Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[Skidog]

Log off

zero proof right?

[Kinnikinnick]

Take the meds


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[mcphee]

zero proof right?

My semen provides the most immunity. Best results are when it’s fresh. I could jerkoff into your mouth or you could suck my dick.

[Mofro261]

zero proof right?

Proof that natural infection clogs our hospitals and carries a high burden of death, yes that proof is there. That it absolutely fails to achieve "herd immunity" because each wave of infection never hits more than 10-15% of the population, yes that proof is there. Proof that areas with higher % vaccination are currently experiencing much lower rates of infection, yes the proof is there. That the economic consequences of an unvaxxed population are more severe than that of a vaccinated population, yes the proof is there.

What was your argument again? Oh that's right, you don't have one.

[mtuhockey33]

Proof that natural infection clogs our hospitals and carries a high burden of death, yes that proof is there. That it absolutely fails to achieve "herd immunity" because each wave of infection never hits more than 10-15% of the population, yes that proof is there. Proof that areas with higher % vaccination are currently experiencing much lower rates of infection, yes the proof is there. That the economic consequences of an unvaxxed population are more severe than that of a vaccinated population, yes the proof is there.

What was your argument again? Oh that's right, you don't have one.

the argument is that natural immunity is as good as a defense against Covid as the vaccine… but of course you won’t address that because it doesn’t make your vaccine stance look as good…

I realize you’re tired from this shit but accept small losses such as the natural immunity gained from Covid is the same as the vaccine which everyone on this board was totally against a month or two ago

[CarlMega]

I could jerkoff into your mouth or you could suck my dick.

Dominance!

[mcphee]

Maybe the natural immunity dipshits can enlighten me, doubtful I know. Are they arguing that it’s better to get Covid for the antibodies than it is to get the vaccine? Seems….a lot more risky


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[bennymac]

Better to overwhelm hospitals….great argument.

[old goat]

Would it be possible to confine the arguing over nothing to the vaccination thread and reserve this one for actual contributions? Nah, probably too much to ask.
And if you cannot stop yourself from responding to the trolls at least do it in the other thread, although for the life of me I can't see why you bother. This thread has been a good resource for knowledge from some very smart people but increasingly they are being driven away by the bullshit.

[Ted Striker]

I especially like the part where _____ poster thinks they're on an even intellectual footing with mofro.

The fucking hubris...

[bennymac]

MTU literally read a half page patient handout on shingles and went to bat against experts and called them “total retards” on the subject. And got it 100% wrong of course.

Saw it happen in real time. Was mind blowing.

[old_newguy]

Someone posted a great chart comparing R0 for various diseases. I think it was from the Economist.

Little help?

[skaredshtles]

MTU literally read a half page patient handout on shingles and went to bat against experts and called them “total retards” on the subject. And got it 100% wrong of course.

Saw it happen in real time. Was mind blowing.

Well... he was sure sticking to his guns that natural immunity is better than a vaccination on that one! At least he's consistent...ly wrong.

[skaredshtles]

Someone posted a great chart comparing R0 for various diseases. I think it was from the Economist.

Little help?

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...cdc-chickenpox

[old_newguy]

https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsan...cdc-chickenpox

That’s a good one but had them on an XY plot. Scatter plot style sort of.

[jono]

The one that showed lethality on the y?

[skaredshtles]

That’s a good one but had them on an XY plot. Scatter plot style sort of.

[Mofro261]

Ok. So lets break this down again. Natural infection causes natural immunity.

But are all infections the same?

No, not by a long shot.

Hence, natural immunity following natural infection varies widely in a population of convalescent COVID-19 people. How much? Between 5 and 6 orders of magnitude. If those words don't make sense it means from natural infection, the amount of a measurable metric, like how much antibody was produced, varies up to 100,000-1,000,000x between people after infection. Some have a massive amount, some end up with levels below detection. Host genetics, environmental factors, basal levels of inflammation, immunosupression, medications, age, and general health markers all contribute. So do severity of disease, location(s) of where live virus has reached in the body, and duration of infection/symptoms also contribute to variance in natural immunity. More severe disease leads to higher responses. In the process of setting up natural immunity, it's also possible to set off an over-reaction that is detrimental to the body where the immune system attacks ones own tissues. Hospitalizations, increased at least 2x with the Delta strain that also causes increased disease severity in the very young, and deaths, focused in older populations but also scattered through the young and healthy, are side effects of natural infection leading to natural immunity.

Vaccination we know the dose, we have a pretty good idea about the duration of the response, but all those genetic and environmental factors still come into play. Despite that, vaccinated people show less variability, more on the 1,000-10,000 fold differences across a population. The very low end of the response and the very high end responses seen in natural infection are missing. It's a bell shaped curve, natural infection can give equal to, better than, or much worse than, an immune response such as neutralizing antibody or t cell recall responses. That's at a level of magnitude, or how much.

