Lange World Cup RS140 aka ZR

[auvgeek]

Anyone have details on the new Lange ZR with that 95 mm last?

Is it as stiff as a Lange ZB?

Is it as punchable/grindable as a true plug?

[adrenalated]

Call up Sam at Boot Doctors in Telluride Mountain Village and ask her. She is familiar with these boots.

I had the RS 120 on my foot last week and I can't compare to the "real" race boots like the ZB - but the RS120 is both stiffer and has thicker plastic than all the "130" flex recreational boots they had on the floor.

[TAFKALVS]

Anyone know the BSL on these? I'd love to get in to a low volume boot with a 310 - 312mm BSL. I've for years felt I'm between a 27.5 and 26.5 in most brands. A 26.5 is too short and causes toe bang/having to crunch toes like I'm in rock shoes, even with punching and grinding. A 27.5 I'm pretty much swimming in.

[Pinned]

Anyone know the BSL on these? I'd love to get in to a low volume boot with a 310 - 312mm BSL. I've for years felt I'm between a 27.5 and 26.5 in most brands. A 26.5 is too short and causes toe bang/having to crunch toes like I'm in rock shoes, even with punching and grinding. A 27.5 I'm pretty much swimming in.

I think Head's boots seem to run a little bit shorter than Lange / Tecnica. The BSLs on the Raptor are 2-3mm shorter than most for a given size. I haven't skied them but was curious and did try some on.

[onenerdykid]

Anyone know the BSL on these? I'd love to get in to a low volume boot with a 310 - 312mm BSL. I've for years felt I'm between a 27.5 and 26.5 in most brands. A 26.5 is too short and causes toe bang/having to crunch toes like I'm in rock shoes, even with punching and grinding. A 27.5 I'm pretty much swimming in.

Just a reminder - a boot's BSL is not a direct indicator of its last length. The 2022 Hawx Ultra has a BSL of 300mm in size 26.5 and has a 2mm longer last than the 2021 Hawx Magna's 309mm BSL.

But I used to feel the same way about my feet too. But these boot have so much plastic that a competent boot fitter can turn a 26.5 shell into a "27.0" with a toe punch and (in your case) a liner mod. You just need the right toe form to do it and a little creativity on the part of the boot fitter to mod the liner's strobel sole.

[cpj.slc]

I ordered the ZB and my shop said Lange cancelled the order, but the could get me the ZR. You are correct it is a 95MM last instead of the 92MM. It still has enough plastic for significant grinding. The boot is still a plug boot, they just widened the last. I was told the flex is the same 140 as the ZB. It might end up being a great option for more of an "out of the box" fit.

Having said that, I ended up just ordering the ZB online. If you do end up with the ZR I would be curious to hear how it works. Maybe I order that one in a few years with my ZB's are dead.

[TAFKALVS]

Just a reminder - a boot's BSL is not a direct indicator of its last length. The 2022 Hawx Ultra has a BSL of 300mm in size 26.5 and has a 2mm longer last than the 2021 Hawx Magna's 309mm BSL.

But I used to feel the same way about my feet too. But these boot have so much plastic that a competent boot fitter can turn a 26.5 shell into a "27.0" with a toe punch and (in your case) a liner mod. You just need the right toe form to do it and a little creativity on the part of the boot fitter to mod the liner's strobel sole.

Are there any resources that you know of showing internal last length? It sure would be nice if boot manufacturers provided more information beyond "26.5, 98mm last, 306 BSL".

[J. Barron DeJong]

Are there any resources that you know of showing internal last length? It sure would be nice if boot manufacturers provided more information beyond "26.5, 98mm last, 306 BSL".

Isn’t the 26.5 supposed to be that internal length?

[jummo]

I'm not going to say your shop is misleading you, but these boots are not coming anytime soon.
At a minimum, they are not on boats yet. That would put them at least six weeks out and they do not show that status yet.
It should be a winner when it finally comes, but the numbers do not justify pushing its production ahead of boots that sell in bigger numbers at a higher margin.
All the brands are struggling to build what they sold preseason and niche products have moved to the back of the list.

