To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[AK47bp]

@ Hopeless Sinner, I'm not even an amateur dentist on this stuff, but it's my understanding that zoonotic transmission of this type of respiratory disease (assuming it gets by all of the biological barriers i.e. will it find the right protein(s) in the new host, etc) tends to be due to close contact with captive live animals. So I can't say I'm too concerned about deer.

Now if it were dogs and cats, we'd be doomed.

Dogs and cats? We’re fucked.




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[old goat]

please don't cite the NYTimes article.

I have read part way through the PBS NewsHour conversation, and for now, I will stand by my claim. ( A coronavirus in deer is cross-reactive on the covid test. )

This seems far more historically consistent than deer becoming a reservoir for covid
( the samples were from deer being tested for CWD, And a captive herd )

for now, I will leave it at that.
( I will come back and link the PBS conversation )

tj

Do I have your permission to cite the preprint linked in the NYT article? https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...02.04.479189v1
If that's not OK let me know and I'll delete it.

^right? We have a critical mass of people breaking 6ft social distancing proximity with respect to deer? I mean, come on. People just want to find some edge-case 'what if' scenario so they can undermine doing anything and position our fate as 'unavoidable'.

Direct respiratory contact--breathing the same air for 15 minutes--isn't the only way respiratory viruses are transmitteed.
As far as whether covid in deer pose any threat to humans (or to the deer population and their predators)--who the hell knows? For now consider it an interesting finding.
Like the findings that NY wastewater has Covid variants that have never been found in people.

[SumJongGuy]

A number of people, including anonymous commentators on Reddit and columnists at the Los Angeles Times, even engage in open schadenfreude when anti-vaxxers die from COVID. This is wrong. We owe every victim of this pandemic compassion, whatever risk they may have chosen to incur.

Wait a second here, does the author read the TGR Padded Room?



https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...ctions/621627/

Just like we owe compassion to the Kamakazis who bombed Pearl Harbor and the WTC. They were just doing what they believed was right and righteous FOR THEM. Nevermind the collateral damage they were told was likely from their behavior. amirite??

[The AD]

Just like we owe compassion to the Kamakazis who bombed Pearl Harbor and the WTC. They were just doing what they believed was right and righteous FOR THEM. Nevermind the collateral damage they were told was likely from their behavior. amirite??

Or Jim Jones.

Sorry, the people eliciting the schadenfreude are people who had actively campaigned against getting vaccinated. They contributed to the deaths of many people by their actions and I've got zero shits to give if they also die.

[Ted Striker]

There were at least two documented cases in this area early on of family pets being diagnosed positive when the rest of the family had COVID. There's the tigers at the zoo... Very likely it did go from humans to dogs and cats. Only speculation for why it's not likely to go the other way is proximity of spray, animals being in our blast zone but us not being in theirs, higher up..

Again, I'm not an expert... but what likely happened there is that infected humans transmitted covid to their pets through prolonged close contact where the animals were breathing the exhalations of their people. Since the covid molecules didn't find the receptors they were looking for or the proteins required for RNA replication, the animals didn't get sick. I'd further postulate that without replication, they weren't a source for new variants, and that they weren't even all that contagious. Basically, a zoological dead end.

[jono]

The vax likely doesn't protect against long covid. Thats a TGR echo chamber theory. https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-03495-2

Link says they halve your chances of long-COVID and that long covid from breakthroughs is "noticeably less common" than among the unvaccinated. Despite more people being vaccinated. Are you sure you're not a failing lawyer from Tacoma?

[skiJ]

Do I have your permission to cite the preprint linked in the NYT article? https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1...02.04.479189v1
If that's not OK let me know and I'll delete it.


Direct respiratory contact--breathing the same air for 15 minutes--isn't the only way respiratory viruses are transmitteed.
As far as whether covid in deer pose any threat to humans (or to the deer population and their predators)--who the hell knows? For now consider it an interesting finding.
Like the findings that NY wastewater has Covid variants that have never been found in people.

goat.
HopelessSkinner's post and my post crossed in cyberspace this morning -
I left mine -unedited- in part, for the irony.

NPR also cited the biorxiv.org abstract, and I intend to include some cites when I get back to the laptop ;

Of course, nobody needs my "permission" for anything -
mine was A request - "please... "
. . . I look to you for Good information here - especially about s scientific and medical matters. Most of the time You deliver - Thank you.

I was in-the-field for MadCow Disease and CWD in USofA -
concerns about zoonotic were the most important part of my Work -
Before I posted this morning, I ran-it-past a colleague who is still in-the-field ;
between us, that is More than sixty years experience, though our entry-Education was the same.

