To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[mtuhockey33]

mtuhockey, this thread seems to be your kryptonite.

Nah, I just can’t stand the disingenuous members on here that seem to think these vaccines, without keeping up every 6 months, are going to save anything… they don’t. They’re not the same as measles, mumps, polio vaccines as those eradicate the disease, not mitigate its effects. They especially don’t wane immunity after 3 months to that of an unvaccinated person…

but keep up with those boosters every 6 months to save yourself and everyone else over 50… y’all need it

[The AD]

I don't understand how you can see data like the graphs I've attached below from the NY Times and conclude that the vaccines haven't been effective. The only reason they aren't comparable to some other vaccines is that not enough people are vaccinated. If we had 90% vaccinated in this country the number of cases would be very low. The problem isn't breakthrough cases. The problem is unvaccinated people continuing to drive cases.

[teletech]

The cdc only tracks cases of breakthroughs if they result in hospitalizations https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...kthrough-cases

[mtuhockey33]

I don't understand how you can see data like the graphs I've attached below from the NY Times and conclude that the vaccines haven't been effective. The only reason they aren't comparable to some other vaccines is that not enough people are vaccinated. If we had 90% vaccinated in this country the number of cases would be very low.

for how long? I’m not arguing the vaccine doesn’t work; just that it’s not comparable to measles/mumps/polio vaccines and that making it a mandate is insane. It’s like if we used to mandate getting the flu vaccine.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid...after-2-months

6 months after you need a booster - which is actually half as long as your yearly flu shot lasted…

[Mofro261]

Nah, I just can’t stand the disingenuous members on here that seem to think these vaccines, without keeping up every 6 months, are going to save anything… they don’t. They’re not the same as measles, mumps, polio vaccines as those eradicate the disease, not mitigate its effects. They especially don’t wane immunity after 3 months to that of an unvaccinated person…

but keep up with those boosters every 6 months to save yourself and everyone else over 50… y’all need it

History. That's another subject you should read up on before opening your mouth again about more complex subjects like Immunology of which your understanding is paper thin.

Hint: how many years did it take to eradicate polio, and mitigate measles and mumps which have not been eradicated?

How shots of each vaccine are needed to get the needed level of immunity?

Those are softball questions. Let's see if your knowledge scrapes even a superficial layer.

[The AD]

Well, I don't understand how you can look at data like I presented and still consider a vaccine mandate "insane." Let's recap: unvaccinated deaths 12x as high as vaccinated. But, OMG, you might need to get boosters!

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Sucks. Was he vaxxed?

Of course he wasn’t


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[funkendrenchman]

for how long? I’m not arguing the vaccine doesn’t work; just that it’s not comparable to measles/mumps/polio vaccines and that making it a mandate is insane. It’s like if we used to mandate getting the flu vaccine.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid...after-2-months

6 months after you need a booster - which is actually half as long as your yearly flu shot lasted…

You get four doses of the polio vaccine. Three in roughly the first year.

[Mofro261]

The cdc only tracks cases of breakthroughs if they result in hospitalizations https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...kthrough-cases

But states with large populations, NY, CA, and regional jurisdictions do track infections, hospitalizations, and deaths in vaxxed vs unvaxxed.

Tldr- they all have similar results, 6-12 lower Infection rates vs unvaxxed.

Locally in my county this means infection rates of 8.4/100K in the vaxxed, 94/100K in the remaining unvaxxed.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

If it was longer than 3-6 months ago, guy could’ve been vaxx’d and had his antibodies wane to the point where he’s as good as unvaccinated.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-021-02689-y

”The study shows that people who become infected with the Delta variant are less likely to pass the virus to their close contacts if they have already had a COVID-19 vaccine than if they haven’t1. But that protective effect is relatively small, and dwindles alarmingly at three months after the receipt of the second shot.”

“A person who was fully vaccinated and then had a ‘breakthrough’ Delta infection was almost twice as likely to pass on the virus as someone who was infected with Alpha.”

“In people infected 2 weeks after receiving the vaccine developed by the University of Oxford and AstraZeneca, both in the UK, the chance that an unvaccinated close contact would test positive was 57%, but 3 months later, that chance rose to 67%. The latter figure is on par with the likelihood that an unvaccinated person will spread the virus.”

looks like those vaccines don’t really work after 6 months… unlike shingles, measles, mumps, polio….

The article that you linked discusses transmission and nothing in it talks about the protection offered by vaccines. How is it relative at all to a healthy unvaccinated person dying?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Danno]

If polio was a new disease today, we would never eradicate it. That much is obvious.

[skaredshtles]

If polio was a new disease today, we would never eradicate it. That much is obvious.

"Those paralyzed children? They are the price of Freedumb, my friend... they are the price of Freedumb."

[Name Redacted]

If polio was a new disease today, we would never eradicate it. That much is obvious.

Well, a dime in 1945 would be worth $1.50 now. Ain't no way people can afford to give up a buck fiddy to eradicate anything these days.

