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Thread: Antiwork

  1. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn View Post
    Back on topic, I’m tired of working hard for the people who benefit the most. They are lucky and opportunistic and we do all the work for them. It’s all about ego and ambition.
    Well, you'll never be one of them with that attitude!

  2. #277
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    Quote Originally Posted by J. Barron DeJong View Post
    You have interns doing supervisory work?
    If they can hack it, yes. Granted, it doesn't take a whole lot to successfully manage a seasoned foreman. It's the classic wet behind the ears Lieutenant being the boss of the 30 year Sgt. So long at Lt. has enough sense to get Sarge whatever the hell he needs when he needs it, Lt is going to be a success.

    We also count the first 3 months of a Field Engineer's career as an internship if they haven't interned for us before, so they could be a graduate.
    Wait, how can we trust this guy^^^ He's clearly not DJSapp

  3. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    Well, you'll never be one of them with that attitude!
    Neither will you unless you're really into fucking your employees over or were born rich.

  4. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by Summer View Post
    Seeing as I wasn't born into a rich family, I demand to speak to the birth manager! That bastard must've already quiet quit when it came time to assign me.
    You should probably quit.

    But, quietly.

  5. #280
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    The emphasis on personal responsibility is a scam that was concocted in a think tank funded by oil companies.

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by TahoeJ View Post
    The emphasis on personal responsibility is a scam that was concocted in a think tank funded by oil companies.
    Well certainly the attempts to get me to extend my personal responsibility beyond an agreed upon exchange of my labor for money are a scam.

    “We are all one big family here at megacorp” …

  7. #282
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    Antiwork

    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Well certainly the attempts to get me to extend my personal responsibility beyond an agreed upon exchange of my labor for money are a scam.

    “We are all one big family here at megacorp” …
    But you take that away and people miss it, especially the younger demo. They want inclusion and belonging and a sense of community. I’m not advocating for that, I don’t really need those things myself, but pulling them into something more than just attaching cover sheets to TPS reports is a key part of attraction and retention.

    You have to account for it and build it for reasons beyond just getting more for less. The cynical see it as corporate greed and it gives rise to “anti work,” the less cynical see it as building meaning and community and see “anti work” as just another word for disengagement.

    It’s all a big muddy mess, right?
    focus.

  8. #283
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    But you take that away and people miss it, especially the younger demo. They want inclusion and belonging and a sense of community. I’m not advocating for that, I don’t really need those things myself, but pulling them into something more than just attaching cover sheets to TPS reports is a key part of attraction and retention.

    You have to account for it and build it for reasons beyond just getting more for less. The cynical see it as corporate greed and it gives rise to “anti work,” the less cynical see it as building meaning and community and see “anti work” as just another word for disengagement.

    It’s all a big muddy mess, right?
    You are way off on this one.

  9. #284
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    You are way off on this one.
    Indubitably, but I’m here for the discussion and to explore competing viewpoints so I can realign mine where warranted, so care to share yours?
    focus.

  10. #285
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Well certainly the attempts to get me to extend my personal responsibility beyond an agreed upon exchange of my labor for money are a scam.

    “We are all one big family here at megacorp” …
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    But you take that away and people miss it, especially the younger demo. They want inclusion and belonging and a sense of community. I’m not advocating for that, I don’t really need those things myself, but pulling them into something more than just attaching cover sheets to TPS reports is a key part of attraction and retention.

    You have to account for it and build it for reasons beyond just getting more for less. The cynical see it as corporate greed and it gives rise to “anti work,” the less cynical see it as building meaning and community and see “anti work” as just another word for disengagement.

    It’s all a big muddy mess, right?
    People want respect and reasonable expectations. They do not want to be patronized by fake or forced company culture. Company intent and employee interpretation matters. Corporate greed is real. It doesn't take a cynic to see it.

