Official Sprocket Rockets Training Thread

[XtrPickels]

With Critical Power and W' being the cool new metrics, what are people doing to monitor and improve? My gut says that W' development will come from sprint work, 30/30s, etc. but that's based on nothing real. Is there a practical way to monitor W' in realtime during a workout or a race?

A primer on W' for those unfamiliar: https://www.sparksinto.life/post/wha...-work-capacity

When you get to W' and CP, you really need a solid amount of data to have meaningful numbers.

There are Garmin Connect IQ apps that calculate W' real-time. I haven't used them enough to say whether they're valid or useful. This is especially relevant as the recovery rate of W' is not well known for individuals. It's easier to model the expenditure than the recovery. Therefore, the reported W' may be accurate for a single, deep, effort. It may lose accuracy with repeated efforts more akin to real-world riding. (For example, see my 3x 8 min example below. In the second interval I went exactly at 4 minutes of rest, which shows a recovered W' but I was not able to go as deep as on interval #1. For the 3rd effort, I had to pee, so a bit of extra rest time and I was able to go as deep as I had on the first effort. Ultimately, even on the 2nd effort, I should have been able to fully deplete my W' EVEN if it didn't recover; I would have bene depleting it from a lower starting point. In this instance I need to adjust my Tau (Recovery) so that the remaining W' in the 2nd effort is eliminated as it was a maximal effort.)

Anything above CP will be working your W' ability, but 30/30s in my experience, do not fully tax the W' capacity because the limited recovery necessitates a limited expenditure / expenditure duration. You end up with a jagged W' balance that is often ~50% W' capacity.


(Example (10 reps each): Set 1 - 40/20 @130% --- Set 2 30/30 @135% --- set 3 20/40 @145% )

Additionally, true sprint intervals are primarily in the domain of the ATP / Creatine Phosphate (CP) energy system instead of the glycolytic system that drives the W' capacity.

Examples from Running

• 100m Sprinter: Maximum Reliance on ATP / Creatine Phosphate. Likely an OK W' and poor Critical Power, but high peak wattage
• Miler: Maximum Reliance on W' (glycolytic system). High W' - Good CP - OK peak wattage
• Marathoner: Maximum reliance on Aerobic system . High Critical Power -- Poor W' -- Poor Peak Wattage

The durations which are most taxing are likely in the 4 to 8 minute range with full recoveries. Here you can expend quickly, recover, then tax the system fully again. This allows a greater W' expenditure (with multiple efforts) than longer intervals which still expend the same W' capacity, but over a longer period of time. Longer interval workouts become quite long and arduous and ultimately less W' is expended.


(Example: 3x8 min @~110% w/ 4min rest)

However, in my experience, the easiest way to generate a deep W' (that "breaks" your previous best) on a single effort is a 20 minute effort with a solid uptick in intensity at the end. These efforts are long enough that they are fairly pain-free at the beginning, but you can really double down at the end. It's unlikely that you will be able to repeat this effort to the same extent without significant recovery which makes it less effective as a training stimulus.

[bean]

When you get to W' and CP, you really need a solid amount of data to have meaningful numbers.
...

Thanks for the info. Kind of matches my hunch that it is going to be really hard to come up with anything useful, given so many different factors - not just person to person but even day to day for the same person. Next question given all that, is it something worth trying to track and improve, or is it not a mature enough metric yet?

[Tailwind]

Is there any conventional wisdom for if it's better to train in hotter or cooler parts of the day?

I recently moved to the desert and I've done a few 3-4 hour rides in around 90-100 degree heat to try to acclimate to the heat slightly. This of course, feels pretty hard and I'm substantially slower.

I'm trying for a few 100 mile MTB races and one day long efforts this year. I've typically struggled with cramping in warm temps so part of me has thought some warm training rides might be beneficial. I do kinda feel like shit the next day even if I'm extra intentional about rehydrating so that has me wondering if I should go back to only early morning rides.

