To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[TBS]

FL judge rules DeSantis is a fucking fascist, schools can mandate masks
https://www.news4jax.com/news/florid...mask-mandates/

[old goat]

Another question to ask is, when the government exercises it's emergency police power to keep us safe (like require widespread vaccine passports) is that exercise of power necessary and is it the least restrictive alternative? If not, the government loses legitimacy (crying wolf).

Real world example-masks outside at ski areas last winter. Compliance was abysmal and ultimately, requiring masks in outdoor settings prior to Delta has been deemed ineffective (again, crying wolf).

Answer these questions:

What about legitimate medical exemptions? Do they get a card? How do they get a card?

As vaccine efficacy from two doses wains, do we update the vaccine passport rules to include booster shots? What's the point of saying only those with a card can enter when having that card no longer proves you are any less likely to transmit COVID?

It's not easy for the government to enforce laws when a huge swath of the country disagrees with the law. For instance, if you don't want people to smoke weed educate them on the downside of weed rather than prohibit it.

Finally, the government can exercise emergency police powers to keep us safe. So, if the government determines vaccine passports are necessary to keep people entering a particular location safe, then that is allowed. The government CAN NOT use emergency police powers to punish people for not doing what the government wants them to do. In other words, the government cannot use emergency police powers for punitive reasons. Half the people posting here don't seem to understand the difference.

OK--now we're getting somewhere with actual issues specific to requiring proof of vaccination.

Is requiring vaccination necessary and is it the least restrictive means to the desired end. I think so. First of all, proof of vaccination should only apply to discretionary activities--not grocery shopping, entry into a hospital for treatment, entry into the DMV, etc. Will requiring proof of vaccination (POV) reduce the spread of the virus? I have to defer to experts on that. I think school is out on the subject and right now proof of vaccination in most places is theoretical and up to individual venues. As time goes on we should have better data from places that do and do not require proof of vaccination. Remember that there are two purposes for requiring POV--to prevent transmission at a given venue and to encourage people to get vaccinated. The first purpose may or may not be valid;; the second is IMO. There is a more restrictive policy than requiring POV to enter--requiring everyone to be vaccinated. We're not there yet.

I agree some covid restrictions--closing state parks in CA for example--were not necessary or effective. Any restrictions imposed should be re-evaluated based on data, including requiring POV. Although any time a policy changes based on new data the media freak out.

Certainly a policy has to have broad support to be enforceable. I would expect enforcement of requiring POV to be difficult. My niece and her husband recently flew from San Diego to Reno on SW. Many passengers unmasked. The airline can throw off one or two unmasked passengers. When it's dozens there's little they can do. I don't think any venue should require POV without figuring out how to enforce it and then doing it. It is easier to enforce POV than masking because someone will have to check at the door and you can't unvaccinate like you can remove a mask once you're in. Still, enforcement is bound to result in a lot of difficult encounters at the door with employees not paid nearly enough to deal with them.

Yes medical exemptees should get a card by sending the issuer a doctor's note specifying the reason (another loss of freedom, alas). There are very few reasons for a medical exemption. Primarily allergy to the shot. If public health experts determine that proof of booster is necessary then you set a deadline reasonably far enough off for people to get one.

Using the POV requirement to induce people to get vaccinated is not punitive. It is to protect the public health and make people safe by getting as many people vaccinated as possible. If something is punitive it means that no matter what you do the punishment sticks. In the case of POV you can reverse the "punishment" by getting a shot. It's like the difference between a moving violation and a fix-it ticket. (Unless you're Black and the cops shoot you for a busted tail light.)

[yeahman]

Texas Anti-Mask 'Freedom Rally' Organizer Fighting For His Life With COVID-19

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-anti-ma...045722778.html

“When he first felt symptoms on July 26, his wife told the Standard-Times, he refused to get tested or seek medical care. He instead began treating himself with a cocktail of Vitamin C, zinc, aspirin and ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug that has been falsely promoted as an effective treatment for COVID-19 by conservative media. He was taken to the hospital on July 30.”




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It does not appear to matter how many dozens of these stories play out like this, it still doesn't seem to penetrate the brain fog of the deniers. Only thing that seems to make an impression is when they lose a loved one of their own--and even then they often won't admit they got suckered. Pride goeth before a fall and all that. It's truly bizarre to watch it unfold like this when it's so unnecessary.

