To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[MultiVerse]

Heh, he can keep adding comorbidities until he 'wins'. What about a vax'd overweight person with diabetes, heart disease, and chronic kidney disease vs an unvax'd Olympic athlete who could totally beat a gorilla in a fight!?!

[ghosthop]

Option C is being both healthy AND vax'd. Option C does not negate the fact that THE BEST way to shift the odds in your favor are to live a healthy lifestyle. Full stop.

Austin, we've meet IRL. I really enjoyed that screening at your shop. I hope you and your family are doing well in Texas.

But your logic is fundamentally flawed. If being in 'ideal' health is x towards avoiding hospitalization and the vaccine is y towards avoiding hospitalization, and you accept that x and y are both non-negative, then x + y >= x or y. If you say that x and y are both positive the x+y > x or y. From a purely selfish perspective, I don't understand the handwringing over getting the vaccine if it helps you gain an ideal outcome.

[skaredshtles]

Austin, we've meet IRL. I really enjoyed that screening at your shop. I hope you and your family are doing well in Texas.

But your logic is fundamentally flawed. If being in 'ideal' health is x towards avoiding hospitalization and the vaccine is y towards avoiding hospitalization, and you accept that x and y are both non-negative, then x + y >= x or y. If you say that x and y are both positive the x+y > x or y. From a purely selfish perspective, I don't understand the handwringing over getting the vaccine if it helps you gain an ideal outcome.

Yeah - well you're not gonna own the libs with that sort of logic.

[Skidog]

facepalm.

THIS VIRUS DOES NOT GIVE A SHIT ABOUT YOUR LIFESTYLE.

anyone can get it. it can fuck you up if you're in shape or a lazy sack of flesh. why take your chances? seriously, why are you like this?

go get your shots

Addressing the "why take your chances"

I think the percentage varies state to state/country to country, but they all seem to be over 95% survival chances. I guess thats maybe why some "take chances" . I don't agree or disagree with that "Chance", but others in the community are at risk if you dont.

That said....go get stuck..

[funkendrenchman]

Haha yea right. Actually, it's not funny, just plain depressing.

43 Percent of Parents Say They Won't Send Kids to School if COVID Vaccine Required: Poll

https://www.newsweek.com/43-percent-...d-poll-1627173

[bennymac]

One of the risk factors for bad covid outcomes is age. Some people like to ignore the fact we get a day older every day (regardless of diet, body size, exercise levels, medical conditions).

[bagtagley]

Sweet, let the private schools deal with overcrowding.

[skaredshtles]

Haha yea right. Actually, it's not funny, just plain depressing.

43 Percent of Parents Say They Won't Send Kids to School if COVID Vaccine Required: Poll

https://www.newsweek.com/43-percent-...d-poll-1627173

Silver lining: perhaps teachers will get reasonable sized classrooms through this voluntary removal of students from the system?

My guess - 98% of those parents are full of shit, and will get their kids vaccinated if it's required for school.

[MontuckyFried]

Austin, we've meet IRL. I really enjoyed that screening at your shop. I hope you and your family are doing well in Texas.

But your logic is fundamentally flawed. If being in 'ideal' health is x towards avoiding hospitalization and the vaccine is y towards avoiding hospitalization, and you accept that x and y are both non-negative, then x + y >= x or y. If you say that x and y are both positive the x+y > x or y. From a purely selfish perspective, I don't understand the handwringing over getting the vaccine if it helps you gain an ideal outcome.

Go back and re-read my post, ghost. Option C literally is your example of x + y >= x or y.

As for everyone else, it is just as I predicted in that everybody would be focused on my examples A and B, and completely not read C.
Shall I quote myself: "HOWEVER (and I know all you idiots are going to completely miss this point as you read the above without reading this part too), Option C is being both healthy AND vax'd."
And see my Volvo analogy. For the umpeeth freaking time. I'm not even arguing against vaccines here. I haven't in like a damn year when even everyone's beloved VP, Kamala Harris was questioning the vaccine and saying she wouldn't take it if Trump told her to take it. When Biden was saying how concerned he was about rushing a vaccine too fast. We ALL had questions. That's ok. Time has gone on. I've evolved my position, and am now on board. Have been for many months now, but everyone ignores every time I've said as much based on shit I said like a year ago. What the hell is the problem with this place?