P.S. I know there are some safety concerns here with warm temps and the desert. I'm sticking close to bail outs and hauling silly amounts of water.

[climberevan]

Heat acclimation is definitely a thing, so you'll benefit from gradually getting yourself used to it. I think you need to really ease into it though--start with shorter rides. I pretty much melt beyond 90 deg, but it is easier by the end of the summer. If I'm not used to heat and try to do a hard ride, it steals at least 20W.

[XtrPickels]

Thanks for the info. Kind of matches my hunch that it is going to be really hard to come up with anything useful, given so many different factors - not just person to person but even day to day for the same person. Next question given all that, is it something worth trying to track and improve, or is it not a mature enough metric yet?

I think it's worthwhile.

The caveat is just that you need to have a large amount of power data. For example, if you regularly mountain bike but only have power on your road bike, you will not be getting the full depth of information that you otherwise could have. The limited # of road rides may give artificially skewed #'s.

At the moment, I haven't done many maximal efforts across a range of intensities, so my W' and CP values are all funky. If I didn't have years of data I wouldn't know they were funky and I'd think I had a decent CP but terrible W' (which is the opposite of the truth).

[XtrPickels]

Heat acclimation is definitely a thing, so you'll benefit from gradually getting yourself used to it. I think you need to really ease into it though--start with shorter rides. I pretty much melt beyond 90 deg, but it is easier by the end of the summer. If I'm not used to heat and try to do a hard ride, it steals at least 20W.

Echo'ing this.

Heat acclimation is real; your perception changes (effects less), your sweat composition changes (less sodium), your blood volume increases.
There are performance benefits of acclimation that cause performance benefits in all temperatures.

If you need to compete in the heat, you need to train in the heat.
Just remember that the point is not to drive yourself to exhaustion. "I feel so tired and hot, this must be working, I need to keep pushing" isn't the correct mindset.

Weigh yourself before and after a ride, add the weight of the fluids you drank. This is your sweat rate.

Try to keep your loss to no more than 2% for best performance.
Try to keep it less than 5% to stay safe

Reference:
https://www.mysportscience.com/post/...h-do-you-sweat
I'll have an episode on June 23rd discussing this on the Fast Talk Podcast.

[Dantheman]

Is there any conventional wisdom for if it's better to train in hotter or cooler parts of the day?

I recently moved to the desert and I've done a few 3-4 hour rides in around 90-100 degree heat to try to acclimate to the heat slightly. This of course, feels pretty hard and I'm substantially slower.

I'm trying for a few 100 mile MTB races and one day long efforts this year. I've typically struggled with cramping in warm temps so part of me has thought some warm training rides might be beneficial. I do kinda feel like shit the next day even if I'm extra intentional about rehydrating so that has me wondering if I should go back to only early morning rides.

P.S. I know there are some safety concerns here with warm temps and the desert. I'm sticking close to bail outs and hauling silly amounts of water.

My understanding is that it depends on your goals and is akin to training at altitude. Heat and altitude both will reduce the quality of your workouts, so if your goal is maximum fitness gainz you should ride cool/low. But, if you are going to ride events that are hot/high you need to ride in those conditions to drive the adaptations for those conditions. When you do your hot rides keep the intensity down so you aren't burning the candle at both ends, and maybe keep the duration down and do your long efforts in cooler temps. Also, keep in mind that air temp isn't the only consideration--spinning flat miles at 95* at 7:00 pm in the shade is a lot different than climbing a 10% grade at 95* in mid-day sun.