IF coronavirus in deer poses a threat to people, That will be historically,Different than anything I am aware of Except MERS and SARS. ( to my reading, short-lived outbreaks.
to my reading, covid is different than Smallpox. )

as simply as I believe this :
do deer have coronavirus? Sure.
apparently, they even have coronavirus that tests positive, and apparently have the same sequences as omicron - okay.

I still believe there are variations in the virus not-yet-identified, Because
in the captive deer herds, it is NOT being claimed that deer are transmitting covid to people.

it is not being claimed by the Scientists, that deer are transmitting covid to people
( And, I back that with sixty years experience ( 30x2 ) )

Could deer produce a variant ? Sure.
... you still need a mechanism of transmission --

And you see where this has gone :
Cats and Dogs have covid --

( dog) help me.

IF you live with a herd of deer,
Please Be careful. Because deer have tested positive for covid.
( there are aspects of the Science that are incomplete ; and
it has not yet been shown that deer can transmit covid to people. )


Please - Be vaccinated - and boostered.

tj. class of 1987.

[Percy Rideout]

goat.
HopelessSkinner's post and my post crossed in cyberspace this morning -
I left mine -unedited- in part, for the irony.

NPR also cited the biorxiv.org abstract, and I intend to include some cites when I get back to the laptop ;

Of course, nobody needs my "permission" for anything -
mine was A request - "please... "
. . . I look to you for Good information here - especially about s scientific and medical matters. Most of the time You deliver - Thank you.

I was in-the-field for MadCow Disease and CWD in USofA -
concerns about zoonotic were the most important part of my Work -
Before I posted this morning, I ran-it-past a colleague who is still in-the-field ;
between us, that is More than sixty years experience, though our entry-Education was the same.

IF coronavirus in deer poses a threat to people, That will be historically,Different than anything I am aware of Except MERS and SARS. ( to my reading, short-lived outbreaks.
to my reading, covid is different than Smallpox. )

as simply as I believe this :
do deer have coronavirus? Sure.
apparently, they even have coronavirus that tests positive, and apparently have the same sequences as omicron - okay.

I still believe there are variations in the virus not-yet-identified, Because
in the captive deer herds, it is NOT being claimed that deer are transmitting covid to people.

it is not being claimed by the Scientists, that deer are transmitting covid to people
( And, I back that with sixty years experience ( 30x2 ) )

Could deer produce a variant ? Sure.
... you still need a mechanism of transmission --

And you see where this has gone :
Cats and Dogs have covid --

( dog) help me.

IF you live with a herd of deer,
Please Be careful. Because deer have tested positive for covid.
( there are aspects of the Science that are incomplete ; and
it has not yet been shown that deer can transmit covid to people. )


Please - Be vaccinated - and boostered.

tj. class of 1987.

Didn't someone offer up their services to translate SkiJ's jibberish?

[skiJ]

Didn't someone offer up their services to translate SkiJ's jibberish?

Asspen.
you are a known troll -

goodbye. skiJ

[altasnob]

From today's NY Times (abridged version):

The Next Vaccine Debate: Immunize Young Children Now, or Wait?

It’s not clear whether three doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine will adequately protect young children. But the F.D.A. may authorize the first two doses anyway.

The Food and Drug Administration’s upcoming review of the Pfizer-BioNTech coronavirus vaccine for young children is without precedent in recent history.

Next week, scientific advisers to the agency will decide whether to endorse two doses of the vaccine for children 6 months through 4 years of age, before clinical trials have shown the full course — three doses — to be effective. Such an authorization would be a first for the agency, many experts say.

In fact, interim results from the trial suggested that two doses of the vaccine did not produce a strong immune response in children aged 2 through 4. Results from trials of the third dose are expected in a few weeks.

The companies applied for authorization at the urging of the F.D.A., also highly unusual. The fast-moving pandemic has forced federal health officials to make important decisions with limited data before, and they argue that it’s important to begin vaccinating young children now, before a new, potentially more dangerous variant arrives.

But the agency’s review of incomplete data as a basis for authorization has alarmed some experts.

“We’ve never done that before, that’s what gives me some pause,” said Dr. Gregory Poland, founder and director of the Mayo Vaccine Research Group in Minnesota, and editor in chief of the journal Vaccine. “I don’t like that there isn’t more data.”

The third dose is likely to build up immunity in young children, Dr. Poland and several other experts said, but it is not guaranteed to do so. With the ebbing of the Omicron surge, many scientists feel the agency could afford to wait for results on the third shots, which are expected in just a few weeks.

Authorizing a vaccine before that may undermine the public’s trust in the regulatory process, and deter parents who are already anxious about immunizing their children, they warn. What if the third dose simply doesn’t work, and millions of parents have already given their children the first two doses?

Although children generally do not become seriously ill when infected with the coronavirus, more of them have been hospitalized during the Omicron surge than at any other point in the pandemic. But multiple studies have shown that children who are hospitalized with Covid tend to have conditions that predispose them to severe illness, including diabetes, chronic lung disease or heart problems.

Instead of authorizing the vaccine for all 18 million children aged 6 months to 4, the agency might consider recommending it only for children at high risk until more evidence becomes available, some experts said.

“On one side, parents are desperate to get their kids protected. On another side, there is extreme distrust,” said Natalie Dean, a biostatistician at Emory University in Atlanta. “The whole process will need to be approached with care and a lot of transparency.”

Even if vaccination of young children begins in April, it will be summer before they have had three doses, noted Dr. Diego Hijano, a pediatric infectious disease specialist at St. Jude Children’s Research Hospital, and an investigator for the Pfizer-BioNTech trial. “For sure, by summer we may have a variant of concern that’s spreading around.”

But other researchers said preparing for the future was not a compelling enough reason to get ahead of the third-dose clinical trial. The risk-benefit calculus for young children now is very different from that of adults at the start of the pandemic, Dr. Poland said.

“When we’re making these considerations for kids, we’re not making it in the smoke and fog and chaos of war,” he said.

“I would, as a vaccinologist, just have to sit and think about it a little bit,” Dr. Poland added of the F.D.A.’s decision. “I can just guess that that puzzling is going to take a lot longer for the majority of America’s parents.”

Authorization of a two-dose regimen before it is certain the third dose will cinch immunity is likely to encourage some parents to get their children the first two doses in hopes it will put them on the road to protection against the virus; others will want to wait until all the data are available.

And that pesky high fever talk just won't go away:

The vaccine makers could have tested two doses of 10 micrograms, the amount given to older children. But in the safety testing, that dose produced fevers in about one in five children aged 2 to 4, according to a federal official who is familiar with the data.

Although that rate is comparable to the rate observed in adolescents and young adults after the second dose, fevers in children younger than age 5 are much more concerning.

Young children with high fevers often end up in emergency rooms, and the visits may entail antibiotics, invasive tests and hospitalizations, Dr. Maldonado said. Conversely, parents may mistakenly attribute a fever to the vaccine when it may be caused by something else that warrants medical attention.

“You don’t want it for any age group, but especially not the little ones,” Dr. Maldonado said of a vaccine that produces high fevers. “If you extrapolate that to every under-5-year-old, that’s a lot of fevers.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/09/h...-vaccines.html

[Buzzworthy]

How hard is it to post like a normal human being SkiJ? You started doing it but now you’re back to the stupid.

[riser4]

How hard is it to post like a normal human being SkiJ? You started doing it but now you’re back to the stupid.

Did I miss some normal posts? Shit. I was afraid of that.

[teleee]

How hard is it to post like a normal human being SkiJ? You started doing it but now you’re back to the stupid.

Seriously! I have no doubt that he posts some informative shit but his prose hurts my brain so much I have to skip it, Im afraid it might induce a seizure trying to decipher.
Not to mention he attacked me for no reason a few years ago so he’s not on my favorite person list anyway.


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[old goat]

SkiJ--you mentioned MERS and SARS --I assume you mean as examples of zoonotic respiratory infections? Let's not forget influenza. I realize covid is not the flu; flu is (potentially) worse.

[Todd Zander]

Hey listen altafuckstick, the next time my 2 year old peaks a 102 feaver I hope to god he is vaccinated because the ONLY reason he does will be the result of yet another covid infection.

Go and get your children infected so you can lay down in their fucking bed with them while theyre muttering the word “hot”… which btw was in his top ten first words because we burn wood. Fuck you

[skiJ]

SkiJ--you mentioned MERS and SARS --I assume you mean as examples of zoonotic respiratory infections? Let's not forget influenza. I realize covid is not the flu; flu is (potentially) worse.

crud. Short version :

... viral zoonotics --

at the moment, I am not thinking of a zoonotic Influenza
( I will have to review 'swine flu'.

maybe a mutation (?)
Maybe a misnomer
( there is a theory that covid was actually a Kansas mutation... ))

I had a much longer message drafted...
Gone ! with an erroneous keystroke - )

... viral zoonotics ( SARS and MERS. After my time. )


Thank you. skiJ

[Mustonen]

goodbye. skiJ

I think he says this when he puts you on ignore.

Anyways, mostly over his bullshit.

[skiJ]

swine flu - maybe / Probably.

last - H1N1 of 2009. A viral 'soup' beyond my understanding...

regionally, we had a woman that went from healthy to dead in 48hours.

at that time, I did not even think about being Sick for 72hours...
( in 2010, I had Influenza - and got very, very Sick. )

1918 was considered a mutated 'swine flu'.


