To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[DougW]

There must be variations though my searches haven't made it much clearer. Trying to answer in my own mind how dangerous were MMR vac compared to having the infection as a kid. I'm old enough to have had all of those childhood diseases and back then it was a matter of course but there was harm/death rate for those infections. You would think there could be a standardized score/number system based on the likelihood of harm from disease vs likelihood of harm from vax ? For example smallpox vax. World had pretty much gotten rid of it other than small corners of world by 1970s but was still a requirement to travel and my wife got it as a kid in BC in school. I got the vax again in early 80s at basic just as I got jabs of everything.

The only reason I'm thinking about this as anti vaxxers keep on going on about anecdotal stories of harm not releasing that if you give 100 of millions of shoots that even at a very low % of harm there will be harm to somebody. But what is the harm rate? And how much work is done to really look at is the harm really done by the vax or was it covid or just random shit. I heard on one woman who died after the vac but she killed her liver from taking too much Tylenol trying to deal with vax pain. Being a dumbass from ODing on pain killers isn't the vaxxs fault.

[CarlMega]

The only reason I'm thinking about this as anti vaxxers keep on going on about anecdotal stories of harm not releasing that if you give 100 of millions of shoots that even at a very low % of harm there will be harm to somebody. But what is the harm rate?

Of course it is going to depend on the vaccine in question and your personal health characteristics/demographics. I'm certain you could find this level of raw data. That said and really RE-said, the best place to understand your personal risk regarding immunization starts with your Physician and their guidance. Its a shame as virtually everyone of the naysayers are leap frogging this critical first step. Everyone's a fucking expert these days... the hubris. Now, sure the most stringent anti-vax are going to doctor shop (if at all) and find some quack as nutty as them. But for the hesitant, the curious and the easily influenced - they would be best served by consulting their doctor.

[old goat]

I'll let you Wikipedia measles. That disease killed a lot of people, maimed a lot of people.
Every disease I can think of that has a vaccine is a serious disease that kills a lot of people. There is lots of work done to look at potential harm from vaccines. VAERS for example that we've been babbling about these last pages. Probably the most notable vaccine side effect is febrile seizures in babies, which are very frightening but surprisingly benign.
The only reason we are even talking about this is that fraud, Andrew Wakefield. That man has a lot of blood on his hands.
Vaccines are easily the single most important medical creation in history (as opposed to public health measures like clean water and adequate nutrition.) Antibiotics are a distant second.
If you had to get rid of all the hospitals and doctors or get rid of vaccines I'd keep the vaccines, without a doubt.

Why don't you give this a look--recalled vaccines and the ultimate outcomes of further investigation.
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/co...s-history.html

[skiJ]

Doug -

I think some of the information you seek is being compiled -

is there a standardized definition of "harm" ?

I have only heard about One death that is being attributed to a vaccination reaction, that in a woman who developed thrombosis approximately two weeks after vaccination -

it was unclear to me from the information I read whether or not she had a known platelet disorder ( And
it does not matter to me - the idea that two young children lost their mother is devastating. )


to your south, there are now more than 700,000 deaths attributed to covid -

the recent model I read claimed without the development of vaccines, that number could have surpassed three million.

'rate of harm' from vaccine ? I have not heard it defined in those terms before your post -
( is a temporary side effect harm ? )
to me, I want to hear something more attributable than an injection reaction ( 'soreness at the site of the injection, or soreness in the limb injected.
I have a hard time considering these reactions to the vaccine ( I Do consider them reactions to receiving an injection - ) )


maybe tomorrow morning I can go back and look at the vaccine trial information that is available -

depending on the / your definition of 'harm' , I do believe the rate is extraordinarily Low --


tj

[DougW]

This is purely a intellectual interest and in no way would effect my choices with regard to vaxs. I've always just lined up and trusted the HC community when getting jabbed.

When you see the anti vax stuff out there pre covid and during covid would like to be able to sort out no factual basis from little bit of truth but missing big picture.