Don't pull a Cody, either. Be super conscious of how you're feeling and shut it right down if you start feeling the slightest inclination that you're entering true heat exhaustion/stroke. Also, many conventional wisdom strategies for cooling yourself are dead wrong. Ice packs on the back of the neck are particularly ineffective and actually counterproductive. The best way to cool yourself is to place the palms of your hands and soles of your feet in cool (not cold) water. Your palms and soles are packed with special blood vessels called arterio-venous anastomoses that are extremely effective at transferring heat (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4861183/). Cool water (>60* F) is best because cold water causes vasoconstriction which inhibits blood flow and heat transfer. Listen to this interview and prepare to have you mind blown wide open: https://hubermanlab.com/dr-craig-hel...d-body-health/

[Dantheman]

Echo'ing this.

Heat acclimation is real; your perception changes (effects less), your sweat composition changes (less sodium), your blood volume increases.
There are performance benefits of acclimation that cause performance benefits in all temperatures.

If you need to compete in the heat, you need to train in the heat.
Just remember that the point is not to drive yourself to exhaustion. "I feel so tired and hot, this must be working, I need to keep pushing" isn't the correct mindset.

Weigh yourself before and after a ride, add the weight of the fluids you drank. This is your sweat rate.

Try to keep your loss to no more than 2% for best performance.
Try to keep it less than 5% to stay safe

Reference:
https://www.mysportscience.com/post/...h-do-you-sweat
I'll have an episode on June 23rd discussing this on the Fast Talk Podcast.

Are you familiar with Craig Heller's work? Some of the results he has reported are almost unbelievable and I'd love to hear your take.

[Tailwind]

Great thoughts everyone.

My main goal is to build my base fitness as my flaw with long races is that I tend to cramp up about mile 70-80. This is probably being a little undertrained and going out harder than I should. I can typically keep up with people through this point then loose some time. The goal is to get on a NUE podium this year, I've cracked the top ten a few times but looking to make a little step.

I've been doing interval workouts typically in cooler temps but a few hot rides to acclimate which is sounds like is good in moderation. I'm hopeful that some hot days will help the back half of endurance races in more moderate temps.

Echo'ing this.

Heat acclimation is real; your perception changes (effects less), your sweat composition changes (less sodium), your blood volume increases.
There are performance benefits of acclimation that cause performance benefits in all temperatures.

If you need to compete in the heat, you need to train in the heat.
Just remember that the point is not to drive yourself to exhaustion. "I feel so tired and hot, this must be working, I need to keep pushing" isn't the correct mindset.

Weigh yourself before and after a ride, add the weight of the fluids you drank. This is your sweat rate.

Try to keep your loss to no more than 2% for best performance.
Try to keep it less than 5% to stay safe

Reference:
https://www.mysportscience.com/post/...h-do-you-sweat
I'll have an episode on June 23rd discussing this on the Fast Talk Podcast.

[XtrPickels]

My understanding is that it depends on your goals and is akin to training at altitude. Heat and altitude both will reduce the quality of your workouts, so if your goal is maximum fitness gainz you should ride cool/low.

Dan is spot on here and I'm glad he made the point.
Heat adaptations do not require you to ride hard.

If the goal of the ride is to adapt to the heat, then take it easy but spend time in hot weather.
If the goal of the ride is to crush intervals, make sure the conditions are conducive to that.

[XtrPickels]

Are you familiar with Craig Heller's work? Some of the results he has reported are almost unbelievable and I'd love to hear your take.

He's done a lot of core temperature / palm cooling work, right?
I can go back and look more deeply.

Let me know if there was a different topic.

[Dantheman]

Yeah, he's reported some stunning performance improvements using palmar cooling. For instance, former 49ers TE Greg Clark used his techniques and tripled the number dips he could do in a workout (100 to 300 ). He's repeated those results multiple times with different groups of athletes and supposedly his products and techniques are becoming widely adopted by pro teams and D1 programs. That Huberman interview I linked to provides a pretty thorough synopsis of his work.

[EWG]

Dan is spot on here and I'm glad he made the point.
Heat adaptations do not require you to ride hard.

If the goal of the ride is to adapt to the heat, then take it easy but spend time in hot weather.
If the goal of the ride is to crush intervals, make sure the conditions are conducive to that.