You used to be cool IRL too, but where do you get that I'm "handwringing over getting the vaccine?" other than the usual anti-Montucky circle jerk you all love so much. Anything recently? Everybody is so blind with bias that they keep literally missing entire sentences where I am literally agreeing with all you morans. But God forbid one deviates from the Borg on something here and there around this place.

"HEALTH? WUTS THAT?! JUST TAKE THE JAB!"
"I have."
"Well... SHUT UP!"

[MultiVerse]

It's not A and B, and completely not read C — your ordering is wrong:

You had C >>> B >>> A when it should be C >>> A >>> B


By all means focus on your health too but the top priority is getting vaccinated. An unvaccinated minority that wants to focus on other things like health and ivermectin is putting the vaccinated majority at undue risk. Because even if a healthy unvax'd person is likely to recover, they are much more likely to be symptomatic spreading viable virus for much longer than a vax'd unhealthy person.

[old_newguy]

Go back and re-read my post, ghost. Option C literally is your example of x + y >= x or y.

As for everyone else, it is just as I predicted in that everybody would be focused on my examples A and B, and completely not read C.
Shall I quote myself: "HOWEVER (and I know all you idiots are going to completely miss this point as you read the above without reading this part too), Option C is being both healthy AND vax'd."
And see my Volvo analogy. For the umpeeth freaking time. I'm not even arguing against vaccines here. I haven't in like a damn year when even everyone's beloved VP, Kamala Harris was questioning the vaccine and saying she wouldn't take it if Trump told her to take it. When Biden was saying how concerned he was about rushing a vaccine too fast. We ALL had questions. That's ok. Time has gone on. I've evolved my position, and am now on board. Have been for many months now, but everyone ignores every time I've said as much based on shit I said like a year ago. What the hell is the problem with this place?

You used to be cool IRL too, but where do you get that I'm "handwringing over getting the vaccine?" other than the usual anti-Montucky circle jerk you all love so much. Anything recently? Everybody is so blind with bias that they keep literally missing entire sentences where I am literally agreeing with all you morans. But God forbid one deviates from the Borg on something here and there around this place.

"HEALTH? WUTS THAT?! JUST TAKE THE JAB!"
"I have."
"Well... SHUT UP!"

Please articulate the policies that move the needle on COVID illness and death in a 12-18 month timeframe with respect to having a healthier society that is more resistant to COVID.

Also, please articulate how much additional money you would spend on implementing this policy and how it differs from the current federal and state spending.

[The AD]

Have been for many months now, but everyone ignores every time I've said as much based on shit I said like a year ago. What the hell is the problem with this place?

You do realize you've got a history of saying some pretty ignorant shit here, right? We're not all just going to forget about that overnight.

[mcphee]

Go back and re-read my post, ghost. Option C literally is your example of x + y >= x or y.

As for everyone else, it is just as I predicted in that everybody would be focused on my examples A and B, and completely not read C.
Shall I quote myself: "HOWEVER (and I know all you idiots are going to completely miss this point as you read the above without reading this part too), Option C is being both healthy AND vax'd."
And see my Volvo analogy. For the umpeeth freaking time. I'm not even arguing against vaccines here. I haven't in like a damn year when even everyone's beloved VP, Kamala Harris was questioning the vaccine and saying she wouldn't take it if Trump told her to take it. When Biden was saying how concerned he was about rushing a vaccine too fast. We ALL had questions. That's ok. Time has gone on. I've evolved my position, and am now on board. Have been for many months now, but everyone ignores every time I've said as much based on shit I said like a year ago. What the hell is the problem with this place?

You used to be cool IRL too, but where do you get that I'm "handwringing over getting the vaccine?" other than the usual anti-Montucky circle jerk you all love so much. Anything recently? Everybody is so blind with bias that they keep literally missing entire sentences where I am literally agreeing with all you morans. But God forbid one deviates from the Borg on something here and there around this place.

"HEALTH? WUTS THAT?! JUST TAKE THE JAB!"
"I have."
"Well... SHUT UP!"

Austin rn:

people hate me because i'm a courageous truth teller.