[mr_pretzel]

I'm not going to say your shop is misleading you, but these boots are not coming anytime soon.
At a minimum, they are not on boats yet. That would put them at least six weeks out and they do not show that status yet.
It should be a winner when it finally comes, but the numbers do not justify pushing its production ahead of boots that sell in bigger numbers at a higher margin.
All the brands are struggling to build what they sold preseason and niche products have moved to the back of the list.

Bummer! I’m going to try to get my hands on a pair for sure. Thanks for the update jummo.

[TAFKALVS]

Isn’t the 26.5 supposed to be that internal length?

No, onnerdykid (who works for Atomic if I recall) clearly states that two Atomic boots in the same size (26.5) have different internal lengths, with the shorter BSL boot having a longer internal length than the boot with a longer external BSL. So for someone like me on the size break, especially with relatively low volume feet, it makes fit really tricky.

Yes of course, see your bootfitter and all that, but I also feel like most bootfitters are willing to make a boot work even if there's perhaps another boot that would fit better with less work out of the box and ultimately will require less aggressive punching/grinding but it's just as much a struggle for them to know the true internal dimensions. Most boots that have worked for me I physically couldn't get my foot into (at least comfortably) without boot work.

In a perfect world, there would be a tool that could match a 3D scan of your foot with a 3D model of the interior dimensions of all available boots in the category you're shopping for, and you/your fitter could pick the boot that matched the closest, and then have them take it from there.

[onenerdykid]

Isn’t the 26.5 supposed to be that internal length?

mondopoint (MP) = centimeter length of the foot, so a 26MP boot is made for a 26cm foot. If the last length were the MP, then there would be no room for a liner.

Are there any resources that you know of showing internal last length? It sure would be nice if boot manufacturers provided more information beyond "26.5, 98mm last, 306 BSL".

Not really, and I think providing more info here ends up adding to the confusion rather than providing more clarity. IMO, I wouldn't give it out and there are a few reasons why. First, there's no standardized thickness for a liner, so comparing brand A's last length to brand B's last length gets thrown off by differences in the liner. Second, last length isn't the only contributing factor to how "long" or "short" a boot feels - a boot's the heel to instep distance is what pulls the foot back into the heel pocket of the boot, away from the front (think diagonal line from the base of the heel to the overlap area that curves upward under the cuff). For example, imagine size 26 boot A has a last length of 283mm and boot B is 285mm. If boot A has a shorter heel to instep distance, this boot will feel longer than the actual longer boot because the instep radius is pushing the foot into the back of the boot more. Higher instep boots feel shorter, lower instep boots feel longer.

In a perfect world, there would be a tool that could match a 3D scan of your foot with a 3D model of the interior dimensions of all available boots in the category you're shopping for, and you/your fitter could pick the boot that matched the closest, and then have them take it from there.

A few years ago, we spent a lot of money trying to do this but it doesn't work (in the modern era that we currently occupy). The problems with scanning a foot and pairing it with a last are two fold: the scanner has no idea your tolerance for foot compression and it doesn't know what liner is being used, which is also a compressable variable. There are many 102mm feet that are happy with a 98mm boot, with little to no boot work done to them. Sure I guess you could say that the boot fitter could compare how your foot lines up with the last, but he/she will have to see your foot inside the shell anyway. Most legitimate boot fitters that I know don't use any scanners besides gathering foot data because they have to do all of their "analog" assessment inside the shell anyway.

[MyNameIsAugustWest]

Second, last length isn't the only contributing factor to how "long" or "short" a boot feels - a boot's the heel to instep distance is what pulls the foot back into the heel pocket of the boot, away from the front (think diagonal line from the base of the heel to the overlap area that curves upward under the cuff). For example, imagine size 26 boot A has a last length of 283mm and boot B is 285mm. If boot A has a shorter heel to instep distance, this boot will feel longer than the actual longer boot because the instep radius is pushing the foot into the back of the boot more. Higher instep boots feel shorter, lower instep boots feel longer.

IIRC, Salomon used this measurement in combination with foot length to determine sizing in their rear entry boots of the late 80s/90s. I think I was in a 350/355 in the SX91E boots. No idea the math used to arrive at that number. I'm generally in a 27.5 or 28 mondo boot now.