[MagnificentUnicorn]

for how long? I’m not arguing the vaccine doesn’t work; just that it’s not comparable to measles/mumps/polio vaccines and that making it a mandate is insane. It’s like if we used to mandate getting the flu vaccine.

https://www.webmd.com/vaccines/covid...after-2-months

6 months after you need a booster - which is actually half as long as your yearly flu shot lasted…

So if the Pfizer vaccine results in infection being no worse than the common cold after some time and prevents hospitalization and death(the real concern) compared to rolling the dice foregoing the vaccines, which is a better choice? This virus is disabling and killing a not insignificant segment of the unvaccinated population.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[skaredshtles]

History. That's another subject you should read up on before opening your mouth again about more complex subjects like Immunology of which your understanding is paper thin.

Hint: how many years did it take to eradicate polio, and mitigate measles and mumps which have not been eradicated?

How shots of each vaccine are needed to get the needed level of immunity?

Those are softball questions. Let's see if your knowledge scrapes even a superficial layer.

[skaredshtles]

But states with large populations, NY, CA, and regional jurisdictions do track infections, hospitalizations, and deaths in vaxxed vs unvaxxed.

Tldr- they all have similar results, 6-12 lower Infection rates vs unvaxxed.

Locally in my county this means infection rates of 8.4/100K in the vaxxed, 94/100K in the remaining unvaxxed.

[skiJ]

I kind of feel bad for him -
. . . he has made an effort this morning to cite references he believes support his position; I will give him credit for that.

Mofro hits a proverbial nail-on-the-head for me - the diseases and the vaccinations he is trying to compare covid to have decades of history.
( repeating for emphasis ) ... decades of history.


the thesis of the Nature essay is challenging for me - vaccination provides protection from transmission of Delta in Breakthrough cases for a limited period of Time.
of the possible developments that might of occurred with Delta, that seems pretty acceptable to me.

I understand for those who needed 'sterilizing immunity' ( no possibility of transmission ), it does not satisfy; but given the protection vaccination provides against deadly disease ( including Delta ), that vaccination does reduce transmission, and that vaccination protects against severe covid in Breakthrough infections - those seem like big 'wins' to me.


the current chaos is difficult -
those on the frontline like MUnicorn and others will always have my Respect.


the last sentence of the first paragraph of post#15975 leaves me shaking my head,
( "They especially don’t wane immunity after 3 months to that of an unvaccinated person… " ) , and

it is difficult to have an effective discussion with someone who opens and closes with obnoxious insults.
but this morning, I will give him credit for trying to follow the accepted practice of citing references he believes support his position.


good luck. tj

[ex-powderbroker]

It's one thing to be wrong about chicken pox, antibodies, the length of protection of a vaccine... but it's another to never let it go.
The latter probably goes along with "never being wrong" but I couldn't find a study.

[Kinnikinnick]

The article that you linked discusses transmission and nothing in it talks about the protection offered by vaccines. How is it relative at all to a healthy unvaccinated person dying?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Stew Pid doesn’t understand much, but sure is adamant about his misunderstandings.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[The Tortoise]

Another data point.

Ontario has vaccinated 74% of the entire population, cooresponding to about 85% of the eligible population. This is more than any state in the US.

Despite having a population of 15 million or so, our daily cases have been averaging between 350-400 new cases per day. That's pretty fucking awesome for a population that size. When you consider that 2/3rds of those new cases are unvaccinated people, clearly the vaccines are having a positive effect on transmission.

[CarlMega]

Well, I don't understand how you can look at data like I presented and still consider a vaccine mandate "insane." Let's recap: unvaccinated deaths 12x as high as vaccinated. But, OMG, you might need to get boosters!

That's the justification/rationalization I want to hear - why is it "insane"? To me, it sounds very sensible and in line with other disease mitigations we've taken in the past.

That's pretty fucking awesome for a population that size. When you consider that 2/3rds of those new cases are unvaccinated people, clearly the vaccines are having a positive effect on transmission.

Oh sure. If you want to measure "results", I guess that's a thing. But have you considered that these COVID vaccines don't hold up to some new talking point of a nebulous gold standard of effectiveness that will morph and contort as needed to justify ones position? I mean: science!

[skaredshtles]

Another data point.

Ontario has vaccinated 74% of the entire population, cooresponding to about 85% of the eligible population. This is more than any state in the US.

Despite having a population of 15 million or so, our daily cases have been averaging between 350-400 new cases per day. That's pretty fucking awesome for a population that size. When you consider that 2/3rds of those new cases are unvaccinated people, clearly the vaccines are having a positive effect on transmission.

[paulster2626]

It's all right here:

https://russell-pollari.github.io/ontario-covid19/

Make sure to click on the "vaccines" section as well to see the effectiveness.

[skaredshtles]

It's all right here:

https://russell-pollari.github.io/ontario-covid19/

Make sure to click on the "vaccines" section as well to see the effectiveness.

[teletech]

If the cdc only tracks breakthrough cases that result In hospitalization and that graph is based on it. Vaccine is effective in people not dying. It doesn’t stop the spread. I know so many people with breakthrough cases.