    Several times you suggested or implied people should want more; that you don't understand what you perceive as lack of ambition. The reality is some people are content doing what they do. They want to go to work, punch a clock, and leave. I've worked with a bunch of them. They don't want to move up. They don't expect more than COL or negotiated raises. They are not interested in pizza parties or growing the company or the next rung on the ladder. They want to do their job and go home. Provide opportunity for more but be willing to move on when more is not their goal.

  11. #286
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    Yeah, there’s a big difference between “culture” and actual workplace culture that’s not built around pizza parties and mandatory fun off sites.

  12. #287
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    Antiwork

    Quote Originally Posted by Mazderati View Post
    People want respect and reasonable expectations. They do not want to be patronized by fake or forced company culture. Company intent and employee interpretation matters. Corporate greed is real. It doesn't take a cynic to see it.

    Several times you suggested or implied people should want more; that you don't understand what you perceive as lack of ambition. The reality is some people are content doing what they do. They want to go to work, punch a clock, and leave. I've worked with a bunch of them. They don't want to move up. They don't expect more than COL or negotiated raises. They are not interested in pizza parties or growing the company or the next rung on the ladder. They want to do their job and go home. Provide opportunity for more but be willing to move on when more is not the goal.
    Corporate greed is real, sure. But building culture with intent isn’t just cynical, it’s also something that you do if you give a shit about your employees. We’re conflating doing that poorly with whether or not it should be done at all, and that conflation seems below the level of this conversation, especially with you characters.

    And I agree that some people just wanna punch that clock. That is just fine and we need Marge in accounting who just wants to work AP for the next 20 years so she can take two/three vacations a year and retire comfortably. And yeah, I don’t fully understand it because I tend to be pretty driven. Doesn’t mean I don’t accept it.

    But you know what? The correlation between those who (edit!) DON’T give a shit about culture and pizza parties and growing the company and those who just want to work the job they have for the next 20 years isn’t 1. Marge in accounting is often the one who loudest bemoans the fact that we had to cancel the company picnic because of COVID. What I also know is that those who move the needle and want to grow and contribute to the company beyond just punching the clock are also very likely to give a shit about culture and engagement and mission. So you gotta build it, and it isn’t just bullshit.
    focus.

  13. #288
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustonen View Post
    Corporate greed is real, sure. But building culture with intent isn’t just cynical, it’s also something that you do if you give a shit about your employees. We’re conflating doing that poorly with whether or not it should be done at all, and that conflation seems below the level of this conversation, especially with you characters.

    And I agree that some people just wanna punch that clock. That is just fine and we need Marge in accounting who just wants to work AP for the next 20 years so she can take two/three vacations a year and retire comfortably. And yeah, I don’t fully understand it because I tend to be pretty driven. Doesn’t mean I don’t accept it.

    But you know what? The correlation between those who (edit!) DON’T give a shit about culture and pizza parties and growing the company and those who just want to work the job they have for the next 20 years isn’t 1. Marge in accounting is often the one who loudest bemoans the fact that we had to cancel the company picnic because of COVID. What I also know is that those who move the needle and want to grow and contribute to the company beyond just punching the clock are also very likely to give a shit about culture and engagement and mission. So you gotta build it, and it isn’t just bullshit.
    Here is the thing I think you are missing.

    Many, many people now clearly see that working harder and being driven to grow the company is a one sided transaction that results often is work-life balance issues (long hours, stress, etc) and is only translating into earnings for the top.

    I think you have a bit of an edge case on your hands where someone doesn’t quite understand the opportunity to learn and grow they are being given. Many people experience downsizing or organizational growth that results in additional expectations, hours, stress, availability requirements and no additional compensation. They are rightly calling it bullshit.

  14. #289
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Here is the thing I think you are missing.

    Many, many people now clearly see that working harder and being driven to grow the company is a one sided transaction that results often is work-life balance issues (long hours, stress, etc) and is only translating into earnings for the top.