Generally speaking natural infection can increase the breadth of the immune response, primarily due to prolonged antigen presentation and the adjuvant (danger) signals that help shape both t and b cell development, given it's from a live virus that has full infectious potential and the total sum of the antigenic potential. This increased breadth can aide (increased t cell help, increased differentiated memory b cells ) or impede (development of non-productive t cell or non-neutralizing antibody targets to non-Spike antigens, antibody directed enhancement of infection). This is "how many." Ie if I need 100 neutralizing antibodies to achieve a level of protection, I can do it with 10 different antibodies all with a level of 10, 5 with a level of 20, or one antibody at a level of 100. But if I encounter a mutated strain, I'm more vunerable in the last case if there is not enough breadth in the response even if there is sufficient magnitude that was generated.

We make the assays to measure some of these immune "correlates". All of the assays are extensively tested on actual samples that we recieve. This is the variability we see, in convalescent serum samples and vaccinated samples.

The argument has always, always, been is "what is the best way to achieve immunity". There are ZERO immunologists suggesting natural infection with live virus is the preferred route for dosing.

Not "is natural immunity superior or inferior to vaccine mediated immunity." When the average cost of a hospital stay is $50,000 vs a couple vaccine doses at $20 each, and with transmission cycles leading to wave after wave of infections without an approach to herd immunity, there really should be no argument at all.

[old_newguy]

Yes. Do you have a link to that image. Thanks!

[skaredshtles]

Ok. So lets break this down again. Natural infection causes natural immunity.

But are all infections the same?

No, not by a long shot.

Hence, natural immunity following natural infection varies widely in a population of convalescent COVID-19 people. How much? Between 5 and 6 orders of magnitude. If those words don't make sense it means from natural infection, the amount of a measurable metric, like how much antibody was produced, varies up to 100,000-1,000,000x between people after infection. Some have a massive amount, some end up with levels below detection. Host genetics, environmental factors, basal levels of inflammation, immunosupression, medications, age, and general health markers all contribute. So do severity of disease, location(s) of where live virus has reached in the body, and duration of infection/symptoms also contribute to variance in natural immunity. More severe disease leads to higher responses. In the process of setting up natural immunity, it's also possible to set off an over-reaction that is detrimental to the body where the immune system attacks ones own tissues. Hospitalizations, increased at least 2x with the Delta strain that also causes increased disease severity in the very young, and deaths, focused in older populations but also scattered through the young and healthy, are side effects of natural infection leading to natural immunity.

Vaccination we know the dose, we have a pretty good idea about the duration of the response, but all those genetic and environmental factors still come into play. Despite that, vaccinated people show less variability, more on the 1,000-10,000 fold differences across a population. The very low end of the response and the very high end responses seen in natural infection are missing. It's a bell shaped curve, natural infection can give equal to, better than, or much worse than, an immune response such as neutralizing antibody or t cell recall responses. That's at a level of magnitude, or how much.

Generally speaking natural infection can increase the breadth of the immune response, primarily due to prolonged antigen presentation and the adjuvant (danger) signals that help shape both t and b cell development, given it's from a live virus that has full infectious potential and the total sum of the antigenic potential. This increased breadth can aide (increased t cell help, increased differentiated memory b cells ) or impede (development of non-productive t cell or non-neutralizing antibody targets to non-Spike antigens, antibody directed enhancement of infection). This is "how many." Ie if I need 100 neutralizing antibodies to achieve a level of protection, I can do it with 10 different antibodies all with a level of 10, 5 with a level of 20, or one antibody at a level of 100. But if I encounter a mutated strain, I'm more vunerable in the last case if there is not enough breadth in the response even if there is sufficient magnitude that was generated.

We make the assays to measure some of these immune "correlates". All of the assays are extensively tested on actual samples that we recieve. This is the variability we see, in convalescent serum samples and vaccinated samples.

The argument has always, always, been is "what is the best way to achieve immunity". There are ZERO immunologists suggesting natural infection with live virus is the preferred route for dosing.

Not "is natural immunity superior or inferior to vaccine mediated immunity." When the average cost of a hospital stay is $50,000 vs a couple vaccine doses at $20 each, and with transmission cycles leading to wave after wave of infections without an approach to herd immunity, there really should be no arguement at all.

MTU/Montucky/et al:

[skaredshtles]

Yes. Do you have a link to that image. Thanks!

I linked the URL to display the image.

[old_newguy]

Weird. I can’t see the link on my computer and can’t extract the link on my phone.

[skaredshtles]

Weird. I can’t see the link on my computer and can’t extract the link on my phone.

Probably Apple shit, amirite??

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7ifgqWW...name=4096x4096

[MultiVerse]

I realize you’re tired from this shit but accept small losses such as the natural immunity gained from Covid is the same as the vaccine which everyone on this board was totally against a month or two ago

Your framing is once again incredibly dishonest. For some time now people here have said convalescent natural infection can confer good protection. Whereas a month ago the anti-vaxx crowd falsely argued the vaccines were no longer working and that natural infection is better.

You've also argued "maybe the majority of the population has already had the virus, was asymptomatic and we’re already a lot closer to herd immunity than thought."

False narratives like the herd immunity theory or the superiority of natural infection underlies much of the at large anti-vaxx commentary.

[old_newguy]

Probably Apple shit, amirite??

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E7ifgqWW...name=4096x4096

Windows PC, apple phone. Thanks!