To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[Mofro261]

Yep but I talked about viral load. None of the other things. Way to flip the script though.

Clearly you hate being wrong. There is zero definitive evidence saying vaxed carry and transmit less viral load with Delta. I'll quote the magic words again for those that are slow. "Will likely" and "may". Directly from the CDC. Guess they like misinformation too.?

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Transmission is a function of viral load over time. Shortening the period of high viral load shortens transmission window. If you are still not following, a shorter transmission window means less transmission.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...1262158v1.full
Virological characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections in health care workers

Methods We analyzed the virological characteristics of 161 vaccine breakthrough infections in a population of 24,706 vaccinated healthcare workers (HCWs), using RT-PCR and virus culture.

Results The delta variant (B.1.617.2) was identified in the majority of cases. Despite similar Ct-values, we demonstrate lower probability of infectious virus detection in respiratory samples of vaccinated HCWs with breakthrough infections compared to unvaccinated HCWs with primary SARS-CoV-2 infections. Nevertheless, infectious virus was found in 68.6% of breakthrough infections and Ct-values decreased throughout the first 3 days of illness.

Conclusions We conclude that rare vaccine breakthrough infections occur, but infectious virus shedding is reduced in these cases.

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...%20individuals

Viral dynamics of SARS-CoV-2 variants in vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals

Background The alpha and delta SARS-CoV-2 variants have been responsible for major recent waves of COVID-19 despite increasing vaccination rates. The reasons for the increased transmissibility of these variants and for the reduced transmissibility of vaccine breakthrough infections are unclear.

Methods We quantified the course of viral proliferation and clearance for 173 individuals with acute SARS-CoV-2 infections using longitudinal quantitative RT-PCR tests conducted using anterior nares/oropharyngeal samples (n = 199,941) as part of the National Basketball Association’s (NBA) occupational health program between November 28th, 2020, and August 11th, 2021. We measured the duration of viral proliferation and clearance and the peak viral concentration separately for individuals infected with alpha, delta, and non-variants of interest/variants of concern (non-VOI/VOC), and for vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.

Results
The mean viral trajectories of alpha and delta infections resembled those of non-VOI/VOC infections. Vaccine breakthrough infections exhibited similar proliferation dynamics as infections in unvaccinated individuals (mean peak Ct: 20.5, 95% credible interval [19.0, 21.0] vs. 20.7 [19.8, 20.2], and mean proliferation time 3.2 days [2.5, 4.0] vs. 3.5 days [3.0, 4.0]); however, vaccinated individuals exhibited faster clearance (mean clearance time: 5.5 days [4.6, 6.6] vs. 7.5 days [6.8, 8.2]).

Conclusions Alpha, delta, and non-VOI/VOC infections feature similar viral trajectories. Acute infections in vaccinated and unvaccinated people feature similar proliferation and peak Ct, but vaccinated individuals cleared the infection more quickly. Viral concentrations do not fully explain the differences in infectiousness between SARS-CoV-2 variants, and mitigation measures are needed to limit transmission from vaccinated individuals.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8423226/

Longitudinal analysis of SARS-CoV-2 vaccine breakthrough infections reveal limited infectious virus shedding and restricted tissue distribution

ABSTRACT
The global effort to vaccinate people against SARS-CoV-2 in the midst of an ongoing pandemic has raised questions about the nature of vaccine breakthrough infections and the potential for vaccinated individuals to transmit the virus. These questions have become even more urgent as new variants of concern with enhanced transmissibility, such as Delta, continue to emerge. To shed light on how vaccine breakthrough infections compare with infections in immunologically naive individuals, we examined viral dynamics and infectious virus shedding through daily longitudinal sampling in a small cohort of adults infected with SARS-CoV-2 at varying stages of vaccination. The durations of both infectious virus shedding and symptoms were significantly reduced in vaccinated individuals compared with unvaccinated individuals. We also observed that breakthrough infections are associated with strong tissue compartmentalization and are only detectable in saliva in some cases. These data indicate that vaccination shortens the duration of time of high transmission potential, minimizes symptom duration, and may restrict tissue dissemination.


Virological and serological kinetics of SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant vaccine-breakthrough infections: a multi-center cohort study

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1....28.21261295v1

Methods We conducted a multi-centre retrospective cohort study of patients in Singapore who had received a licensed mRNA vaccine and been admitted to hospital with B.1.617.2 SARS-CoV-2 infection. We compared the clinical features, virological and serological kinetics (anti-nucleocapsid, anti-spike and surrogate virus neutralization titres) between fully vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.

Results
Of 218 individuals with B.1.617.2 infection, 84 had received a mRNA vaccine of which 71 were fully vaccinated, 130 were unvaccinated and 4 received a non-mRNA. Despite significantly older age in the vaccine breakthrough group, the odds of severe COVID-19 requiring oxygen supplementation was significantly lower following vaccination (adjusted odds ratio 0.07 95%CI: 0.015-0.335, p=0.001). PCR cycle threshold (Ct) values were similar between both vaccinated and unvaccinated groups at diagnosis, but viral loads decreased faster in vaccinated individuals. Early, robust boosting of anti-spike protein antibodies was observed in vaccinated patients, however, these titers were significantly lower against B.1.617.2 as compared with the wildtype vaccine strain.