    I think you have a bit of an edge case on your hands where someone doesn’t quite understand the opportunity to learn and grow they are being given. Many people experience downsizing or organizational growth that results in additional expectations, hours, stress, availability requirements and no additional compensation. They are rightly calling it bullshit.
    Nailed it. And it's hard to pin down what company is going to do what until you've been there at least a little while. Our house is a good example. My wife had been at a company since college (15+ yrs) and they had some layoffs. She got extra work including middle of the night zoom calls as it was an international company. No extra pay. After a couple years of that, she quit. They still call her occasionally to come back and are paying someone with no experience who had been with the company less than a quarter of the tenure more. Lame.

    I busted my ass for a number of years for my company and received a pat on the back and unsolicited equity grants that if they perform, will pay for a majority of my retirement. All luck of the draw I guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Well, I'm not allowed to delete this post, but, I can say, go fuck yourselves, everybody!

  15. #290
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    Antiwork

    Quote Originally Posted by oldnew_guy View Post
    Here is the thing I think you are missing.

    Many, many people now clearly see that working harder and being driven to grow the company is a one sided transaction that results often is work-life balance issues (long hours, stress, etc) and is only translating into earnings for the top.

    I think you have a bit of an edge case on your hands where someone doesn’t quite understand the opportunity to learn and grow they are being given. Many people experience downsizing or organizational growth that results in additional expectations, hours, stress, availability requirements and no additional compensation. They are rightly calling it bullshit.
    I recognize my anecdote for what it is, but it isn’t the only example I have. I’ve seen several examples that speak to a line of rationalization that I only rarely encountered in the past but seem to see more frequently these days, with promotions and more money (for the same hours) being turned down because they imagine whatever it is they’re being asked to do is worth a lot more than we’re offering. Which, per the marketplace, it simply isn’t, and in terms of their career progression and stated goals, is counterproductive.

    It’s interesting, that’s all. I don’t see it as a huge problem where I work, but it has confounded me a few times the last few months.

    I’m not at all against “anti work” or “quiet quitting” and pushing back against what you describe. I’ve seen that too. All I’m saying is that this broad brush we’re painting with is too broad. Culture and team building and commitment and shared mission isn’t the issue, and the anti work movement, such that it exists, seems to be ripe for misapplication.
    focus.

  16. #291
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    Quote Originally Posted by Not DJSapp View Post
    If they can hack it, yes. Granted, it doesn't take a whole lot to successfully manage a seasoned foreman. It's the classic wet behind the ears Lieutenant being the boss of the 30 year Sgt. So long at Lt. has enough sense to get Sarge whatever the hell he needs when he needs it, Lt is going to be a success.

    We also count the first 3 months of a Field Engineer's career as an internship if they haven't interned for us before, so they could be a graduate.
    Perfect picture of why "safety" and welfare are disconnected.

    Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

  17. #292
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    For me and many of my peers, work isn't a means to an end, as it is for Marge. It is the means through which we do the shit now that Marge does in retirement. The idea that work is what gets us to retirement, and that retirement is when we really get to enjoy things is dead to kids my age. So we are doing that shit know, while our knees are good and our dicks work. We work for the weekends and vacation days and money for bikes, skis, rafts, beer, travel, rods, shoes, and tickets. And we realize that upward mobility in a job affords us the opportunity to have more of these things, often with less time on the clock. But if the chance to grow in a job isn't there, we are gone. And if we don't have to work at all, we won't.

    It isn't that we don't give a shit about the company picnic specifically. We don't give a shit about our jobs generally. We have very few expenses comparatively. Rent, utilities, car payment and insurance, Netflix subscription, gas. We have very little permanence in our lives. If something better is somewhere else, we are going there. And I don't foresee much of a change as we age and mature. Very few folks my age want a family down the line. Granted, that is a timeless platitude for folks my age throughout history but I think we are the ones who actually follow through with it. Population decline and childbirth rates suggest it is already happening. We are content with a partner, a dog, and some toys. We want the things we want and we want to do the things we want to do. If a job can't make that work, we aren't going to work in that job.
    swing your fucking sword.