[AK47bp]

Are most people getting sick off these shots?

My arm was sore as hell for a few days and I lacked some energy the next day but otherwise I was fine.

Wasn’t aware that being mildly sick for a day was such a scare factor for people but makes sense with those types. I mean a lot of these people need to carry guns to go grocery shopping.


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[Skidog]

I take your concern over lower % of vaccination among minorities as being genuine, so I think looking to VT for ways to increase vaccination rates elsewhere would be a good place to start as well as other examples where there has been success. I do not understand why you keep bringing this up with regards to proving vaccination status at private businesses to protect the vulnerable (i.e., under 12 years old, immunocompromised, etc.).

I am truly interested in your perspective and Altasnob's, since you two appear to be of one mind on this topic, so I'll ask again, what about the freedom of people who cannot get vaccinated or for whom the vaccinations are not as effective? Shouldn't they have the freedom to safely enter private businesses if those businesses require proof of vaccination status? If not, why are you ok with taking away their freedom in this manner? It hits close to home because I have kids that are under 12 and I have a sibling that is a organ transplant recipient. the latter is a pharmacist and the breadwinner of her family. She can't quit her job to avoid interacting with the public and unfortunately there's a good chunk of the population that refuses to get vaccinated, and not for legitimate reasons. Additionally this group of people tend to have a difficult time with mask wearing. My sister got the vaccine, Pfizer, but because she's on anti-rejection medication for her organ transplant the effectiveness of the vaccines is thought to be quite low. Should she, and others like her, risk their lives because people don't want to have private businesses tell them to prove vaccination status before entering?



Even so, see example above. Thoughts?

I am being genuine.

I don't have an answer, if I did I likely would have little time to post here and i'd probably have a really important job. I wish there was a magic fix. We fucked around in this country too long and its coming home to roost in ways we likely never expected.

And while immunocompromised, in some situations, can get the vax, many still cannot. small group, agreed. At this point getting these exemptions is as simple as paying a Dr or getting your local priest to sign some shit...

Ill say it again, i wish everyone would get stuck, we wouldnt be having this conversation.

[XXX-er]

USA kills more people than any other country is something you can't ignore

[wooley12]

It's in our national anthem. It's who we are. It's what we do.

[AK47bp]

USA kills more people than any other country is something you can't ignore

“We cherish peace with all our hearts,and don’t care how many men, women, and children we kill to get it“

John Cena - Suicide Squad.


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[seano732]

Well this is totally fucked. Good job, Texas:
https://twitter.com/davidbegnaud/sta...989523971?s=21

[MultiVerse]

For all the talk of vaccine mandates, we should recognize America’s vaccine policies are a contradictory mess in no small part because of the way our government is structured. People should rest a little easier if they're concerned about federal mandates because the federal government is limited in what they can do. The feds can require vaccines for the military and federal employees as well as mandate masks on federal property. They can also mandate vaccines for foreign travelers, but currently only require a negative test to enter the country.

Everything else is up to state and local government along with private businesses. It's all very piecemeal and confusing. It's less of a slippery slope on the way to Oceania and more like Ben Simmons who cannot make a jump shot outside 10 feet.

[thedude2340]

i think he was referring to this (from your link)
Attachment 383708

or per K2's link here
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...37#post6389537

Understood. Was trying to point out his comment that America has killed more of its people than any other country is false as a %.
Not to diminish our sometimes poor efforts, rather firing back at a Canadian that likes to find reasons to dunk on the US around every corner.

[goldenboy]

Are most people getting sick off these shots?

My arm was sore as hell for a few days and I lacked some energy the next day but otherwise I was fine.

Wasn’t aware that being mildly sick for a day was such a scare factor for people but makes sense with those types. I mean a lot of these people need to carry guns to go grocery shopping.


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My personal experience was that I would have had no problem working after shot #1, but I would have had a hard time after #2 working a job that required me to be on my feet all day. Fever, aches, exhausted because I couldn't sleep, it was like a bad flu for me for 24 hours. It's a legit concern for some people.

[riser4]

My personal experience was that I would have had no problem working after shot #1, but I would have had a hard time after #2 working a job that required me to be on my feet all day. Fever, aches, exhausted because I couldn't sleep, it was like a bad flu for me for 24 hours. It's a legit concern for some people.