.....

4 studies from 4 different countries showing less Delta transmission in vaccinated despite similar high levels of virus at the time of peak viremia due to more rapid clearance in vaccinated individuals.

This is where the root of "may" and "will likely" come from, not from a hypothetical.

[wooley12]

Thanks Mofro for saying the same fking thing over and over again so the kids in the back of the class MIGHT get it. I un blocked skidog as I'm on pins and needles waiting for his reply.

[schuss]

yep, pretty much requires anyone who wants a job has to get the jab. What a fucking joke. “We have a life saving vaccine against a virus that barely kills 5% of the population it infects and since nobody wants to take it, we’re going to require you to get it in order to make any money!”

You realize that:
A. Our healthcare system can't handle the load of everyone getting it
B. Vaccines are among the least profitable healthcare things,right?

[The Tortoise]

Mofro, can't thank you enough for spelling all of this out.

[Adolf Allerbush]

4 studies from 4 different countries showing less Delta transmission in vaccinated despite similar high levels of virus at the time of peak viremia due to more rapid clearance in vaccinated individuals.

This is where the root of "may" and "will likely" come from, not from a hypothetical.

This is exactly where I don't understand people like Skidog (no offense) and his point of view. "will likely" seems a lot better than doing nothing to me, which I think is where his argument logically concludes. Skidog, can you agree that vaccination "will likely" reduce transmission and therefore get fucking vaccinated (again, not that you aren't)!

You realize that:
A. Our healthcare system can't handle the load of everyone getting it
B. Vaccines are among the least profitable healthcare things,right?

Again, I don't get the mentality of someone like mtuhockey33...healthcare professionals, infectious disease experts, etc. are pleading with you to get vaccinated and you see something like the hospital ICUs overrun with antivaxxing people as some grand conspiracy by infectious disease experts/pharmaceutical companies/doctors/CDC/FDA/US DOD/etc. etc. etc. to trick you into getting some harmful vaccine? Just look at the statistics of who ends up with serious complications to COVID and you'll see it's around 99% unvaxed people....WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? GET VACCINATED ASSHOLE.

[Mofro261]

Thanks Mofro for saying the same fking thing over and over again so the kids in the back of the class MIGHT get it. I un blocked skidog as I'm on pins and needles waiting for his reply.

His original statement wasn't wrong, but it was misleading as it is incomplete. We are seeing similar high levels of virus in both vaxxed and unvaxxed, but with different outcomes for severity of symptoms, length of symptoms, and potential for transmission.

Local data here tracking infection, hospitalization, and death rates in Age-adjusted population:

https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/...-outcomes.aspx

Really it tells the same story that's playing out almost everywhere. Vaccination remains the safest way to achieve some immunity and lessen the impact of Covid if/when an exposure happens.

[skaredshtles]

To piggy back on John B…..HOF thread right here:
https://twitter.com/rexchapman/statu...860217344?s=21

Goddam. That's a *quality* rant right there!

[Deebased]

There's a thought that because delta is just sooooo contagious, there's not really anything that may be able to compete with it. Delta might be the 'one.'

Mu is believed to be more contagious and more evasive of existing antibodies. Hopefully that means the vax efficacy rate doesn't go all the way to 0.

[riser4]

Goddam. That's a *quality* rant right there!

Yup.

[Deebased]

Whenever someone says Big Pharma, I stop paying attention.

Thats good, better to be ignorant of the 10B or so Pharma has spent lobbying domestically in the past couple decades.

No way they expect an ROI after putting so many people in office.

[wooley12]

IMO, he was wrong to infer that there was a reason to doubt the vaccine effectiveness because it is not absolute. I got what you and science were saying days ago. And I'm not that smart.

[summit]

Regarding vaccines for the poorer countries--The US should be responsible for vaccinating Oceania, Germany and Russia for Eurasia, China for Eastasia.

Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia?

[altacoup]

The President will announce that all employers with 100 or more employees will be required to mandate COVID-19 vaccines or require testing at least once a week, and they’ll have to provide paid time off.

The new rule will impact over 80 million workers in private sector.

COVID-19 vaccinations will also be required for more than 17 million health care workers at hospitals and other facilities that receive Medicare or Medicaid reimbursement—roughly 50K providers. (This covers a majority of health care workers nationwide.)

[emoji106]

About fucking time! Too bad it had to get this bad again in order for Biden to do this. I’m sure that behind the scenes plenty of chamber of commerce people were hoping he’d do this. We get vaccination levels were they need to be and COVID-19 will be just the flu. IE life goes along pretty normally. The party of so called personal responsibility has proven that its voters have zero sense of responsibility to themselves, their family and lastly their fellow countrymen and hence the country. Bunch of fake fucking patriots and idiots to top.