I had originally typed out a similar response to all of yours saying that you should train in the conditions you are going to race in for acclimatization, but then I reread his post and thought I understood that his events wouldn’t be hot, just the training. So I deleted the post.

This post quoted above matters. You should train in the best conditions possible for best results, then only enough at your event climate (temp, altitude, water intake, etc) that your body is efficient in those conditions.

[Dantheman]

Theoretically, breathing nose-only should be beneficial in the heat. It will keep you at a lower intensity and it reduces respiratory water loss by almost 50% IIRC. I feel like it helps me but I have no data to back it up.

[fool]

Now that I've been binged a bunch of Huberman this summer - thanks for the intro DTM - I was curious: what are the collective's thoughts/evidence on green powders like Athletic Greens? Huberman - in addition to Rich Roll, Tim Ferris, etc. - have all said on their shows (ads), that if they only took one supplement, it would be Athletic Greens. I haven't found much in terms of good scientific backing (I did find this one though), but I would like to think Huberman wouldn't endorse something so strongly just because they paid him, but maybe that's naive optimism. Additionally, Athletic Greens is expensive, but it looks like there are similar competing brands like Amazing Grass, Orgain Organic Superfoods, Jocko Greens, etc., so thoughts on cheaper competitors?

I understand that in an ideal scenario one would eat a perfect diet that has all the veggies/fiber/macro/micros one needs, but given that challenge, still curious on the green powders. Thanks.

[XtrPickels]

Now that I've been binged a bunch of Huberman this summer - thanks for the intro DTM - I was curious: what are the collective's thoughts/evidence on green powders like Athletic Greens? Huberman - in addition to Rich Roll, Tim Ferris, etc. - have all said on their shows (ads), that if they only took one supplement, it would be Athletic Greens. I haven't found much in terms of good scientific backing (I did find this one though), but I would like to think Huberman wouldn't endorse something so strongly just because they paid him, but maybe that's naive optimism. Additionally, Athletic Greens is expensive, but it looks like there are similar competing brands like Amazing Grass, Orgain Organic Superfoods, Jocko Greens, etc., so thoughts on cheaper competitors?

I understand that in an ideal scenario one would eat a perfect diet that has all the veggies/fiber/macro/micros one needs, but given that challenge, still curious on the green powders. Thanks.

Athletic greens has such a marketing push that Cletus McFarland and Heavy D Sparks are pushing the product.

I doubt you’d see a reliable change in health or performance.

The best are fruits and vegetables. Homemade Smoothies are great and relatively inexpensive.

Anyone making content is making money off their brand.
I take everything anyone says with a grain of salt. You get more views off telling one side of the controversial than you do a balanced conversation of the well understood.

[XtrPickels]

Athletic greens has such a marketing push that Cletus McFarland and Heavy D Sparks are pushing the product.

I doubt you’d see a reliable change in health or performance.

The best are fruits and vegetables. Homemade Smoothies are great and relatively inexpensive.

Anyone making content is making money off their brand.
I take everything anyone says with a grain of salt. You get more views off telling one side of the controversial than you do a balanced conversation of the well understood.

Just to follow up here because I was thinking about what I wrote this weekend while riding and wanted to clarify more.

I listen to Huberman a moderate amount (Not every episode, but interesting topics).

Most recently I listened to the memory episode where emotional state / neurotransmitters affect memory / recall and methods to influence. What struck me was that he only said vague terms like "improved performance" and "better" but he never actually reported the results of the studies.

Possible options
1. He didn't think the results were worthwhile to the audience.
2. He didn't have access to them (only read the abstract)
3. They were not remarkable

I could not find the Cahill / McGaugh article that was heavily referenced on open-access to check the results. I did, however, find a similar follow-up study by the same author. I am using this as a proxy, but understand I am making a leap by not commenting on the original research referenced.

