Gravel/Bikepack nerds enter...

[possum]

Anyone have experience with or opinion on the REI CO-OP Adv 2.3 bike?

[Peruvian]

biggins and I had a fun weekend at a relatively leisurely pace with plenty of stops for burgers, fries, sammies, and creemees. Almost 85 miles and 7500’ vert. Non-mag RG came along and we camped at another non-mag friend’s place.

[Doremite]

Nice work!!

[Supermoon]

Anyone have experience with or opinion on the REI CO-OP Adv 2.3 bike?

I had a 2.2 for a hot minute but only cause I couldn’t get a 2.3. I think for the money you get a fair bit. Obviously not the lightest bike around, but comfortable and decently spec’d.

I didn’t like it as much as my Journeyman, but that could have just been because I went from 650b to 700c

[Peruvian]

Anyone have experience with or opinion on the REI CO-OP Adv 2.3 bike?

I don’t know who makes that bike, but for $2400 you are in the range of a Trek Checkpoint, Giant Revolt, Jamis Renegade, and a number of steel Kona or All City bikes.

[CantDog]

Nice work guys! Saw you post the route on strava and looked good.

[alev]

^Would love to see the route if you can share here! Planning another multi-day ride myself soon through VT-->NY

[possum]

I don’t know who makes that bike, but for $2400 you are in the range of a Trek Checkpoint, Giant Revolt, Jamis Renegade, and a number of steel Kona or All City bikes.

Yeah, except I ordered over the weekend so extra 10% dividend and another 5% with REI Mastercard, so I get like $600 REI bucks back. My local stores don't have them in stock so it has to ship to store anyway, I'll check it out there and decide whether to keep or not. At least they are in stock. Was considering a Canyon, but they are like a 6+ month wait.
Friend recommended OBED Boundary, but I've never heard of them before.

I have a very nice mountain bike, so somewhat less concerned about weight.

[Peruvian]

^Would love to see the route if you can share here! Planning another multi-day ride myself soon through VT-->NY

PM sent

[Phall]

That's a pretty solid build! Not an amazing frame, but with that $600 REI money back you can invest in converting it to tubeless, bags, accessories, etc.

[possum]

That's a pretty solid build! Not an amazing frame, but with that $600 REI money back you can invest in converting it to tubeless, bags, accessories, etc.

Yep, my thoughts as well. If I like the fit, I'm going to go ahead and convert to tubeless before I leave the store.

[biggins]

biggins and I had a fun weekend at a relatively leisurely pace

Also known as my push pace.


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[Peruvian]

Lael getting flack once again for being filmed while cycling

So what's the reasoning that the 'official' rules don't allow media? This obsession with going it alone without contact of any sort (big difference between a food cache, mech support, and just saying 'hi' in my opinion) is sort of silly to me.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

Lael getting flack once again for being filmed while cycling

So what's the reasoning that the 'official' rules don't allow media? This obsession with going it alone without contact of any sort (big difference between a food cache, mech support, and just saying 'hi' in my opinion) is sort of silly to me.

Haters are gonna hate. Lael is a phenom and has a raw talent that almost no one on the planet has. She goes out and crushes and does it very nonchalantly with a smile on her face. 9/10 ultra light endurance bro dentists do not recommend her.

[Iowagriz]

#1reason for the AZT is impact and keeping users down. They already have a 75 person limit for the race version. Add that it is every popular hiking trail and problems exist.

No doubt that she is good, but her rule excuses ring hollow. When she tried to beat Mike Halls record on the TD a year or two ago by ITT, she ignored a BC Parks trail closure just so she could ride the old route. Again, very talented, but ignores set rules for fame.

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[Peruvian]

#1reason for the AZT is impact and keeping users down. They already have a 75 person limit for the race version. Add that it is every popular hiking trail and problems exist.

This rings hollow when the AZT links to Lael's efforts on their own website - https://aztrail.org/category/in-the-news/ Besides, how does John Schilling limit the field of an unorganized and unsanctioned event? It seems pretty difficult to enforce rules of an 'unofficial' race, so it's really a public opinion issue.

[Supermoon]

Riding a closed trail is one thing, but if you want to make a living doing these types of sports you HAVE to promote yourself on social media. Your followers are your paycheck, unfortunately.