[schuss]

Have seriously fit people died of COVID? Yes, absolutely. Healthy person does not always mean healthy immune system, and even a healthy immune system has the chance of rolling proverbial snake eyes in its response. The vaccine gives you loaded dice. So what would you rather shoot craps with - regular or loaded dice? Remember, you die if you roll snake eyes.

[Buster Highmen]

Because it IS "one" of the best ways. I put being in optimal health at #1. This is not even in dispute, so no. To answer your question, vaccinations are NOT the single best way to protect yourself.

I had read that being in good health helps, but there's lots and lots of documentation of very healthy people getting long term effects.
So that claim is incorrect.

[ill-advised strategy]

Calling it “the jab” seems to be a high correlation with the misinformation media.

[puma]

Montucky, did you ever answer the questions below? Apologies if I missed it. I believe it was directed at you, and I doubt any one cares or would be surprised, but my answers are Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes:

---
Are vaccines effective?
Are vaccines safe?
Should everyone who is able to do so get vaccinated?
Is COVID serious?
Should people who are generally young and healthy take measures to protect themselves from COVID?
Are masks an effective piece in the transmission mitigation puzzle?

---

I have not followed your history here closely, but it appears you are much like someone in my family. I do not talk to this family member about it anymore, but he posts crap on facebook that he cherry picks to give him an avenue to ask questions about mask effectiveness, vaccine effectiveness, and general screw the government because I don't trust them and we should all just do what is right. (I don't totally disagree with the last point) I think he just likes to argue with folks of facebook. I consider this practice for the family member...

I would love to hear your answers to the above. To preempt you not answering, and asking a question, I'll put it out there for you:

Question: Do you think fitness \ health makes you more likely to NOT get sick from Covid?
Answer: Yes, I think being healthy\in shape is a very good idea from not only a covid perspective, but for most everything. There are certainly examples of healthy younger folks getting hit REAL hard by covid, but it would appear being old, fat, not active are all factors working against you if you get covid...

[rideit]

Sums up my thoughts exactly.

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/...-fucking-fucks

[MontuckyFried]

Montucky, did you ever answer the questions below? Apologies if I missed it. I believe it was directed at you, and I doubt any one cares or would be surprised, but my answers are Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, and Yes:
---
Are vaccines effective?
Are vaccines safe?
Should everyone who is able to do so get vaccinated?
Is COVID serious?
Should people who are generally young and healthy take measures to protect themselves from COVID?
Are masks an effective piece in the transmission mitigation puzzle?
---.

I have not answered that list. And apologies for missing it. Tough to keep up when you check once in a while and we're 19 pages deeper into the game of an entire cadre of shit talkers dog-piling you over something they completely missed the point on.

To respond directly, the answer is "YES" to all of those things. But also, yes, I've questioned each one of those things before coming to my conclusions. Forgive me, but that's easy to do when you see the nations leaders making the rules not following their own guidance on things to which I've pointed out the hypocrisy time and time again, which people have taken as me currently being somehow anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-anything. If only all the resident assholes here saw how I actually live my life in practice as opposed to our politicians (cough cough French Laundry cough cough Obama bday party cough cough). I know I've talked a lot of trash over the last year, but in reality in my own personal life I've done all the "right" things. We're still allowed to question things, though. Unlike a bunch of the clowns here who like to wear masks in their car by themselves on a lonely stretch of highway, I don't simply go "Derp. Whadeva you say boss" when the idiots in charge say we gotta wear a mask outside by ourselves. But people here take that as I'm "anti-mask" somehow. No. Just like to exercise some common sense in daily living is all. Which, yes, includes living healthier, which I've made a conscientious effort to improve on substantially over the last 18 months. No government campaign required to get me to do so. Haha.

[SumJongGuy]

Sums up my thoughts exactly.

https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/...-fucking-fucks

I'd add.. "Oh so you have a genuine allergy or legit medical condition that prevents you from taking the vaccine?? We love you but WEAR A FUCKING MASK if you can't get vaccinated"..

[skiJ]

f. too late to the party. see post 11738.

I'll leave it here for now - Just because.

