To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[wooley12]

Don't be obtuse, man. How are we going to call out the extremists for CRT if we don't bring race into it?

Trolls are people too. "Poor troubled souls" as my mom would call them.

[k2skier112]

Yeah I made absolutely no point?

There are at least a few here who agree there is a problem here in regards to vax IDs.



Sent from my Pixel 4a (5G) using TGR Forums mobile app

just like the 5% of scientists that are AGW deniers, fuck off troll

[altasnob]

The question to ask is not "does requiring proof of vaccination infringe on my personal freedom?" It does. No argument there. The question is "does this new restriction on my personal freedom benefit society or protect those who cannot protect themselves, and is it worth it."

Another question to ask is, when the government exercises it's emergency police power to keep us safe (like require widespread vaccine passports) is that exercise of power necessary and is it the least restrictive alternative? If not, the government loses legitimacy (crying wolf).

Real world example-masks outside at ski areas last winter. Compliance was abysmal and ultimately, requiring masks in outdoor settings prior to Delta has been deemed ineffective (again, crying wolf).

Answer these questions:

What about legitimate medical exemptions? Do they get a card? How do they get a card?

As vaccine efficacy from two doses wains, do we update the vaccine passport rules to include booster shots? What's the point of saying only those with a card can enter when having that card no longer proves you are any less likely to transmit COVID?

It's not easy for the government to enforce laws when a huge swath of the country disagrees with the law. For instance, if you don't want people to smoke weed educate them on the downside of weed rather than prohibit it.

Finally, the government can exercise emergency police powers to keep us safe. So, if the government determines vaccine passports are necessary to keep people entering a particular location safe, then that is allowed. The government CAN NOT use emergency police powers to punish people for not doing what the government wants them to do. In other words, the government cannot use emergency police powers for punitive reasons. Half the people posting here don't seem to understand the difference.

[Kinnikinnick]

Texas Anti-Mask 'Freedom Rally' Organizer Fighting For His Life With COVID-19

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-anti-ma...045722778.html

“When he first felt symptoms on July 26, his wife told the Standard-Times, he refused to get tested or seek medical care. He instead began treating himself with a cocktail of Vitamin C, zinc, aspirin and ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug that has been falsely promoted as an effective treatment for COVID-19 by conservative media. He was taken to the hospital on July 30.”




Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Skidog]

Why does that matter?

Sadly these are some of the hardest hit communities, the "minorities". Did you not know this? I know rural VT is and can be shady, but you dont see the same inner city stuff some people have been living with for generations. Another poster said it...basically they don't trust or dont have the means to go get vaxxed. Lots of stop and frisk in VT? Daily shootings? Can it be handled better? Sure, but how? thats the million dollar question.

[Skidog]

Another question to ask is, when the government exercises it's emergency police power to keep us safe (like require widespread vaccine passports) is that exercise of power necessary and is it the least restrictive alternative? If not, the government loses legitimacy (crying wolf).

Real world example-masks outside at ski areas last winter. Compliance was abysmal and ultimately, requiring masks in outdoor settings prior to Delta has been deemed ineffective (again, crying wolf).

Answer these questions:

What about legitimate medical exemptions? Do they get a card? How do they get a card?

As vaccine efficacy from two doses wains, do we update the vaccine passport rules to include booster shots? What's the point of saying only those with a card can enter when having that card no longer proves you are any less likely to transmit COVID?

It's not easy for the government to enforce laws when a huge swath of the country disagrees with the law. For instance, if you don't want people to smoke weed educate them on the downside of weed rather than prohibit it.

Finally, the government can exercise emergency police powers to keep us safe. So, if the government determines vaccine passports are necessary to keep people entering a particular location safe, then that is allowed. The government CAN NOT use emergency police powers to punish people for not doing what the government wants them to do. In other words, the government cannot use emergency police powers for punitive reasons. Half the people posting here don't seem to understand the difference.

AMEN.....