Thank you. skiJ

[teletech]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft....b-dab311405c2a
pandemic

‘Full blown’ pandemic phase of Covid nearly over in US, declares Fauci

This is a weird bubble you people live in. Keep rehashing the same shit over and over again. Pandemic is over and you can’t get over it. You are triple vaxxed, you will be fine. Let it go. Time to nuke this thread and set you bitches free. Fly bitches fly

[altasnob]

Hey listen altafuckstick, the next time my 2 year old peaks a 102 feaver I hope to god he is vaccinated because the ONLY reason he does will be the result of yet another covid infection.

Go and get your children infected so you can lay down in their fucking bed with them while theyre muttering the word “hot”… which btw was in his top ten first words because we burn wood. Fuck you

My bad. I forgot the NYTimes was on the offensive list. Where did we put that approved reading list again?

I am sorry your child got sick, but whether you have a child, I have a child, or any other personal factors, are irrelevant to an objective discussion of the issues. Are the FDA officials making the decision on this required to have children?

[old goat]

I'm not worried about Covid in deer, but it's probably a good thing that the California law allowing the salvage and consumption of roadkill is stuck in bureaucratic limbo.
Out of an abundance of caution.

[skiJ]

post 20766, from page 831 ;

please see post 20646, from page 826 --

From today's NY Times (abridged version):



And that pesky high fever talk just won't go away:



https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/09/h...-vaccines.html

this guy thinks "high" and "severe" and "pesky high" are "objective" measures of Temperature / fever =

go back two days, guy - 100.5F and 102F are objective - measurable numbers. adjectives are NOT objective.


but what is more disappointing to me, is his attempt to trot back out his argument about fever at all :

the fevers were found in the Safety study group, for the Ten microgram dose ;

because 'approximately twenty percent' of the Two year olds to Four year olds developed fevers - Three of thirty-two children -
... because three children developed fevers, they revised the dose to Three micrograms given two and three times ( they are still working on the analysis of the third dose ).

But oh, that "pesky high fever" from a dosage that is no longer under consideration ;

at least now, he has offered us his abridged version of the paywall-protected bastion of Science and Medical research, the NewYork
Times
( oh, wait. it has already been shown that he misrepresents his sources, to lead his reader to conclusions Opposite of the sources he claims to cite ( Dr. Murray ). )

This guy works like a Bad lawyer..
But hey - aren't "high" and "severe" and "pesky high" objective ? ?? no, they are not objective: they are subjective terms --

But let's get everyone worked-up about a dosage that is no longer under consideration.


you know, guy - I feel sorry for your children.

If I still had young children, I would be working my ass off, And spending any Time I had With my young children
Not spending hours on an internet forum trying to act like a lawyer.


ten micrograms is Not a part of the proposal.

oh. and the FDA requested Pfizer submit a vaccination proposal for young children -

I would offer(,) a better outcome next week, is that they review the data to-date, and schedule another review for March, when they can have the data for the third dose included
( interestingly, this is very similar to the schedule that was successfully used to vaccinate adults who had reactions to the first dose of vaccine they received - giving fractions of the dose over a period of time... )

But let's stir things up about a dose that is not under consideration.


I feel sorry for your kids.


I am sorry to waste everyone else's time. respectfully ( Not you, altasnob. ) skiJ (tj)

[bennymac]

XXX - your townsfolk

2 B.C. doctors went on a COVID-19 speaking tour. Colleagues say their misinformation put public at risk

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...tion-1.6334580

[bigdude2468]

XXX - your townsfolk

2 B.C. doctors went on a COVID-19 speaking tour. Colleagues say their misinformation put public at risk

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...tion-1.6334580

I see Illinois is removing all indoor mask mandates except in hospitals, nursing homes and schools. What is the rationale for keeping masks on in schools? I understand protecting the vulnerable but why kids which would seem to be at the bottom of the vulnerability scale?

[Hopeless Sinner]

I see Illinois is removing all indoor mask mandates except in hospitals, nursing homes and schools. What is the rationale for keeping masks on in schools? I understand protecting the vulnerable but why kids which would seem to be at the bottom of the vulnerability scale?

Kids-

The individuals outcome is only part of the equation, and thats were freedumbs are completely overwhelming civic duty.

There can be no in person schools w/out teachers, admin, bus drivers, etc. Kids are still full of covid and if they have to be kept home in quarantine parents now can't work, more lost instruction, it's a huge burden on teachers to have kids out of class and the virus spreads to siblings and others in the household and the pandemics effect continue.