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[PNWbrit]

I believe the term you want to use is "disappear" them.

Hey, it worked for you in the '70s.

Well played.

[SumJongGuy]

Thats good, better to be ignorant of the 10B or so Pharma has spent lobbying domestically in the past couple decades.

No way they expect an ROI after putting so many people in office.

Ya like the big donors to DeSantis laughing all the way to the bank as he fills the hospitals with Regeneron Monoclonal Anitbody Treatment customers?

AP: Top Donor Of Gov. Ron DeSantis Is Regeneron Investor

[bennymac]

To piggy back on John B…..HOF thread right here:
https://twitter.com/rexchapman/statu...860217344?s=21

Amazing. Should be required reading.

[mcski]

Def gonna post that on my friend’s page that is currently ranting about fauci being a criminal lol

[bennymac]

Def gonna post that on my friend’s page that is currently ranting about fauci being a criminal lol

You can easily find threads on that if you wade down into the poliass slums

[dunfree]

You can easily find threads on that if you wade down into the poliass slums

Andy dufresne didn’t crawl through a slum.

[subtle plague]

Regarding vaccines for the poorer countries--The US should be responsible for vaccinating Oceania, Germany and Russia for Eurasia, China for Eastasia.

You really want evil Germans to meddle in foreign affairs?
And Russia? I think I'll take any of the EU countries first.

Oh wait. The eu has actually started helping worldwide and has never stopped vaccines from being exported despite the early shortage. Unlike other countries.

BTW. You know that the term Oceania does not include Latin (or any) America. But it's nice that you want America to save the billion Polynesians and new Zealanders. [emoji6]

[Skidog]

There are several studies showing when breakthrough infections do occur the vaxed spread the virus for less time and transmit less viable viral load with Delta. We live in a world of probability, not certainty. That's just the way it is.


What separates dis / misinformation is continuing to repeat outdated facts in support of an agenda even when new information comes to light. It was one of RJ's go to moves, for example.

Propagandists create disinformation by taking advantage of the children's game of telephone. 1) Scientists and researchers provide deep background knowledge within their areas of expertise emphasizing accuracy & uncertainty including caveats over concrete conclusions. 2) Writers and journalists grasp and choose to highlight what they think is important while also taking dramatic license to elevate entertainment. 3) Finally, there's what the nonexpert reader takes away.


The two big topics of misinformation right now are: 1) Vaccinated people transmit at the same rate as the unvaccinated and 2) prior infection offers more protection than vaccination. There was once a lot more uncertainty surrounding both but now there's data showing vaccinated people are less likely to transmit and are better protected than their unvaccinated previously infected counterparts.


If anyone wants to go back and read the original post(s) in context: here it is.

Guess you'd better inform the CDC cause the link I posted was updated a out a week ago.

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[Skidog]

Thanks Mofro for saying the same fking thing over and over again so the kids in the back of the class MIGHT get it. I un blocked skidog as I'm on pins and needles waiting for his reply.

Ok great. I took my info from the CDC site, you guys use it when it suits you and when it doesn't you'll find some other study to refute it. The CDC says those key words I highlighted. Zero definitive answers. Again updated 08/26/2021.

If you think everyday people will search out these obscure studies that they mostly can't understand, well you're crazy. If Delta viral load isn't close to the same vaxxed or unvaxxed the CDC site should state as much clearly. It doesn't say that's

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[Skidog]

His original statement wasn't wrong, but it was misleading as it is incomplete. We are seeing similar high levels of virus in both vaxxed and unvaxxed, but with different outcomes for severity of symptoms, length of symptoms, and potential for transmission.

Local data here tracking infection, hospitalization, and death rates in Age-adjusted population:

https://kingcounty.gov/depts/health/...-outcomes.aspx

Really it tells the same story that's playing out almost everywhere. Vaccination remains the safest way to achieve some immunity and lessen the impact of Covid if/when an exposure happens.

And I agree 100%, get a vax. Doesn't change the fact that a lot is still up in the air with variants and full vax effectiveness. Which is all I said originally.

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[Skidog]

IMO, he was wrong to infer that there was a reason to doubt the vaccine effectiveness because it is not absolute. I got what you and science were saying days ago. And I'm not that smart.

Where did I state I doubt the vaccine effectiveness? It's keeping those vaxxed mostly safe from Delta, but those vaxxed can still transmit viral loads, even without symptoms. The vax is pretty effective.

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[MontuckyFried]

And I agree 100%, get a vax. Doesn't change the fact that a lot is still up in the air with variants and full vax effectiveness. Which is all I said originally.

Uh oh. Watch out for the usual mob, dog.

This be Adolf Allerbush (fitting name)/bennymac/schuss/99% of this place when anybody suggest there juuuuuuust might be some nuance on any given topic: