Antiwork

[warthog]

Non DJ. Agree.
I work with electricians. Most of the top guys get in the office pretty quickly, avoiding the broken body scenario, and all make good cash. Mostly non union here, but similar apprentice programs with outfits like ABC and IES. They train and trade people depending on the job needs. They are begging for people and paying for them to learn on the job.
My buddy runs a crew of welders that work on giant boilers. He makes some CA$H money, but is always on the road. I don't see the "broken body" aspect as being the biggest problem in the trades. Anyone with a halfway decent head on their shoulders is going to move up to super or PM, or lead in short order. The bigger problem is the time away from family. Most of these guys travel far to job sites, have per diems, and live on the road. Money is good, but they are never around to spend it. Of course, I know corporate types that the same applies.

[up an down]

You have to win the lottery to be a longshoreman.

Then you have to have the flexibility to show up every day knowing you'll likely not get work until you get enough hours to move up the seniority ranks.

That is certainly true at least in Oahu.. Friend I know waited 14 years until he was able to get a spot there as a long shore man.. Not sure who he had to kill...

[Not DJSapp]

Non DJ. Agree.
I work with electricians. Most of the top guys get in the office pretty quickly, avoiding the broken body scenario, and all make good cash. Mostly non union here, but similar apprentice programs with outfits like ABC and IES. They train and trade people depending on the job needs. They are begging for people and paying for them to learn on the job.
My buddy runs a crew of welders that work on giant boilers. He makes some CA$H money, but is always on the road. I don't see the "broken body" aspect as being the biggest problem in the trades. Anyone with a halfway decent head on their shoulders is going to move up to super or PM, or lead in short order. The bigger problem is the time away from family. Most of these guys travel far to job sites, have per diems, and live on the road. Money is good, but they are never around to spend it. Of course, I know corporate types that the same applies.

Sparkies make some of the best money out there, but it's harder to get in as a construction inside wireman than any of the rest. Just helped a friend's son get into the IBEW down in SoCal and they only had lighting and audio positions open (likely film and movies, not construction). Still good money.

[nickwm21]

Re: Trades / Broken Bodies

With advancement of tech and stronger safety standards - these guys aren’t breaking their bodies in the same way they were 20 years ago.

One example …We’re doing a 15,000sf deck pour today and the hose is being dragged by a machine (line dragon) not by humans…

However ironworkers, drywallers, flooring installers - Would be the exception to that….


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[fastfred]

pretty much
even in residential some of the change has occurred due to lack of labor and people working smarter not harder which has also increased costs of building

plumbers use mini track hoes now to dig underground lines 20 years ago it was all hand dug
we used to hump big wood beams steel beams and walls no one does that anymore call a crane or have a lift on site

I took over a phased in structural remediation project for a shitty condo complex the manager was alittle thrown back by the way I was going to do things
the contractor who started the project retired and was old school hand digging holes mixing concrete you name it
I'm like machines and trucks
going over safety shit we settle on a man lift too no ladders major costs increases but easier on the workers and safer

[highangle]

Call before you dig!

[cinnepa]

^^^word.
I hit my gas line only a few inches underground at my house last year installing a french drain. 1 good hit with my mattock and the loudest hiss was heard everywhere. Had the ems crews at my house in minutes.

[californiagrown]

Re: Trades / Broken Bodies

With advancement of tech and stronger safety standards - these guys aren’t breaking their bodies in the same way they were 20 years ago.

One example …We’re doing a 15,000sf deck pour today and the hose is being dragged by a machine (line dragon) not by humans…

However ironworkers, drywallers, flooring installers - Would be the exception to that….


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Youre less likely to be maimed or killed these days for sure.

However, the handful of electricians and plumbers i know all have chronic use injuries in their wrists or elbows or backs. thankfully im a desk jockey because with how sloppy my shoulders are now, theres no way i could do what they do everyday. I sublexed a shoulder brushing my teeth the other night.

[LongShortLong]

Youre less likely to be maimed or killed these days for sure.

However, the handful of electricians and plumbers i know all have chronic use injuries in their wrists or elbows or backs. thankfully im a desk jockey because with how sloppy my shoulders are now, theres no way i could do what they do everyday. I sublexed a shoulder brushing my teeth the other night.

The handful of software engineers (desk job) I know is the same. Less so with the elbows, but lots of wrist and back problems.

[Mazderati]

[Mazderati]

Wonder if they're running ads in Highlights.

[rideit]

I think Matt Gaetz cruises the personals in the back pages.

[TahoeJ]

I think Matt Gaetz cruises the personals in the back pages.

Now that Florida is re-examining what information can be taught in schools, did you know they will only recognize 17 as a prime number, because that's the age Matt Gaetz considers women to be in their prime?

[stuckathuntermtn]

I have noticed that instead of companies doing things like, idk, allowing employees to sit or have longer lunch breaks, they just get bigger Now Hiring signs.

Yeah, that oughta do it! Everyone loves standing on concrete for 8hrs interrupted only by a half hour lunch break and 2 15's. And don't forget the angry customers venting their impotent rage (and rona!) all up in your face.


Ugh, nobody wants to work anymore!

[paulster2626]

Have we discussed the huge demographic shift that's happening as the boomers all retire around the same time, leaving many jobs unable to be filled simply due to a lack of people? Is this even a thing?

[Mazderati]

Is availability of people really an issue? Non-boomers outnumber boomers.

[TahoeJ]

Have we discussed the huge demographic shift that's happening as the boomers all retire around the same time, leaving many jobs unable to be filled simply due to a lack of people? Is this even a thing?

It's a combination of that and our limiting of legal immigration over the past several years. Which is also a major contributing factor towards inflation.

[BCMtnHound]

Have we discussed the huge demographic shift that's happening as the boomers all retire around the same time, leaving many jobs unable to be filled simply due to a lack of people? Is this even a thing?

Yes. Mostly anecdotal from my immediate experience, but far more in my world are retiring (and retiring earlier due to real estate and other long-term investment massive rise over the past 5yrs), than those available or willing to enter into the entry level positions becoming vacant as all move up the ladder to replace the retirees. Compounded with wage stagnation, COVID and WFH, and changing societal expectations & outlooks have put us in this mess. Especially in health care, the schools have not foreseen or considered the demand from retiring folk, and my wife gave a stat from her mgmt that something like 40%+ of new hires don’t last more than 6mo. Job conditions being #1 and pay being #2. Don’t get me started on the compound effect of WFH’ers moving out to the sticks, paying massively inflated house prices/rents, causing crazy accommodation shortfalls in the rural towns.

But ya, Maz is partly right in that there is no single massive reason or solution to the current mess, including boomer retirement.

[doebedoe]

Job conditions and wages are solvable problems. Especially in highly profitable industries like healthcare.

(In the context of US...countries with real healthcare systems may vary.)

[BCMtnHound]

Another anecdotal observation is that I see most of the older generations (both boomers, genX) started their careers in work that was in the physical meat-space, and still largely in those careers, generally.

Over the past 15yrs, so many more careers have arisen in the cyber realm, so available workforce has been further degraded by those opportunities, thus the challenge in the trades getting younger people interested in the profession. I think we are in for a rough realization there are not enough people to build and maintain our physical world as too many primarily contribute via an online presence. This doesn’t keep the lights on, so-to-speak. Maybe tech will fill the gap for the meat-space, yet labour has fought against automation for decades (centuries?). Might be time to revisit that paradigm.


EDIT: yes, my perspective on the Health Care is from Canada.

[doebedoe]

The meat-space question is interesting to me.

I know more than a handful of people that got degrees at top Ivy or adjacent universities, started white-collar careers in tech/finance/govt and burnt out after 5-10 years. Couple of them are now carpenters. Ones a plumber. Ones a classic car mechanic. Two are nurses/RNs. It seems like it isn't just a burgeoning romanticism of blue collar work, but a recognition from many that it is just as if not more difficult mental labor than a lot of white collar gigs. And the pay is as good or better. Lots of geographic mobility in the trades. From Gen-Zers in my hood I know (one of whom runs a very successful landscaping biz), seems like that generation gets it too.