  18. #293
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealurface831 View Post
    We have very few expenses comparatively. Rent, utilities, car payment and insurance, Netflix subscription, gas. We have very little permanence in our lives. If something better is somewhere else, we are going there. We are content with a partner, a dog, and some toys. We want the things we want and we want to do the things we want to do. If a job can't make that work, we aren't going to work in that job.
    So why is student loan debt such a problem?

  19. #294
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    So why is student loan debt such a problem?
    This is a problem with older generations. A representative of a younger generation is giving some insight and the elders choose to question it instead of just shutting the fuck up and listening.
    Quote Originally Posted by Benny Profane View Post
    Well, I'm not allowed to delete this post, but, I can say, go fuck yourselves, everybody!

  20. #295
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    So why is student loan debt such a problem?
    Is this a trick question?

    I assume it’s because having more money gives you the freedom to buy and do more of the things that make you happiest. (Which could include ‘buying’ less work.)

  21. #296
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealurface831 View Post
    For me and many of my peers, work isn't a means to an end, as it is for Marge. It is the means through which we do the shit now that Marge does in retirement. The idea that work is what gets us to retirement, and that retirement is when we really get to enjoy things is dead to kids my age. So we are doing that shit know, while our knees are good and our dicks work. We work for the weekends and vacation days and money for bikes, skis, rafts, beer, travel, rods, shoes, and tickets. And we realize that upward mobility in a job affords us the opportunity to have more of these things, often with less time on the clock. But if the chance to grow in a job isn't there, we are gone. And if we don't have to work at all, we won't.
    That ain't new. 24 hours on and 6 days off is what prompted me to join the FD all those years ago.

  22. #297
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    Yeah, GenXers felt the same way.

  23. #298
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    Quote Originally Posted by stealurface831 View Post
    For me and many of my peers, work isn't a means to an end, as it is for Marge. It is the means through which we do the shit now that Marge does in retirement. The idea that work is what gets us to retirement, and that retirement is when we really get to enjoy things is dead to kids my age. So we are doing that shit know, while our knees are good and our dicks work. We work for the weekends and vacation days and money for bikes, skis, rafts, beer, travel, rods, shoes, and tickets. And we realize that upward mobility in a job affords us the opportunity to have more of these things, often with less time on the clock. But if the chance to grow in a job isn't there, we are gone. And if we don't have to work at all, we won't.

    It isn't that we don't give a shit about the company picnic specifically. We don't give a shit about our jobs generally. We have very few expenses comparatively. Rent, utilities, car payment and insurance, Netflix subscription, gas. We have very little permanence in our lives. If something better is somewhere else, we are going there. And I don't foresee much of a change as we age and mature. Very few folks my age want a family down the line. Granted, that is a timeless platitude for folks my age throughout history but I think we are the ones who actually follow through with it. Population decline and childbirth rates suggest it is already happening. We are content with a partner, a dog, and some toys. We want the things we want and we want to do the things we want to do. If a job can't make that work, we aren't going to work in that job.
    excellent

    most old fuckers don't get it cause they were told to work hard and the company would take care of you then you can buy an rv and goto europe when you retire but have kids and work hard first right?

    I'm so glad I fucked off so well when I was in my 20s always broke but it was worth it
    just walked off a number of jobs or did a no call no show I quit type thing

  24. #299
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    Quote Originally Posted by californiagrown View Post
    So why is student loan debt such a problem?
    because kids are being told they need to goto college if they don't they are a failure
    so kids who have no reason to goto college do and rack up tons of debt
    goes back to learning a trade why waste the time in college when someone is willing to teach you how to be a mechanic or an electrician
    my buddy has a million dollar home in san jose ca never went to school just became an electrician

  25. #300
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    Quote Originally Posted by zion zig zag View Post
    That ain't new. 24 hours on and 6 days off is what prompted me to join the FD all those years ago.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ted Striker View Post
    Yeah, GenXers felt the same way.
    I realize it isn't a new idea but what is new is the number of the workforce that subscribe to it.
    swing your fucking sword.

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