I appreciate the work several of you are doing : LSL. M.Unicorn, for starters. THANK YOU ! !


so...
- - - - -

guys... I am glad I stepped away from this thread for about eighteen hours. . .

it appears a couple of us are addicted to the argument ( addictive behavior is what it is )

reading through the last five pages, I have a couple of observations and a few concerns -

observations :
it is my understanding(,) MF is vaccinated - and advocating vaccinating ;
it is my impression, MF perceives the pandemic as being ( unresolvable. my term. from my reading, no quotes, real or projected, he is concerned that as long as one person remains unvaccinated, the pandemic cannot be overcome. My impression. )

one of my concerns - and it is a Big concern - is MF still believes Good health is more important to outcome than Vaccination !
as someone else has pointed-out, this is ,,, NOT-True ! !
The virus Absolutely does NOT care how healthy you are ;
as others have well-made the point : Being VACCINATED is the best way to promote immunity ( Both individual immunity, And community 'immunity' ( I will leave the statistics to others ) )

there are also some concerns I have about MF's perceptions and claims as he pursues the argument ;
he has well summarized these concerns in a couple of posts
( I apologize for not having better forum/post management techniques )

I am going to add a few thoughts with the hope this discussion can move in a different direction...
- - - - -

Originally Posted by paulster2626 View Post
What exactly ARE your points, though? Maybe just clear it up instead of talking in circles.

Are vaccines effective?
YES
Are vaccines safe?
(pending)
MF, I do not believe the Safety of the vaccine(s) is pending ; I believe the vaccines are considered Safe.
Safety is not an absolute. this means there may be an infrequent adverse reaction ( possibly even death ) ; if you need absolute Safety, you will not find it here. but to claim the Safety of the vaccine(s) is pending ,,, I believe is Not-true.
the Safe-ty of the vaccine(s) has been proven And is widely accepted ;

Should everyone who is able to do so get vaccinated?
(pending)
see above - there is some significant ambiguity to this question., But as a matter of Public Health - If you accept that covid
is a matter of Public Health - as a matter of Public Health, everyone who can be vaccinated Should get vaccinated.
( if you must pursue the argument as a matter of individual 'freedom' ,,, see the post that talks about everyone living in isolation ( I want my comments to reflect Real world, Real life. Not the hypothetical argument ))

Is COVID serious?
YES
Thank you.

Should people who are generally young and healthy take measures to protect themselves from COVID?
(pending)
again, see above - this is a skewed question - not only Should "generally young and healthy (people) take measures to protect themselves from COVID" - the single thing that they can do to protect both themselves - AND also their community - is
be vaccinated !
while I understand your belief that Being healthy is more important, specifically relating to covid, it simply is Not-true
( see LSL's post : given current practices, the day will come when everyone will have covid (coronavirus, the virus; not necessarily clinical disease ( is, I believe, what LSL meant ) )

Are masks an effective piece in the transmission mitigation puzzle?
(pending)
again, I believe it has been shown that masks interfere with transmission, creating a barrier to airborne virus. I acknowledge, it was not long ago, when the idea that a fully vaccinated person did not need to wear a mask was Policy, But If the goal is the 'effective mitigation of transmission' I believe the studies that claim masks provide a barrier.
as above, like Safe-ty, if by effective you need 100%, you will not find that here. ( again, I will leave the statistics to others. My goal is not the argument, but to promote practices that lead to a solution. )

It's okay to change your mind as you learn new data. I've been wrong about a lot of shit in the past 18 months. It's all good man.

- - -

Originally Posted by MontuckyFried View Post
Because it IS "one" of the best ways. I put being in optimal health at #1. This is not even in dispute, so no. To answer your question, vaccinations are NOT the single best way to protect yourself.

Don't believe me? Then ask yourself which of these two scenarios would you rather be under?:
(A) Morbidly obese and vaccinated
(B) Physically fit, health food nut, peak shape and unvaccinated

That alone should say what #1 and #2 priorities are, HOWEVER (and I know all you idiots are going to completely miss this point as you read the above without reading this part too), Option C is being both healthy AND vax'd. Option C does not negate the fact that THE BEST way to shift the odds in your favor are to live a healthy lifestyle. Full stop

MF ,,, no. a thousand times - no.
being vaccinated is the most important thing anyone can do to protect themselves from covid. ( the statistic that support this are found in several other posts )
. . . it would be nice if pathogens ( including the covid virus ) were thoughtful, and recognized fitness, but fitness Only Maybe provides resistance to disease. in too many cases, and over and over and over again, the healthiest of people have died from covid.