[Mustonen]

I wrestle a bit with “quiet quitting.” On the one hand, it’s obvious that there is often (usually?) an unequal commitment between employer and employee. But… quiet quitting feels a little bit like lack of effort and disinterest in growth. At least that’s the message that seems to be too often heard/presented.

Example: I have a guy on one of my teams who has some educational background and a stated interest in statistical analysis. He doesn’t need that for the job he has and he doesn’t have any real credentials or experience in it, but when offered the opportunity to spend up to 25% of his time (not overtime, not extra unpaid time) on figuring out how we might apply some of his skillset to adjacent areas of his job, he kicks it back that he isn’t paid to do that. Fair, I guess, but we don’t need him to do that either. No skin off my nose if he’d rather just focus on his job, but if he’s interested in such a thing we literally offered him an opportunity to spend work time on it and see if he can’t carve out a role with a value proposition that he WOULD be paid for and that could kick his career into that direction. And even if it never ended up being something that made sense for us to resource beyond his side-hobby we’d happily support him by formalizing it enough with a title and whatever else so he could add that to his resume.

But no, he’s paid to be a clerk and I guess that’s all he’s interested in doing. He does a good job, but he isn’t setting himself up for any next steps that I can see and that’s frustrating.

By contrast: There’s another guy who has a different clerical role who has an interest in IT. We offered to let him “intern” for a couple months with the IT group at his current rate of pay, his time spent on equal parts training and ticket management such that he can achieve some basic IT certifications (that we’ll pay for) and a chance to move into the IT department full time, at an IT salary, if he’s successful and if we decide we want him on that team. That feels like a good thing, but runs contrary to the anti work movement.

Both are early 20’s. Both have radically different approaches to work. One will double his income within 2-3 years if he maintains his current pace. Sooner if he uses some of his free time to increase the pace of his training using resources we provide (which we aren’t asking him to do).

[neufox47]

The boomers retiring is a major issue in my industry (insurance). Boomers still hold about half the jobs and a significant majority of the highly paid and important ones. The Silent’s stuck around forever, many working well into their 70s or beyond, often died before fully retiring. I don’t think the boomers will do this and will leave the workforce.


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[fastfred]

people are wondering why I'm charging so much
well when you displace housing with investments when people who have no ties to the local economy move in when you buy or build homes that signal your economic accomplishments in life that kinda pushes out all the people who are just working to get by

then people have become absurdly lazy and so many other people don't give a fuck
they rather be social media stars than learn a trade

I call it supply and demand not sure what everyone else learned
there is a huge demand and there is no supply of willing able and/or skilled people to work to get their hands dirty

nothing is going to change anytime soon keep sucking down the high fructose corn syrup high fatty diet pasty white skin and sit inside all day lamenting on the internet that life isn't fair

[californiagrown]

I wrestle a bit with “quiet quitting.” On the one hand, it’s obvious that there is often (usually?) an unequal commitment between employer and employee. But… quiet quitting feels a little bit like lack of effort and disinterest in growth. At least that’s the message that seems to be too often heard/presented.

I am in the middle of the millenial generation and this is similar to my feelings on the anit-work and quiet-quitting, etc movements/fads. I have no problem with my staff doing their job, and nothing more. In fact that makes it really easy to manage them as i dont have to think about their growth, development, keeping them happy with opportunities for advancement, etc. The problem comes with people who are hired with the clear expectation that they will grow into the role/job title, but then show no ambition or motivation to grow beyond their previous level of expertise/workload. There was an explicit agreement that we are hiring them (or promoted them) into a role that is a step up for them, and they need to grow into that role, but instead of putting in the extra effort that it always takes to learn and grow into a new higher role, they do not feel the NEED to succeed. There is a lack of personal responsibility for their own success it seems... a lot of blame shifting which is really off-putting. I had a young staff member say "well that sucks for you" when i informed them that one of their mistakes, that i didnt catch, cost us a significant redesign on our own dime. That kind of attitude seems to be the undercurrent of this movement. They deserve success, and any challenges that come their way are the problem of their superiors who didnt set them up for success well enough.