[skiJ]

yeah ( yes ) - I figured it was something like that - your posts are pretty thoughtful -

I won't ( - I hope - ) engage beyond covid -
I am not a historian - and I see some of the information going in directions that then need to be refuted -

an early post talked about vaccinating for tuberculosis ( that would be news to me ).


currently the idea of myocarditis / myopericarditis is getting a lot of attention ( regarding vaccination ) -

myocarditis was diagnosed as a condition associated with covid ;
I find One case reportedly associated with vaccination - and that is in a group from ages 12 - 39
( there are lots of causes of myocarditis in adults ) - -

myocarditis as possibly being associated with "chest pain" in otherwise healthy young males - 'without (any) follow-up' and without a definitive diagnosis, ,,, seems like a stretch to me
( I looked hard yesterday for an abstract that explains the 'nordic' decision to restrict Moderna. yesterday, I found nothing more than 'abundance of caution' -

from experience, I know several ( sometimes many ) factors go into a decision like that ) --


finally, Thank you - I debated including in my previous post -

vaccinate to reduce the spread of covid - to protect your community and broader society -

it is not just about individual immunity...

it's kind of sad - goat has eloquently presented the importance of Vaccination to the health of humans over the last (century ( I have it at about eighty years. goat did not define his time-frame. )
but we now have such a short attention span, and at least in the USofA, such an individual focus, ,,, . . .


I will look again tomorrow -

to try to close on a Positive note,
the numbers are (slowly) 'inching(sic. USA )' upward. as communities adopt 'mandates' and policies, the 'test-out' option becomes less attractive -

I don't know that North America will ever have population immunity - but we are moving (strongly) to being able to resist deadly disease with effective vaccination (for covid) -

perhaps a hopeful step. !

again, thank you for your thoughtful contributions to this thread -

respectfully. tj

[Todd Zander]

Warning, not anecdotal:
Mid 30’s healthy couple with 3 kids under 5, fully vaxxed since may. Wifes rapid came back positive with cold symptoms this morning. Waiting on my pcr, but will do a rapid tomorrow.

Watchout buttah and mniaw its here

[MontuckyFried]

Every disease I can think of that has a vaccine is a serious disease that kills a lot of people. L

Yeah. Except for anthrax. Easily the most pointless vaccine I've had. Haha


Sent from my Pixel 3 using TGR Forums mobile app

[mcphee]

Warning, not anecdotal:
Mid 30’s healthy couple with 3 kids under 5, fully vaxxed since may. Wifes rapid came back positive with cold symptoms this morning. Waiting on my pcr, but will do a rapid tomorrow.

Watchout buttah and mniaw its here

Vibes man, similiar situation over here but with a 7 week old. Fully vaxxed since April. Wife woke up from a nap last night feeling feverish and achey. I went and grabbed some rapid tests and she tested positive, me negative. She got a PCR test today from Walgreens and it was positive.

She woke up today feeling better. Fever was down to 99ish from 101.8 last night. She’s now running a 101.7 fever and body aches getting worse. On edge and pretty worried over here.

[old goat]

Is this the recent Swedish vaccine study that keeps getting brought up?

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....04.21263507v1

No. This is a study of the rates of various hypothetical vaccine complications in the general Swedish population. So if a vaccine study shows myocarditis risk of 100/million in vaccinate young men and this studys' number is 10/million, then you can say that the risk of myocarditis is increased in that age and sex group. If this study shows a risk of 100/million than you can say the risk in young men is not increased by vaccine.

[ill-advised strategy]

Our beloved, long, long time local tv weatherman just quit instead of getting vaccinated. Ran into a mutual contact a while back, pre-covid, who said he’d gone pretty hard down the right wingy rabbit hole.. So sad!





We had a rule in my house: when Bohnak’s talking everybody shut the fuck up. So I guess, friggin…talk away!

[uglymoney]

Shingrix 1, kicked my ass today after seemingly feeling fine last night. Headache. Sore injection site. My body felt like a lead balloon. Slept all afternoon after abandoning projects for the comfort of the football couch. I was cold af in our mildly air conditioned house so I had to throw on a sweatshirt. Worse than the covids shots for me.

A friend of mine told me a tale of painful shingles on an Argentinian backpack. Fuck that. Totally worth the pain of the shot.

Feeling better tonight.

/blog

[SumJongGuy]

If you took over 20 vaccines without batting an eye and are a public or military servant but now object to this pandemic required fully approved vaccine.. It's not the vaccine you object to but rather the authority of the administration requiring it. You're no longer fit to serve ALL your community or nation. Good riddance..

[old goat]

Which reminds me--shingles is a non lethal disease with a vaccine. There are rare deaths due to shingles in immunocompromised people but anyone who has had shingles will tell you that the negligible risk of the vaccine is well worth it.