If you’re not made at Cody for the 50 project, you shouldn’t be mad at Laell either. Same thing.

[smmokan]

#1reason for the AZT is impact and keeping users down. They already have a 75 person limit for the race version. Add that it is every popular hiking trail and problems exist.

No doubt that she is good, but her rule excuses ring hollow. When she tried to beat Mike Halls record on the TD a year or two ago by ITT, she ignored a BC Parks trail closure just so she could ride the old route. Again, very talented, but ignores set rules for fame.

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I thought it had more to do with the perceived mental benefit of riding with a crew vs riding alone for several days.

[Iowagriz]

Well, that as well. And, in my opinion, that is not perceived by real.

I haven't watched the movie they released, but online talk is of her using the water water caches which is also discouraged.

If you really want to get into the meat of the discussion and why longtime racers/bikepackers have a problem with this attempt, go to the bikepacking.net forums

(Not directed back to you smmoken, but in general)

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[Dee Hubbs]

Built up a LIV Brava Advanced Pro (Giant TCX) for a client that is doing a gravel race later this summer.
This Cyclocross bike was all that was in stock in her size, so she ordered it.
I replaced the 33c Maxxis Terrence with some 38 Terravail Cannonballs.
Replaced the 10-33, and 33T AXS RD with the SRAM AXS XPLR 10-44 cassette, and XPLR 44T Rear Derailleur and needed a new Flattop Chain to wrap the bigger cassette.
I think it going to be a good bike for her, she is use to the steep geo of an XC race bike.

[chaka]

Cross post. For Sale FSA K-Wing AGX carbon drop bar size 44. Sethschmautz has dibs if interested from previous thread...

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...op-bar-size-44

[sethschmautz]

Cross post. For Sale FSA K-Wing AGX carbon drop bar size 44. Sethschmautz has dibs if interested from previous thread...

https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...op-bar-size-44

You remembered! Thanks!

Let me give this some really serious thought tonight.

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[evdog]

Lael getting flack once again for being filmed while cycling

So what's the reasoning that the 'official' rules don't allow media? This obsession with going it alone without contact of any sort (big difference between a food cache, mech support, and just saying 'hi' in my opinion) is sort of silly to me.

The rules don't prohibit media. You can self document the race all you want. Or a neutral media team could cover the race with the race director's approval. What isn't allowed is a camera/film team dedicated to following one racer the entire race.

Similarly, visitation by spectators (friends, family, fans) is allowed in limited amounts if they live near the route. No reason you can't say hi to anyone. But excessive visitation, basically someone following the racer and meeting up at many places along the route, is not allowed.

In both of these cases race is trying to avoid having a bunch of extra people running around all over AZ meeting up with racers to spectate, cheer them on or documenting their race. That's partly because having a bunch of extra people out there can bring negative attention to the race. And partly because it can give a racer a mental boost. Racers who are locals could have way more visitors than someone who comes to race from far away. Then there's the argument that knowing you have friends/family or a media crew in the area is a safety net that might motivate you to push on or take risks you wouldn't take if there was no one to bail you out if you get into trouble. Or when you're dead tired and at a low point, knowing they'll meet you up ahead could be enough motivation to keep going when you might otherwise quit the race. Races like these have a huge mental component so if you have visitors or a media team all along the route but others do not, that can provide an advantage. In Lael's case she had both of these...a media team meeting her a couple times a day all along the route, that included her wife and a friend.

AZTR rules are meant to provide level playing field for racers and also protect the future of the race by preventing behavior that negatively affects the trail and other trail users. If you don't want to abide by those rules, then don't sign up for the race. The AZTR route is open to the public 365 days a year and you can ride it on your own however you want.

This rings hollow when the AZT links to Lael's efforts on their own website - https://aztrail.org/category/in-the-news/ Besides, how does John Schilling limit the field of an unorganized and unsanctioned event? It seems pretty difficult to enforce rules of an 'unofficial' race, so it's really a public opinion issue.

The ATA (AZ Trail Association) has nothing to do with organizing the AZTR race. They are supportive of the race provided it is run in a way that doesn't negatively affect the trail or other trail users. Same with any other event.

The Forest Service requires an event permit if you have 75 or more participants. To avoid that red tape a lot of bikepacking events are capped at 74 racers for a grand depart. Race tracking is done on Trackleaders.com which limits signups to 74 for grand depart. After that you can sign up to start on other days as that doesn't count toward the limit. That's easy to enforce. The other rules less so. That doesn't make them a matter of public opinion though. Racers are expected to know and follow the rules. Lael said she wasn't aware of the media rule. Giving her the benefit of the doubt, she was still approached by the race director around mile 300 and told if the media team continued she'd get the asterisk. 300 miles over 3 days was already stretching the visitation rule. Lael and team decided to continue anyways. Whether you like the rule or not, that's pretty cut and dried to me.

Riding a closed trail is one thing, but if you want to make a living doing these types of sports you HAVE to promote yourself on social media. Your followers are your paycheck, unfortunately.

If you’re not made at Cody for the 50 project, you shouldn’t be mad at Laell either. Same thing.

Not the same thing at all. Lael entered a race. That race had rules. Lael broke the rules. Lael got an asterisk as a result. No one is mad at Lael. Everyone agreed it was an inspiring race run. Lael can still claim an FKT on the AZTR route which is what she should have done (along with not entering the race to begin with). She just isn't being given credit for having the unsupported FKT for the AZTR race. Yeah there's some nuance there, and it went right over the head of her entire fanbase in their rush to pile on the race director.

The self-supported race FKT is basically what she and the Radavist claimed on social media by virtue of omission when they announced her FKT as a historic achievement. Their followers mostly wouldn't know the difference between route/race and supported/unsupported and neither Radavist or Lael bothered to explain it to them then, or any point later on. Instead, when the race director posted on IG to clarify the result, dude from the Radavist responded by linking to that post and stirring up an internet mob with a message that basically said Lael got screwed. Below his "reportage" in the comments he and one of the photographers accused the race director of gatekeeping, gender bias, "he's out to get her" etc. Within a few days there were hundreds of commenters piling on the race director, many of whom parroted those claims. All of that over an asterisk. Naturally another thing that wasn't explained to Lael fans was that asterisks are given out often for things like missing sections of the route, or accepting outside support etc. along with an explanation. This is to ensure transparency in the results. A lot can happen in 800 miles.

Speaking of 800 miles, the most amusing part of this whole fiasco is Lael and the Radavist not pointing out to Lael's fanbase that they are fawning over a FKT set in an event that is only a year old that only has 15 documented finishers so far (AZTR 800 route was new for 2021). That's not to say it wasn't an impressive ride - it definitely was. But if you compare it to ATZR750 results for 2019 and earlier you can tell this FKT isn't going to stand for very long, asterisk or not. The FKT for the 750 is 6 days, 6 hours, 6 minutes. Guess Lael was too busy playing the victim card in interviews and the Radavist too busy bragging about journalistic integrity to notice that omission. Or maybe it wouldn't be so good for self promotion to point out that you're time was only faster than 15 people?

[Peruvian]

The rules don't prohibit media. You can self document the race all you want. Or a neutral media team could cover the race with the race director's approval. What isn't allowed is a camera/film team dedicated to following one racer the entire race.

Similarly, visitation by spectators (friends, family, fans) is allowed in limited amounts if they live near the route. No reason you can't say hi to anyone. But excessive visitation, basically someone following the racer and meeting up at many places along the route, is not allowed.

In both of these cases race is trying to avoid having a bunch of extra people running around all over AZ meeting up with racers to spectate, cheer them on or documenting their race. That's partly because having a bunch of extra people out there can bring negative attention to the race. And partly because it can give a racer a mental boost. Racers who are locals could have way more visitors than someone who comes to race from far away. Then there's the argument that knowing you have friends/family or a media crew in the area is a safety net that might motivate you to push on or take risks you wouldn't take if there was no one to bail you out if you get into trouble. Or when you're dead tired and at a low point, knowing they'll meet you up ahead could be enough motivation to keep going when you might otherwise quit the race. Races like these have a huge mental component so if you have visitors or a media team all along the route but others do not, that can provide an advantage. In Lael's case she had both of these...a media team meeting her a couple times a day all along the route, that included her wife and a friend.

AZTR rules are meant to provide level playing field for racers and also protect the future of the race by preventing behavior that negatively affects the trail and other trail users. If you don't want to abide by those rules, then don't sign up for the race. The AZTR route is open to the public 365 days a year and you can ride it on your own however you want.