[auvgeek]

This is all helpful info, thanks everyone.

I ordered the ZB and my shop said Lange cancelled the order, but the could get me the ZR. You are correct it is a 95MM last instead of the 92MM. It still has enough plastic for significant grinding. The boot is still a plug boot, they just widened the last. I was told the flex is the same 140 as the ZB. It might end up being a great option for more of an "out of the box" fit.

Having said that, I ended up just ordering the ZB online. If you do end up with the ZR I would be curious to hear how it works. Maybe I order that one in a few years with my ZB's are dead.

For reference, I currently ski the ZB that has been punched/ground to oblivion, but my feet have increased in width over the last few years so they no longer fit. Last time I saw my 'fitter, he said he could not make any more room.

Hence the ZR appeal. I also now live in a small ski town without a good boot fitter nearby, so I have to figure that out. It sounds like adrenelated has had good luck with Boot Doctors in Telluride so I might go that route. Or I maybe I'll plan a inbounds ski vacation around getting new boots. I have been tricked too many times into ordering a boot online and then having someone else fit it. Much much better to order directly through the bootfitter.

[gregL]

In a perfect world, there would be a tool that could match a 3D scan of your foot with a 3D model of the interior dimensions of all available boots in the category you're shopping for, and you/your fitter could pick the boot that matched the closest, and then have them take it from there.

There is. Sidas markets a scanning machine with software by Corpus.E in Germany call "ShooIQ" - you wear special socks and scan your feet and lower legs and it generates a 3D image. They have scanned the interiors of hundreds of common alpine and AT boot shells and you can compare them visually, with the hotspots showing up in red or orange. We had one, but by the time you get the socks on the customer you could have looked at their bare feet for a few seconds and picked the same boots, so we don't use it anymore.

The machine takes up quite a bit of floor space, and of course the customer has to be in the shop for any sort of analysis to happen - I use the Verifyt smartphone app now to pre-select boots for people remotely, which has worked out well. The temptation with Shoo.IQ is for less experienced bootfitters to simply go longer or wider until the red spots disappear and call it good, without regard for what a skilled bootfitter can do to eliminate the problems.

Top photo shows my feet, 3D model and specs, bottom photo shows my feet in an Atomic Hawx Ultra 130 26.5 . . .

[bennettc14]

Anyone been skiing these at all? Might make a move from my Raptor WCR 140 and always liked the Lange RS but found the 97mm last too wide.

[J. Barron DeJong]

Anyone been skiing these at all? Might make a move from my Raptor WCR 140 and always liked the Lange RS but found the 97mm last too wide.

I moved from an RX130 to an RS140 last season. Love them. The 140s feel much, much lower volume than the RX. Had a fair amount of movement in the RX, needed to grind the midfoot of the 140s so that my feet did not immediately cramp.

Edit: that was not really correct. I moved from an RX 130 *LV*, so same 97mm last shell as the RS (the boots were from before Lange introduced the Shadow).

[arild]

Anyone know if this next season's differ substantially from last season's in terms of volume? 140s, that is.

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[jummo]

The WC RS 140 was redesigned for last year and is unchanged for 25-26. Assuming the normal pattern, next year it will gain NGT (New Graphic Technology).

[arild]

Cheers!

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[arild]

Bit the bullet, ordered a pair. I foresee somr grinding in my future.

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[arild]

Well, compared to Raptor WCRs, the ZR95s/140s are much, much narrower in the mid- and forefoot, much narrower and shorter toe box, much tighter above the instep, and has a tighter heel pocket. Would make a lot of sense if I had a competent bootfitter nearby, but would mean grinding a whole lot, and even stretching the toes out.

In the end, sent them back to Lange.

Perhaps of interest; the closest fit I've found to the WCR 140 26.5 is actually the Dobermann 5s, the next size up, at 27.5. basically identical. I tried the 26.5 on, and while they'd work with some stretching, they're still pretty tiny. Atomic Remedy/Redster TX would also work well for my feet, given some stretching/toe box grinding.


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[bennettc14]

How was the Lange liner? Is it like the cork WC or more plush?


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[arild]

How was the Lange liner? Is it like the cork WC or more plush?


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WC liner. Decent quality!

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