? Not too much space there, though I guess it could make a difference if they ran more shuttles.

Obvious solution is to start charging for parking based on how many occupants. Three or four per car is free. Two people $20. Solo drivers $30. Something like that to discourage people driving up alone on a Saturday. But paid parking sucks.

Agree occupant based parking would help a ton. Could even add, drive up with a full van. Everybody gets $1 off on their first beer.

[racesla]

I don't personally get bummed about it because I don't personally have to deal with it anymore. But I have a lot of friends in missoula that have to deal with it, and they're certainly bummed. Like a friend talking about her women's ski clinic, with 300 women that rolled up to the hill this weekend only to find the mountain was closed because the power was out. Because Brad didn't see fit to tell anyone. Or another friend that parked the better part of a mile up the road on the powder day, only to find that no lifts were spinning because of wind.

And then when people bitch about it on snowbowl's Facebook page, Brad deletes their comments and bans them. You can defend them till you're blue in the face, but there's no getting around the fact that snowbowl is a terribly, terribly run business.

Brad doesn't need to be good at communication. He just needs to realize that he's utterly useless in that department and hire somebody to do it for him.

Yeppers.

[stuckathuntermtn]

x1,000

No idea how that guy had a career in medicine.

[toastybroski]

In your opinion- do you think Pat is going to be able to leave the bowl in state that can survive AFTER he’s gone?

I’m fine with how the bowl is run now (though the idea of penalizing solo drivers on big days with paid parking would actually be an idea people could get behind). But my worry is the long term. Pat is an old fuck, and he’ll need to bow out eventually. Is there a plan? An idea of what will happen next?

Snowbowl is a community treasure, and there needs to be someone to take over after Pat is gone. Showdown and Great Divide have shown that it’s possible to transition to new owner without selling out, but one bad owner and everything could be fucked to hell in no time.

And you know that big money companies like Vail, Boyne, etc could swoop in with the $$$ if they want. Then what?

Idk man, beer costs a dollar more at GD now…

[2Harsh]

A quick recap here from 2012 when SB banned a longtime pass holder for contacting the FS about the lack of run out grooming:

"Jim Sylvester holds some of his 31 years' worth of Montana Snowbowl season passes, which he says the ski area refuses to sell him this year because he complained about what he says was an unsafe skiing condition last winter. The ski area says it's within its rights to deny him, and the Lolo National Forest is looking into Sylvester's claims of discrimination.

Sylvester, a longtime Snowbowl skier and former president of the Missoula Ski Education Foundation, complained to Snowbowl a year ago about the safety of the out run funneling skiers from the east side of the resort to the base. The cat track drains skiers and snowboarders from the East and West bowls, along with the West Ridge and other runs.

Sylvester wrote comments and placed them in the suggestion box at the ski area. Snowbowl owner Brad Morris said he was never approached by Sylvester about the safety of the ski area.

When the conditions of the run didn't change, Sylvester called the Lolo Forest District office to find out Snowbowl's insurance carrier to warn them of what he deemed unsafe skiing conditions. No one at the Forest Service returned Sylvester's phone call, but he didn't think much more about it as the out run was groomed a short time later."


Read more: http://missoulian.com/news/local/ski...#ixzz1iSvj9y2z

[Rasputin]

The above gives Jim's version of events, which omits his real motivation, that he had a hard fall while skiing at a speed unsafe for the conditions on a black-diamond rated run. I was on the scene shortly afterward, as Jim was cleaning up his yard sale. As is often the case with people who get hurt, rather than taking responsibility for his own actions, he chose to blame the lack of grooming (I did not crash, skiing down the same run behind him, the conditions were not conducive to bombing the Out Run).

Jim also believes the road cuts need to be removed from Grandstand, beneath the LaVelle lift. When I explained to him that those road cuts are there because there is a NFS road that goes up to the Point Six Weather monitoring station, and also is used extensively for lift maintenance, he moved on to complaining about the road cut that is part of the access road to the A-frame and the top of the Grizzly lift. He insisted that it wasn't necessary, because workers didn't need to be able to drive up there, they could just walk up from where Point Six road came nearest to the top of Griz. This is typical of Jim's shortsightedness, as he often has lunch in the A-frame cabin during the season, but has never considered how the firewood, which fuels the woodstove he stands by during lunch, gets into the A-frame. He also apparently didn't understand that the road was needful for the diesel truck, that fills the tanks near the A-frame, and is where the groomers get their fuel when they are on top of the mountain.