The ATA (AZ Trail Association) has nothing to do with organizing the AZTR race. They are supportive of the race provided it is run in a way that doesn't negatively affect the trail or other trail users. Same with any other event.

The Forest Service requires an event permit if you have 75 or more participants. To avoid that red tape a lot of bikepacking events are capped at 74 racers for a grand depart. Race tracking is done on Trackleaders.com which limits signups to 74 for grand depart. After that you can sign up to start on other days as that doesn't count toward the limit. That's easy to enforce. The other rules less so. That doesn't make them a matter of public opinion though. Racers are expected to know and follow the rules. Lael said she wasn't aware of the media rule. Giving her the benefit of the doubt, she was still approached by the race director around mile 300 and told if the media team continued she'd get the asterisk. 300 miles over 3 days was already stretching the visitation rule. Lael and team decided to continue anyways. Whether you like the rule or not, that's pretty cut and dried to me.


Not the same thing at all. Lael entered a race. That race had rules. Lael broke the rules. Lael got an asterisk as a result. No one is mad at Lael. Everyone agreed it was an inspiring race run. Lael can still claim an FKT on the AZTR route which is what she should have done (along with not entering the race to begin with). She just isn't being given credit for having the unsupported FKT for the AZTR race. Yeah there's some nuance there, and it went right over the head of her entire fanbase in their rush to pile on the race director.

The self-supported race FKT is basically what she and the Radavist claimed on social media by virtue of omission when they announced her FKT as a historic achievement. Their followers mostly wouldn't know the difference between route/race and supported/unsupported and neither Radavist or Lael bothered to explain it to them then, or any point later on. Instead, when the race director posted on IG to clarify the result, dude from the Radavist responded by linking to that post and stirring up an internet mob with a message that basically said Lael got screwed. Below his "reportage" in the comments he and one of the photographers accused the race director of gatekeeping, gender bias, "he's out to get her" etc. Within a few days there were hundreds of commenters piling on the race director, many of whom parroted those claims. All of that over an asterisk. Naturally another thing that wasn't explained to Lael fans was that asterisks are given out often for things like missing sections of the route, or accepting outside support etc. along with an explanation. This is to ensure transparency in the results. A lot can happen in 800 miles.

Speaking of 800 miles, the most amusing part of this whole fiasco is Lael and the Radavist not pointing out to Lael's fanbase that they are fawning over a FKT set in an event that is only a year old that only has 15 documented finishers so far (AZTR 800 route was new for 2021). That's not to say it wasn't an impressive ride - it definitely was. But if you compare it to ATZR750 results for 2019 and earlier you can tell this FKT isn't going to stand for very long, asterisk or not. The FKT for the 750 is 6 days, 6 hours, 6 minutes. Guess Lael was too busy playing the victim card in interviews and the Radavist too busy bragging about journalistic integrity to notice that omission. Or maybe it wouldn't be so good for self promotion to point out that you're time was only faster than 15 people?

Okay, so I understand the thought process about 'media' being considered 'support' but have to say it's sort of silly IMHO. Is there a bikepacking endurance race that has been thwarted by someone doing an ITT with 'media'? Most trail groups (not race organizers) are happy to have media coverage about their trail as more users often means more financial and volunteer support. Yes there is a breaking point where users can outweigh support, but it's not like the AMC or Green Mountain Club (2 long distance trail groups for very highly used trails) are trying to shut down use.

The discussion regarding the USFS rules and the grand depart has nothing to do with Lael's attempt. She wasn't part of the GD, so it's a moot point.

As for the Radavist reporting, their original article was dated 4/22/22 and by 4/23 they had updated it with the asterisk.

For me, I want to see what it takes to suffer through 800+ miles of bikepacking in such a short time. Without 'media' that's a total myster. Further at the end of the day, I'm just more interested in someone like Lael 'racing' and attempting FKT than some former UCI pro roadie who wins a one day gravel race.

[Supermoon]

I don’t know enough about the intricacies of any of it, but it all smacks of “the ick” when a whole bunch of agro dudes pile on a woman with asterisks and weird what-if scenarios as soon as she wins an event. Using a water cache is “frowned upon” but not illegal? Who cares. It’s either legal or not in a race.

Too much douchey gatekeeping in these sports for my taste. You’re riding a bike. Who cares.