This study showed a ~5% improvement in story recall following a 5 minute break for the "emotionally charged" passage, which equates to getting 1 more answer correct. Additionally, the emotionally charged passage resulted in 10% DROP in recall for later passages. Ie the subjects were focused on the emotional passage and forgot what came after.

And this is my issue: Huberman is not saying anything untrue. His episodes are super-interesting and thought provoking. However, he is likely amping up the narrative that supports his sensational position because it makes for better content. Which is why I don't suggest NOT listening, but to take everything with a grain of salt.

[climberevan]

Thanks for the follow up. Many times I've heard real scientists complain that the popular media jumps on marginal or questionable, or even preliminary conclusions, especially if it makes for a good story. Huberman isn't USA Today, but he does have a podcast to produce regularly, after all.

Real science is slow and often not exciting. (Except for the James Webb images--holy shit.)

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Crazy story: last weekend, I'm on my most routine gravel route (and likely totally checked out mentally as a result of my familiarity with the ride) and took a fall off the side of a FS road, went into a downed tree, and a branch cut halfway to three-quarters into my quad. Fortunately, thee was zero joint/bone/artery damage so I’ll be able to ride again in 3-5 weeks.

Question - I'm assuming I'll add more weight/gym work all fall to regain strength, and I'll just keep it around z2 heart rate for the first week(s) back before adding intensity. But is there anything else to keep in mind when it comes to getting bike fitness back? If there are any books/podcasts/papers to read I'm all about it as I've got some time on my hands.

Also, if you don't have an inReach device but ride places without cell service, holy crap I can't recommend them enough. It must have saved SAR countless hours/resources.

[XtrPickels]

Crazy story: last weekend, I'm on my most routine 30-mile/2 hour gravel route (and likely totally checked out mentally as a result of my familiarity with the ride) and took a fall at about 15mph off the side of a FS road, went into a downed tree, and a branch cut halfway to three-quarters into my quad. Fortunately, thee was zero joint/bone/artery damage so I’ll be able to ride again in 3-4 weeks.

Question - I'm assuming I'll add more weight/gym work all fall to regain strength, and I'll just keep it around z2 heart rate for the first week(s) back before adding intensity. But is there anything else to keep in mind when it comes to getting bike fitness back? If there are any books/podcasts/papers to read I'm all about it as I've got some time on my hands.

Also, if you don't have an inReach device but ride places without cell service, holy crap I can't recommend them enough. It must have saved SAR countless hours/resources.

Regarding the injury: Sorry to hear it! I seem to get the worst injuries when I'm doing something trivial. I put my collarbone into 5 pieces on a day I was "taking it easy". Riding partner washed out his front tire and speared completely through the knee-pad he almost didn't wear on a broken root facing UP the trail on a day that we were going to "take it easy".

Regarding training: How bad is it? Did you get it looked at and sewn back together? If everything is OK medically, pain will likely guide your effort. Do what you can; it'll heal. If it's achy during activity, that's likely fine. If it's painful for days after, you likely did too much. When pedaling feels OK, then I would add strength.

Regarding the inReach: I pretty much take mine on every ride at this point. I came across an emergency (that you can hear about on an upcoming podcast episode) and used it to communicate with my wife about why I was delayed for so long.

[climberevan]

Jeez, KTO, that sounds horrible but lucky it wasn't worse, I guess... I don't have any specific advice, but I'll certainly echo the inReach use. Mine is frustratingly slow to find satellites and send messages, but it's still a lot better than just being in the middle of nowhere with no hope of rescue.

[kathleenturneroverdrive]

Regarding training: How bad is it? Did you get it looked at and sewn back together? If everything is OK medically, pain will likely guide your effort. Do what you can; it'll heal. If it's achy during activity, that's likely fine. If it's painful for days after, you likely did too much. When pedaling feels OK, then I would add strength.