I won't pursue the argument -

... there is just no reasoning with some people...

MF says he is vaccinated. supports vaccination. and
it is my impression, is concerned the pandemic will not be resolved.

it appears there are dozens of people Just in the pages of this thread who are working every day, some professionally, some just as a matter of civic Responsibility, to see we move beyond this.

please join us.


respectfully. tj

[Ted Striker]

your logic is fundamentally flawed.

Option C literally is your example of x + y >= x or y.

As for everyone else, it is just as I predicted in that everybody would be focused on my examples A and B, and completely not read C

Your logic is still flawed, and it's still a false dilemma. There aren't enough letters in the alphabet to list the probabilities and range of outcomes.

If you lived on the moon, your chance of catching covid is zero.

[Adolf Allerbush]

I have not answered that list. And apologies for missing it. Tough to keep up when you check once in a while and we're 19 pages deeper into the game of an entire cadre of shit talkers dog-piling you over something they completely missed the point on.

To respond directly, the answer is "YES" to all of those things. But also, yes, I've questioned each one of those things before coming to my conclusions. Forgive me, but that's easy to do when you see the nations leaders making the rules not following their own guidance on things to which I've pointed out the hypocrisy time and time again, which people have taken as me currently being somehow anti-vax, anti-mask, anti-anything. If only all the resident assholes here saw how I actually live my life in practice as opposed to our politicians (cough cough French Laundry cough cough Obama bday party cough cough). I know I've talked a lot of trash over the last year, but in reality in my own personal life I've done all the "right" things. We're still allowed to question things, though. Unlike a bunch of the clowns here who like to wear masks in their car by themselves on a lonely stretch of highway, I don't simply go "Derp. Whadeva you say boss" when the idiots in charge say we gotta wear a mask outside by ourselves. But people here take that as I'm "anti-mask" somehow. No. Just like to exercise some common sense in daily living is all. Which, yes, includes living healthier, which I've made a conscientious effort to improve on substantially over the last 18 months. No government campaign required to get me to do so. Haha.

Proof or shut the fuck up. Your proof better be of someone in a significant position of power saying that people all alone in the wilderness away from any other people should wear masks. If you can't prove that you are lying and you can go fuck yourself. All you do around here is muddy the waters during a pandemic...you are consistently proven wrong over and over, yet you never admit it and carry on repeatedly. It's tiresome...stop it.

Your logic is still flawed, and it's still a false dilemma. There aren't enough letters in the alphabet to list the probabilities and range of outcomes.

If you lived on the moon, your chance of catching covid is zero.

He's actually not saying that...he's saying that being "healthy" (i.e., exercise frequently, not obese, eat healthily, etc.) is better than a morbidly obese person getting vaccinated, if it's a binary choice. He is wrong...being vaccinated and obese provides a better chance of combatting COVID-19 than not. Full stop. He is wrong.

[bennymac]

"If only all the residents assholes here saw how I actually live my life in practice" - then seizes the opportunity to take partisan political shots

"You don't know me or my situation or how I live my life" - proceeds to label stranger with a mask on in their car by themselves as sheep

Maybe start by reflecting on your own hypocrisy?

[liv2ski]

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/covid...b0aac9c01ea4c2

Getting the coronavirus vaccine provides one obvious and significant health benefit: It protects you from getting seriously sick or dying if you come into contact with the virus.

That, in itself, is amazing. But new research published on Wednesday points to another striking benefit of rolling up your sleeves that should not be dismissed: People who get vaccinated may experience significant improvements in their mental health.

In the study, published in the journal PLoS One, researchers tracked people who received a first dose of any coronavirus vaccine between December 2020 and March 2021.

They found that those who had received a shot were less likely to show signs of mild or severe depression than those who had not been vaccinated, including those who intended to get vaccinated but had not yet been able to.

And given that mental health is every bit as important as physical health, it’s yet another reason for everyone who is eligible to get vaccinated.