Antiwork

[Mustonen]

Gig economy is playing into it a bit too, I think. You don’t have to be a part of some large corporation and make that your identity these days.

Times, they might actually be a-changin….

But I’m not making it up and I’m not lying when I say that, particularly the younger workforce and for some of those very same reasons, generally are looking for something more meaningful than “we make these widgets.” They want to belong to something and they want it to matter. THAT’S why we are building culture and engagement and after hours socials and community service days and volunteer opportunities and all that. Not because we’re getting them to work more hours for less, but because we want good people who will stay a bit and build a career.

[Ted Striker]

I realize it isn't a new idea but what is new is the number of the workforce that subscribe to it.

Yeah, and it's organized. The internet existed when I got my first "career track" job, but it wasn't anything like what it is today.

[californiagrown]

my buddy has a million dollar home in san jose ca

pretty dilapidated then, huh?

I totally agree with what youre saying, btw. Trades are great and soooo many sales/business minded folk wasting their lives in cubicles for mediocre pay could be making very good money learning a trade and turning it into their own business 5-10yrs down the line and make a killing. Its an excellent career path for a wide range of people. But, what i was questioning is that every generation is more educated than last, and has more student debt than the last. So when he says that his younger generation has low expenses and plenty to spend on toys the question i have is what about student loans? Doesnt fit the narrative of crushing student loan debt (which i am very aware is real).

[stealurface831]

pretty dilapidated then, huh?

I totally agree with what youre saying, btw. Trades are great and soooo many sales/business minded folk wasting their lives in cubicles for mediocre pay could be making very good money learning a trade and turning it into their own business 5-10yrs down the line and make a killing. Its an excellent career path for a wide range of people. But, what i was questioning is that every generation is more educated than last, and has more student debt than the last. So when he says that his younger generation has low expenses and plenty to spend on toys the question i have is what about student loans? Doesnt fit the narrative of crushing student loan debt (which i am very aware is real).

there is no plenty, thats the thing. i erred by making it sound like there is rampant consumerism by my generation, which i think is only true for a small minority. honestly, i think we are far more experience-driven than materialistic. but that is beside the point.

i think education being an industry, and one that markets very well, is the root cause of the student debt. we are force fed the idea that we have to go to college to be successful from kindergarten through senior year of high school. and so lots of us do, by any means necessary. but then we realize that we have no idea what we want to do, end up choosing a singular field of study on a whim, and then enter an inundated job market pertaining to that field of study, only to find out that there are either no jobs or that the work is actually miserable and not at all what we want to do. there is also the person who knows what they want to do, gets a useless degree, realizes that what they wanted to do pays nothing, and thus gets put into longterm debt.

[climberevan]

It isn't that we don't give a shit about the company picnic specifically. We don't give a shit about our jobs generally. .

The whole post was excellent.

I wonder how much of this attitude is driven on the supply (employer) end rather than the demand (worker) end. Work has objectively become more transactional, and the whole economy has become more demanding since, say, the 60s. Why would someone feel any loyalty to a company that barely provides any benefits, offers no pension, and actively works to undermine the social safety net while also working to further lower its taxes and those of its executives, who are also getting bigger bonuses than ever?

Everyone loves to say that the younger generations don't want to work. Well, maybe it's because the olds made work so fucking shitty that only a fool would fall for the scam.

I also think some of you aren't really grasping the depth of despair young people feel. They REALLY don't see a future for them or any progeny they might have. If you really believe, to the core, that the world is going to be a smoldering waste when you reach "retirement" age, your whole life calculation changes.

[skaredshtles]

Corporate greed is real, sure. But building culture with intent isn’t just cynical, it’s also something that you do if you give a shit about your employees. We’re conflating doing that poorly with whether or not it should be done at all, and that conflation seems below the level of this conversation, especially with you characters.

And I agree that some people just wanna punch that clock. That is just fine and we need Marge in accounting who just wants to work AP for the next 20 years so she can take two/three vacations a year and retire comfortably. And yeah, I don’t fully understand it because I tend to be pretty driven. Doesn’t mean I don’t accept it.

Holy shit.

I'm Marge in accounting.

[skaredshtles]

For me and many of my peers, work isn't a means to an end, as it is for Marge. It is the means through which we do the shit now that Marge does in retirement. The idea that work is what gets us to retirement, and that retirement is when we really get to enjoy things is dead to kids my age. So we are doing that shit know, while our knees are good and our dicks work. We work for the weekends and vacation days and money for bikes, skis, rafts, beer, travel, rods, shoes, and tickets. And we realize that upward mobility in a job affords us the opportunity to have more of these things, often with less time on the clock. But if the chance to grow in a job isn't there, we are gone. And if we don't have to work at all, we won't.

It isn't that we don't give a shit about the company picnic specifically. We don't give a shit about our jobs generally. We have very few expenses comparatively. Rent, utilities, car payment and insurance, Netflix subscription, gas. We have very little permanence in our lives. If something better is somewhere else, we are going there. And I don't foresee much of a change as we age and mature. Very few folks my age want a family down the line. Granted, that is a timeless platitude for folks my age throughout history but I think we are the ones who actually follow through with it. Population decline and childbirth rates suggest it is already happening. We are content with a partner, a dog, and some toys. We want the things we want and we want to do the things we want to do. If a job can't make that work, we aren't going to work in that job.

Wait. I'm not Marge. I'm apparently Gen-Z.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
my buddy has a million dollar home in san jose ca never went to school just became an electrician

Million dollar home in San Jose:

[schuss]

In terms of culture: it's on management to do the work first and actually be honest about it. A lot of "culture building" breaks down to "come enjoy us half assing a work event with 1 free drink and some shitty apps as we don't want to actually spend real money on this" or some other theme of using people free time on work stuff.

I like my coworkers fine, but there's very few I want to spend my limited free time with and given the choice between family, hobbies and coworkers I'm picking not work.

If you truly want to build investment in the company, most companies need to do a hell of a lot better on equitable equity grants and transparency around bonus, comp, performance and company performance. You can't build a high performance culture with legacy shitheads sitting on their asses and reaping the rewards of subordinates performance.

Also - movement is how people get meaningful comp upgrades as it's roughly twice as fast as being in-company. So either get more aggressive or accept higher attrition.

[stealurface831]

I might be about to pull an anti work move here in a minute. System says our team is gonna be here till 6am. Tomorrow is my last day. Do I say fuck it and walk out?


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[Supermoon]

I might be about to pull an anti work move here in a minute. System says our team is gonna be here till 6am. Tomorrow is my last day. Do I say fuck it and walk out?


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If it screws your coworkers, stay. If it just screws the company who cares

[stealurface831]

Stuck it out. They ended up offering lift and truck drivers time and a half to pick orders until we finished, so it was only 13 hours of deadlifts and cleans.


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[east or bust]

In terms of culture: it's on management to do the work first and actually be honest about it. A lot of "culture building" breaks down to "come enjoy us half assing a work event with 1 free drink and some shitty apps as we don't want to actually spend real money on this" or some other theme of using people free time on work stuff.

I like my coworkers fine, but there's very few I want to spend my limited free time with and given the choice between family, hobbies and coworkers I'm picking not work.

If you truly want to build investment in the company, most companies need to do a hell of a lot better on equitable equity grants and transparency around bonus, comp, performance and company performance. You can't build a high performance culture with legacy shitheads sitting on their asses and reaping the rewards of subordinates performance.

Also - movement is how people get meaningful comp upgrades as it's roughly twice as fast as being in-company. So either get more aggressive or accept higher attrition.

Nailed it.

Legacy shitheads…. I’m totally stealing that term haha

[Mustonen]

In terms of culture: it's on management to do the work first and actually be honest about it. A lot of "culture building" breaks down to "come enjoy us half assing a work event with 1 free drink and some shitty apps as we don't want to actually spend real money on this" or some other theme of using people free time on work stuff.

I like my coworkers fine, but there's very few I want to spend my limited free time with and given the choice between family, hobbies and coworkers I'm picking not work.

If you truly want to build investment in the company, most companies need to do a hell of a lot better on equitable equity grants and transparency around bonus, comp, performance and company performance. You can't build a high performance culture with legacy shitheads sitting on their asses and reaping the rewards of subordinates performance.

Also - movement is how people get meaningful comp upgrades as it's roughly twice as fast as being in-company. So either get more aggressive or accept higher attrition.

Agreed on all counts.

[Boosh]

Also - movement is how people get meaningful comp upgrades as it's roughly twice as fast as being in-company. So either get more aggressive or accept higher attrition.

I work as a construction PM for a large firm, and related to a lot of what was said earlier in this thread. in terms of the quote above here, I had a competing offer for another company, brought it back to my Exec. and negotiated more at my current spot. They gave me about 50% of what I was slated to make by jumping ship, but I didn't really want to jump ship to begin with, just felt like I was underpaid so was somewhat happy with the small bump and keeping up with the status quo.

A few months go by and my Ops manager sets up a meeting with me, I go into her office and she starts reaming me for "running my mouth" about them negotiating with me, falsely accused me of telling others to go get competing offers to try and better their own salary, etc.... she proceeds to say that "it's not our policy to match salary, you're lucky we did it with you, I've had to let a bunch of good people walk bc we don't normally do this, idk what it is about your generation feeling entitled to more money,".. meanwhile they're freaking out bc tons of people are actually leaving and she can't staff our projects properly, so I say to her:

A. it shouldn't come as a shock to you that people talk about this stuff nowadays - but for the record I was not encouraging others to get competing offers; if anything I'm a positive example for you bc I took less money to stay here with this firm;

B. if you're telling me it's not your policy to match salaries, but in the same sentence tell me you're worried about people leaving, maybe you ought to re-think YOUR policy; the market is red hot with companies looking for talent, it's no secret that people can make $40k more by going to the guy down the street

I agree with the perspective of feeling like we're stuck in an overall failing system, and that the gaps in pay between the top tier staff and the bottom tier make it even worse. sure us millennials may feel entitled to a little more, but we work out of the most profitable office in our company and we don't get shit as a thank you, they pay us as little as possible while expecting 50-60 hours of work per week in roles that sometimes suck... I was in our business development dept. for a few years, I know how much we make in profit every year, and it makes me sick that our employees get the shaft over and over again

[Mustonen]

I understand the school of thought in re: not matching offers, but that only works if they actually keep pay scales current and fair and competitive. If you’re at a fair rate and can reasonably be replaced for that rate, and you’re shopping and getting offers and really want to go do that, then go. There’s a difference between matching offers and adjusting pay scales based on new and updated information.

Also, she’s wandering into some territory that will eventually run afoul of the NLRA. You have to make peace with employees discussing rate of pay, and the only way to really be at peace with it is to have a realistic idea of the marketplace and be able to sell what you’re offering.

There’s a lot of work and administrative culture built around secrecy and black boxes and mystery and that grates on me, and you see it rear its head in these conversations. I continue to gently push for wage transparency at my workplace, along with peer data and a more open discussion of how we set wages. It’s not catching on like wildfire and there are some who still staunchly oppose it. I think the decision will eventually be made for us….

[skaredshtles]

I work as a construction PM for a large firm, and related to a lot of what was said earlier in this thread. in terms of the quote above here, I had a competing offer for another company, brought it back to my Exec. and negotiated more at my current spot. They gave me about 50% of what I was slated to make by jumping ship, but I didn't really want to jump ship to begin with, just felt like I was underpaid so was somewhat happy with the small bump and keeping up with the status quo.

A few months go by and my Ops manager sets up a meeting with me, I go into her office and she starts reaming me for "running my mouth" about them negotiating with me, falsely accused me of telling others to go get competing offers to try and better their own salary, etc.... she proceeds to say that "it's not our policy to match salary, you're lucky we did it with you, I've had to let a bunch of good people walk bc we don't normally do this, idk what it is about your generation feeling entitled to more money,".. meanwhile they're freaking out bc tons of people are actually leaving and she can't staff our projects properly, so I say to her:

A. it shouldn't come as a shock to you that people talk about this stuff nowadays - but for the record I was not encouraging others to get competing offers; if anything I'm a positive example for you bc I took less money to stay here with this firm;

B. if you're telling me it's not your policy to match salaries, but in the same sentence tell me you're worried about people leaving, maybe you ought to re-think YOUR policy; the market is red hot with companies looking for talent, it's no secret that people can make $40k more by going to the guy down the street

I agree with the perspective of feeling like we're stuck in an overall failing system, and that the gaps in pay between the top tier staff and the bottom tier make it even worse. sure us millennials may feel entitled to a little more, but we work out of the most profitable office in our company and we don't get shit as a thank you, they pay us as little as possible while expecting 50-60 hours of work per week in roles that sometimes suck... I was in our business development dept. for a few years, I know how much we make in profit every year, and it makes me sick that our employees get the shaft over and over again

You probably should have taken that other job...

[californiagrown]

I understand the school of thought in re: not matching offers, but that only works if they actually keep pay scales current and fair and competitive. If you’re at a fair rate and can reasonably be replaced for that rate, and you’re shopping and getting offers and really want to go do that, then go. There’s a difference between matching offers and adjusting pay scales based on new and updated information.

Also, she’s wandering into some territory that will eventually run afoul of the NLRA. You have to make peace with employees discussing rate of pay, and the only way to really be at peace with it is to have a realistic idea of the marketplace and be able to sell what you’re offering.

There’s a lot of work and administrative culture built around secrecy and black boxes and mystery and that grates on me, and you see it rear its head in these conversations. I continue to gently push for wage transparency at my workplace, along with peer data and a more open discussion of how we set wages. It’s not catching on like wildfire and there are some who still staunchly oppose it. I think the decision will eventually be made for us….

I was just coming out of college in the great recession, so IDK. How much did loyalty and the established precedent of being a hard worker going above and beyond factor into job retention when the shit started hitting the fan?

[Mustonen]

I was just coming out of college in the great recession, so IDK. How much did loyalty and the established precedent of being a hard worker going above and beyond factor into job retention when the shit started hitting the fan?

Me too.

I’ll have people (sometimes employees) talk about leaving for whatever reason, but they feel so bad because they’re really gonna put us into a bind, and then offer to come in and help if we need it over the next couple months. I’ll gently remind them that if they end up having a hard time making their mortgage payment in a couple months, we probably aren’t going to offer to help them with it, so just focus on their next step and feel good about it.

Though to be fair, it’s not that different from offering a severance upon layoffs, etc.

To your question, those who work hard and add value are going to get more consideration than those who slack off; is that commensurate with extra effort? Depends on the situation, probably. It’s an employee’s market right now, I expect it’ll eventually shift back. But maybe it won’t? These dynamics shift dramatically depending on where the leverage is, my goal is to generally be as insulated from all of that as possible because I have kids to feed and shit.

[AK47bp]

Stuck it out. They ended up offering lift and truck drivers time and a half to pick orders until we finished, so it was only 13 hours of deadlifts and cleans.


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Someone get this kid a cookie.

He earned it.


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[jono]

I understand the school of thought in re: not matching offers, but that only works if they actually keep pay scales current and fair and competitive. If you’re at a fair rate and can reasonably be replaced for that rate, and you’re shopping and getting offers and really want to go do that, then go.

+1. Conversely, I always made it my policy that if I had to go looking for another offer there was no point giving the old employer a chance to match it. I told potential and current employers that up front and I gave plenty of chances to negotiate before I went looking, so if I found something better they lost the silent auction. Sorry, not sorry. Should have put your best offer on the table sooner. I never wanted to work in a place that made me look for a new job every time I deserved a raise.

[skaredshtles]

Someone get this kid a cookie.

He earned it.


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Goddammit. Everyone is getting a cookie 'cept for me.

[muted reborn]

Million dollar home in San Jose:

Looks like Fred's friend shoulda gone to college. Sad.

Pretty good thread overall - I'll vaguely say it made me take some shit more seriously at work and implement changes within the last 2 days thanks to some of your guys thoughts.

[oldnew_guy]

I work as a construction PM for a large firm, and related to a lot of what was said earlier in this thread. in terms of the quote above here, I had a competing offer for another company, brought it back to my Exec. and negotiated more at my current spot. They gave me about 50% of what I was slated to make by jumping ship, but I didn't really want to jump ship to begin with, just felt like I was underpaid so was somewhat happy with the small bump and keeping up with the status quo.

A few months go by and my Ops manager sets up a meeting with me, I go into her office and she starts reaming me for "running my mouth" about them negotiating with me, falsely accused me of telling others to go get competing offers to try and better their own salary, etc.... she proceeds to say that "it's not our policy to match salary, you're lucky we did it with you, I've had to let a bunch of good people walk bc we don't normally do this, idk what it is about your generation feeling entitled to more money,".. meanwhile they're freaking out bc tons of people are actually leaving and she can't staff our projects properly, so I say to her:

A. it shouldn't come as a shock to you that people talk about this stuff nowadays - but for the record I was not encouraging others to get competing offers; if anything I'm a positive example for you bc I took less money to stay here with this firm;

B. if you're telling me it's not your policy to match salaries, but in the same sentence tell me you're worried about people leaving, maybe you ought to re-think YOUR policy; the market is red hot with companies looking for talent, it's no secret that people can make $40k more by going to the guy down the street

I agree with the perspective of feeling like we're stuck in an overall failing system, and that the gaps in pay between the top tier staff and the bottom tier make it even worse. sure us millennials may feel entitled to a little more, but we work out of the most profitable office in our company and we don't get shit as a thank you, they pay us as little as possible while expecting 50-60 hours of work per week in roles that sometimes suck... I was in our business development dept. for a few years, I know how much we make in profit every year, and it makes me sick that our employees get the shaft over and over again

C should have been: How dare you call me entitled when you are saying you are entitled to pay me and others less than your competition for the same work.

[stealurface831]

Goddammit. Everyone is getting a cookie 'cept for me.

You can have mine. I just want my overtime pay.