That all sounds really smart. I did have to have surgery to clean it out, but no stitches. Docs have been consistent stitches are bad for my type of giant ass hole in my leg LOL. I'll get a huge scar without them, but no big deal on that front. All in all, it's kind of shocking I could see my femur last Sunday, but I'll be back on the bike in a few weeks...but so far, so good.

Training-wise, I'm guessing September will be strength training/getting back on the bike. If I feel good enough for hard efforts, great, but either way, I'll just start a typical off-season plan later in the month (with a newly reduced FTP). And thanks again for the recommendations from our email exchange - once I'm up and running, I'm going to do some testing via your buddy, then plans/oversight from the company you suggested. Of course, before then, if there are some good tips for injury recovery, I'm all for it too.

Jeez, KTO, that sounds horrible but lucky it wasn't worse, I guess...

Totally. For an unlucky situation, I'm about as lucky as it gets the branch only cut through muscle and did so in a vertical fashion (I guess horizontal cuts are harder to heal).

And I couldn't agree more on the inReach. I used to only bring it on rides without cell service, but I think I'll just bring it all the time now.

[Dantheman]

Most recently I listened to the memory episode where emotional state / neurotransmitters affect memory / recall and methods to influence. What struck me was that he only said vague terms like "improved performance" and "better" but he never actually reported the results of the studies.

Possible options
1. He didn't think the results were worthwhile to the audience.
2. He didn't have access to them (only read the abstract)
3. They were not remarkable

#2 seems unlikely. As a faculty member at Stanford surely he has full access to every journal database imaginable and only reading abstracts is something he chides people about on a regular basis. 4th and 5th possibilities are that the original reference had different results, and that he simply made a mistake (he is human after all). IDK, while I certainly don't take everything he says as gospel, most of the time I feel like Huberman goes out of his way to avoid sensational positions.

Back to AG. I don't use them or similar products and I think you're better off eating actual veggies and fruit. Besides the nutritional aspect of vegetables, I think it's important to eat foods that require lots of chewing. IMO, chewing is an underappreciated component of general health. Chewing has a huge impact on maxillofacial musculoskeletal development (particularly in kids but also adults, bone is living tissue and more malleable than we realize, the jaw especially so), which in turn has a huge influence on the ability to nasal breathe, and nasal breathing has major impacts on overall health (primarily due to nitric oxide production in the sinuses and reduced risk of obstructive sleep apnea). I'm actually a bit anti-smoothie for the same reason. Chewing: It's lifting, for your face.*

That said, eating 5-7 servings of veg/fruit per day isn't cheap either nor is it always practical. So, powdered veggies can have their place, especially for people who don't/won't eat veggies otherwise. Given the huge amount of money AG spends on marketing they simply must be a high-margin product and you could probably find much cheaper alternatives. Those alternatives won't have all the extracts and other "special sauce" add-ins, but those parts of AG probably have dubious health value. Also, since these are "supplements" you should do all you can to confirm that cheaper products actually contain what's on the label. With AG you're paying a premium for that assurance, but they're undoubtedly sourcing the powdered veggies from some bulk supplier and it should be possible to cut out the middle man somehow.


* - That Jawzrsize guy can fuck right right off, though.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Bumping this up. Finally feeling like I can get back to structured training. Hopefully getting back into the gym a couple times a week for weight training and 3-4 gravel/indoor rides per week.

Whoop?

Is it a bunch of hype or actually a useful device?

[s_squatch]

Bumping this up. Finally feeling like I can get back to structured training. Hopefully getting back into the gym a couple times a week for weight training and 3-4 gravel/indoor rides per week.

Whoop?

Is it a bunch of hype or actually a useful device?

I got one as a gift ~2 years ago, wore it for a bit and found the HR readings to be pretty inaccurate for me while exercising. stopped wearing it after our kid was born premature and in the 5th percentile for weight and it was consistently telling me I was getting 8 hours of sleep and that my recovery was great. yeah, no effing way that was true. Maybe it's just me and I have weird shaped wrists or something.