[mcski]

My wife had shingles a few years ago. It was pretty awful and not sure I wouldn’t swallow a bullet if I had a case like that. That vax is a hard one but def worth it

[riser4]

Just got back from New Brunswick, Canada. If you want to go into a restaurant you have to show proof of vaccination and a government issued ID with a matching name on it.

[Benny Profane]

Yeah, pretty much.

https://twitter.com/Eldon_Katz/statu...804276226?s=20

[ill-advised strategy]

If you took over 20 vaccines without batting an eye and are a public or military servant but now object to this pandemic required fully approved vaccine.. It's not the vaccine you object to but rather the authority of the administration requiring it. You're no longer fit to serve ALL your community or nation. Good riddance..

So, you’re right…

But what troubles me is: what then? Because it’s only a form of riddance…these people are still here, in life, in our communities, facing Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Those needs will inevitably hold them entangled into societal interactions through systems and social fabrics badly damaged by these schisms we’re going through. The widespread, dispersed personal and civic chaos of mass displacement may be better than having infectious dummies filling roles they shouldn’t be, but it’s also real bad to just cut them adrift into the world angry and resentful.

[SumJongGuy]

So, you’re right…

But what troubles me is: what then? Because it’s only a form of riddance…these people are still here, in life, in our communities, facing Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. Those needs will inevitably hold them entangled into societal interactions through systems and social fabrics badly damaged by these schisms we’re going through. The widespread, dispersed personal and civic chaos of mass displacement may be better than having infectious dummies filling roles they shouldn’t be, but it’s also real bad to just cut them adrift into the world angry and resentful.

This is how Iraq got ISIS.. They were former military excommunicated from society there because of their extremist religious views.. Pretty much exactly the same thing.. Let them have their way and they push us politically to a religious doctrine influenced society. Tell them good riddance and they take up arms to achieve the same..

[riser4]

Maslow FTW!

[Benny Profane]

https://www.technologyreview.com/202...isinformation/

"Unfortunately, as Jeffrey Morris at UPenn points out, public health officials and scientists have done plenty to undermine their own authority, like claiming masks don’t work, downplaying the natural immunity conveyed by previous covid infections, and not doing enough public communication about vaccine safety surveillance systems.
”We don’t want to feed the anti-vaccine trolls, so we actively suppress clear scientific data. Now we’ve lost the high ground,” Morris told me.
And that is what has allowed Kirsch, and people like him, to become so influential. It’s a cycle that feeds mistrust and boosts the profiles of influencers who present themselves in opposition to official authorities.
“The collateral damage is that, now, a lot of people don’t trust scientific leaders or the scientific community. They’re finding alternative leaders to follow,” Morris said. “That’s what creates some of these heroes.”"

[ill-advised strategy]

Maslow FTW!

I think, with antivax outcasts, every level has something problematic for the rest of us. From interaction with the community for basic sustenance needs, to employment, to family and recreation and social pursuits, to the kind of activist mission mindset stuff that might crop up with self actualization. It’s all problematic when you insert a desperate, infectious, resentful outcast into it.

[altasnob]

Moderna, Racing for Profits, Keeps Covid Vaccine Out of Reach of Poor

Moderna has shipped a greater share of its doses to wealthy countries than any other vaccine manufacturer. About one million doses of Moderna’s vaccine have gone to countries that the World Bank classifies as low income. By contrast, 8.4 million Pfizer doses and about 25 million single-shot Johnson & Johnson doses have gone to those countries. Of the handful of middle-income countries that have reached deals to buy Moderna’s shots, most have not yet received any doses, and at least three have had to pay more than the United States or European Union did. “They are behaving as if they have absolutely no responsibility beyond maximizing the return on investment,” said Dr. Tom Frieden, a former head of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/09/b...smid=url-share

The recent dip in stock price corresponds to doubts surrounding widespread use booster shot, as well the antiviral Covid pill from Merck taking away potential customers.

[PB]

At least some of the non-shipments could simply be related to the lack of proper freezing capacity. Wonder how many of Pfizer's vaccines were ruined due to lack thereof?

[mcski]

At least some of the non-shipments could simply be related to the lack of proper freezing capacity. Wonder how many of Pfizer's vaccines were ruined due to lack thereof?

A pharmacist friend told me they have dumped a lot of vaccines in the trash simply because they don’t have the bandwidth to administer all of them. Corp expects them to do 5 jobs at once and there simply isn’t time