[skaredshtles]

Texas Anti-Mask 'Freedom Rally' Organizer Fighting For His Life With COVID-19

https://news.yahoo.com/texas-anti-ma...045722778.html

“When he first felt symptoms on July 26, his wife told the Standard-Times, he refused to get tested or seek medical care. He instead began treating himself with a cocktail of Vitamin C, zinc, aspirin and ivermectin, an anti-parasitic drug that has been falsely promoted as an effective treatment for COVID-19 by conservative media. He was taken to the hospital on July 30.”

[Bunion 2020]

Real world example-masks outside at ski areas last winter. Compliance was abysmal and ultimately, requiring masks in outdoor settings prior to Delta has been deemed ineffective (again, crying wolf).

Maybe at your ski area of choice it was abysmal, at the area I skied most people were pretty good about it, and please show where a credible study has shown that masking in large outdoor group settings such as lift queues was ineffective.

It's not easy for the government to enforce laws when a huge swath of the country disagrees with the law. For instance, if you don't want people to smoke weed educate them on the downside of weed rather than prohibit it.

Many states have flat out legalized it.

OK, what about Tobacco smoking indoors in public places, it is prohibited by law and that seems to work. That seems particularly applicable, it is an activity harmful to people around the smoker... so, you can't do it.

I am ok with not forcing people to vaccinate but if that is their choice then there should be options for those who don't wish to chance infection from being exposed to them.

Thx.

[Peruvian]

And what percentage of that population is non white may I ask?

Your question is clumsily worded as the overall percentage of non-whites is not important. But to get to the point, the % of vaccinated BIPOC Vermonters is 74.3%. Slightly lower than the VT overall, but still way ahead of many, many states.

[Peruvian]

Just curious where you're getting this number... it seems high from the info I've seen recently.

https://covidactnow.org/us/vermont-vt/?s=22191145

See link above.

[riser4]

Plenty of rural poor here in VT, so vax stations have been set up at grocery stores, farmer's markets, on pullouts on the side of the road (I'm not kidding), or a simple phone call will get someone to come out to your house. Of course the VT culture is one of taking care of one another (see stories after Hurricane Irene for proof) as opposed to some bullshit rugged individualism, so folks do it for their neighbors instead of for themselves. We have over 85% of the population that has started vaccination, so maybe it's a model to consider.

85% of ELIGIBLE. I get a little worked up that they don't say % of total population. That's the number we need to focus on. Because of the 12 and under that people keep ignoring when they talk about unvaxxed people.

[jono]

As vaccine efficacy from two doses wains, do we update the vaccine passport rules to include booster shots? What's the point of saying only those with a card can enter when having that card no longer proves you are any less likely to transmit COVID?

Objection. Question assumes facts not in evidence. You know the difference between "less effective" than when antibodies are highest (but still having T and B cell immunity) and not being "any less likely to transmit." Step it up.

[skaredshtles]

See link above.

Thanks for the info!

[riser4]

Your question is clumsily worded as the overall percentage of non-whites is not important. But to get to the point, the % of vaccinated BIPOC Vermonters is 74.3%. Slightly lower than the VT overall, but still way ahead of many, many states.

Interesting footnote about BIPOC vax sites here in VT. Two of my kids were vaxxed at a BIPOC site even though we are not BIPOC. They had leftover doses and were calling everyone they could think of and waving down passers by. Many thanks to the Abenaki Tribal Council in Swanton. Too bad they could not take that mobile once it was setup stationary.

[Peruvian]

85% of ELIGIBLE. I get a little worked up that they don't say % of total population. That's the number we need to focus on. Because of the 12 and under that people keep ignoring when they talk about unvaxxed people.

You are absolutely correct and that is the language of the VT website.

[::: :::]

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/data/mortality

i think he was referring to this (from your link)


or per K2's link here
https://www.tetongravity.com/forums/...37#post6389537

[skaredshtles]

85% of ELIGIBLE. I get a little worked up that they don't say % of total population. That's the number we need to focus on. Because of the 12 and under that people keep ignoring when they talk about unvaxxed people.

Ahh... yeah - that accounts for the discrepancy between the two sites.