Ya. Work after shot #1 was fine. Shot #2 sent me to bed about 20 hours later.

[skaredshtles]

USA kills more people than any other country is something you can't ignore

[Dantheman]

My personal experience was that I would have had no problem working after shot #1, but I would have had a hard time after #2 working a job that required me to be on my feet all day. Fever, aches, exhausted because I couldn't sleep, it was like a bad flu for me for 24 hours. It's a legit concern for some people.

No effects from Pfizer shot #1, but I was absolutely wrecked the day after shot #2 and it took 3 days to feel fully recovered. Not a chance in hell I could have worked the day after shot #2, I could barely get out of bed.

[ticketchecker]

2021 Drag Queen name: Maxine Vandate


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[skaredshtles]

For all the talk of vaccine mandates, we should recognize America’s vaccine policies are a contradictory mess in no small part because of the way our government is structured. People should rest a little easier if they're concerned about federal mandates because the federal government is limited in what they can do. The feds can require vaccines for the military and federal employees as well as mandate masks on federal property. They can also mandate vaccines for foreign travelers, but currently only require a negative test to enter the country.

Everything else is up to state and local government along with private businesses. It's all very piecemeal and confusing. It's less of a slippery slope on the way to Oceania and more like Ben Simmons who cannot make a jump shot outside 10 feet.

They can require a vaccine for *domestic* air travel, can't they? I'd think that mandate would get another BIG chunk of people on board with the stabby-stabby.

[XXX-er]

Understood. Was trying to point out his comment that America has killed more of its people than any other country is false as a %.
Not to diminish our sometimes poor efforts, rather firing back at a Canadian that likes to find reasons to dunk on the US around every corner.

yeah other countries beat USA on deaths per million but so much winning on the overall total

I kind of expected Brazil to catch up on the overall but they havent

[skaredshtles]

Ya. Work after shot #1 was fine. Shot #2 sent me to bed about 20 hours later.

Same - I lost a day after #2.

[liv2ski]

No effects from Pfizer shot #1, but I was absolutely wrecked the day after shot #2 and it took 3 days to feel fully recovered. Not a chance in hell I could have worked the day after shot #2, I could barely get out of bed.

Odd, as my wife was similar to your experience where as I had a sore arm after #1, but nuthin after #2. Can't people just warn the boss they are going in Thursday or Friday for the shot and may need to call in sick? I mean if you're sick from anything else you call in, so what is the difference.

[Skidog]

They can require a vaccine for *domestic* air travel, can't they? I'd think that mandate would get another BIG chunk of people on board with the stabby-stabby.

They CAN, but no proof of other vaccines is needed currently so.....would be interesting to see them try. I say ACLU field day.

[californiagrown]

Are most people getting sick off these shots?

My arm was sore as hell for a few days and I lacked some energy the next day but otherwise I was fine.

Wasn’t aware that being mildly sick for a day was such a scare factor for people but makes sense with those types. I mean a lot of these people need to carry guns to go grocery shopping.


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I was flattened. Got the J&J shot at 10am, and about 10 hrs later around 8pm it felt like the flu. then a BAD flu where i took a couple sit down scalding showers shivering while hallucinating. Awful. And then around noon the next day i felt completely fine, just super tired from not having really slept the night before. It was bad, but it was short.

[Skidog]

Odd, as my wife was similar to your experience where as I had a sore arm after #1, but nuthin after #2. Can't people just warn the boss they are going in Thursday or Friday for the shot and may need to call in sick? I mean if you're sick from anything else you call in, so what is the difference.

Tell that to those people that arent getting the shot because of fear of losing a job they need to pay rent. Again..idyllic "white guy" response. Im not faulting you for it as you're hardly alone..., but it isn't that simple for a large population. Check the statistics.

[goldenboy]

Can't people just warn the boss they are going in Thursday or Friday for the shot and may need to call in sick? I mean if you're sick from anything else you call in, so what is the difference.

I think the discussion was for those who can't afford to take a day off

[liv2ski]

Can't afford 1 day off? You have a shitty job earning $12 an hour. After taxes is like $70 bring home for the day. You eat Kraft Mac & cheese for a week. Been there done that as a youngster when I moved out. Not ideal, but you will live and now your vaccinated too. Winning!