[Skidog]

Your question is clumsily worded as the overall percentage of non-whites is not important. But to get to the point, the % of vaccinated BIPOC Vermonters is 74.3%. Slightly lower than the VT overall, but still way ahead of many, many states.

crass? direct? probably, but I think the point still remains that in most places, mostly close to metro areas, there is a disproportionate amount on "non whites" in the class of those that have difficulties, one way or another, in getting the vax. Plenty of resources that show this. Its not just something I came up with in a dream.
Its a real issue, many here seem to blow it off as "troll", and ignore it, because it a shitty thing thats immensely difficult to fix. Easier just to ignore it apparently.

[Peruvian]

Wow - Vermont seems to buck the trend of low vax rates for both rural and BIPOC populations. Maybe there is something they are doing that could help other states engage these groups to increase the overall safety of the entire community.

FIFY

[MagnificentUnicorn]

Another question to ask is, when the government exercises it's emergency police power to keep us safe (like require widespread vaccine passports) is that exercise of power necessary and is it the least restrictive alternative? If not, the government loses legitimacy (crying wolf).

Real world example-masks outside at ski areas last winter. Compliance was abysmal and ultimately, requiring masks in outdoor settings prior to Delta has been deemed ineffective (again, crying wolf).

Answer these questions:

What about legitimate medical exemptions? Do they get a card? How do they get a card?

As vaccine efficacy from two doses wains, do we update the vaccine passport rules to include booster shots? What's the point of saying only those with a card can enter when having that card no longer proves you are any less likely to transmit COVID?

It's not easy for the government to enforce laws when a huge swath of the country disagrees with the law. For instance, if you don't want people to smoke weed educate them on the downside of weed rather than prohibit it.

Finally, the government can exercise emergency police powers to keep us safe. So, if the government determines vaccine passports are necessary to keep people entering a particular location safe, then that is allowed. The government CAN NOT use emergency police powers to punish people for not doing what the government wants them to do. In other words, the government cannot use emergency police powers for punitive reasons. Half the people posting here don't seem to understand the difference.

Tell me about “legitimate medical exemptions”. What are they?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[Skidog]

Tell me about “legitimate medical exemptions”. What are they?


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

immunocompromised?

[wooley12]

Haha you poor sick soul

[Mofro261]

immunocompromised?

Psst. Those are the ones eligible for a 3rd dose currently....

[Adolf Allerbush]

immunocompromised?

I take your concern over lower % of vaccination among minorities as being genuine, so I think looking to VT for ways to increase vaccination rates elsewhere would be a good place to start as well as other examples where there has been success. I do not understand why you keep bringing this up with regards to proving vaccination status at private businesses to protect the vulnerable (i.e., under 12 years old, immunocompromised, etc.).

I am truly interested in your perspective and Altasnob's, since you two appear to be of one mind on this topic, so I'll ask again, what about the freedom of people who cannot get vaccinated or for whom the vaccinations are not as effective? Shouldn't they have the freedom to safely enter private businesses if those businesses require proof of vaccination status? If not, why are you ok with taking away their freedom in this manner? It hits close to home because I have kids that are under 12 and I have a sibling that is a organ transplant recipient. the latter is a pharmacist and the breadwinner of her family. She can't quit her job to avoid interacting with the public and unfortunately there's a good chunk of the population that refuses to get vaccinated, and not for legitimate reasons. Additionally this group of people tend to have a difficult time with mask wearing. My sister got the vaccine, Pfizer, but because she's on anti-rejection medication for her organ transplant the effectiveness of the vaccines is thought to be quite low. Should she, and others like her, risk their lives because people don't want to have private businesses tell them to prove vaccination status before entering?

Psst. Those are the ones eligible for a 3rd dose currently....

Even so, see example above. Thoughts?

[paulster2626]

A lot of poor people can't afford to be sick for a day due to the vaccine side effects. Twice. I bet this is where a lot of hesitancy is coming from - as well as people who can afford a couple sick days but they're just being silly babies.