To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

**Kinnikinnick** · 08-26-2021, 01:12 PM

Textarded

https://www.npr.org/sections/back-to...tent=algorithm

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**paulster2626** · 08-26-2021, 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

I tend to discount or at least be very skeptical of anyone who claims they are an expert over and over.

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Yeah but what if they say they're an expert while flailing their arms around wildly for 5 minutes?

I also love the cheering peanut gallery that pipes up once in a while when she makes a "gotcha!" sort of statement. Oh and check out the petty podcast.

**Skidog** · 08-26-2021, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by MagnificentUnicorn

Private businesses can require whatever they want for entry right? I think the last 18 months have shown that you don’t need to go into a store to buy goods, you don’t even need to leave your home. Nobody is being forced to get vaccinated. It might be a requirement for employment or to enter a business or public building but no one is being forced to get vaccinated. If people want to participate in “normal” society they can get vaccinated or opt out.

And apparently you’re wrong because more private businesses are now requiring vaccine for entry. It’s freedom, individuals(private businesses) have a choice. It’s not discrimination because it’s for the greater good and the protection of society. There is precedent in the SCOTUS over a hundred years ago. Amazing how our democracy works huh?

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my point is...why should covid vax be different than measles, chicken pox, etc...you dont have to prove any of those to go into a restaurant and never did...??

Again fully vaxed family aside from the under 12 and i hope thats soon too....just dont like the idea of a "vaccine card".

in the united states of america you are not required to show ID to law enforcement unless you under suspicion of a crime. but yeah flashing a card to get into walmart makes total sense...

**Thaleia** · 08-26-2021, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by paulster2626

I know it's not very scientific at all, but all last year when the kids were in school wearing masks, they never - not once - got a cold or anything. I'm sure there's no mask that can stop ALL viruses, but to say they are completely useless and "child abuse" is a bit much. But, of course, I'm no expert!

Been kinda nice not having anyone in the family getting the cold or flu over the last year and a half. Not to mention a noticeable reduction in seasonal allergies.

**mcski** · 08-26-2021, 01:19 PM

Gee, maybe because the prevalence of those two viruses is low to non existent in the community and covid is rampaging. Ffs that’s why it’s different.

**Buster Highmen** · 08-26-2021, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Skidog

my point is...why should covid vax be different than measles, chicken pox, etc...you dont have to prove any of those to go into a restaurant and never did...??

Maybe it has to do with the pandemic?

Again fully vaxed family aside from the under 12 and i hope thats soon too....just dont like the idea of a "vaccine card".

OK. I don't like masks or vaccines.
But I got vaxxed and I wear a mask.

in the united states of america you are not required to show ID to law enforcement unless you under suspicion of a crime. but yeah flashing a card to get into walmart makes total sense...

I don't understand the equivalence.

Point being: no one likes this shit but if one thinks about our communities, they are good ideas.

**Adolf Allerbush** · 08-26-2021, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by Skidog

my point is...why should covid vax be different than measles, chicken pox, etc...you dont have to prove any of those to go into a restaurant and never did...??

Again fully vaxed family aside from the under 12 and i hope thats soon too....just dont like the idea of a "vaccine card".

in the united states of america you are not required to show ID to law enforcement unless you under suspicion of a crime. but yeah flashing a card to get into walmart makes total sense...

I want to be able to go into a restaurant, supermarket, store, business, sporting event, etc. without worrying that I'm surrounded by some numbskulls who have decided they aren't willing to do the bare minimum to ensure others don't get sick from them. Since this is a different situation, this pandemic, than chicken pox lets say, I think it's ok to look at other ways to address maintaining the freedom to not get sick from some moron that won't get vaccinated and wear a mask.

I think it was travel to china, or maybe it was to south America, one or the other, but we had to prove we had certain vaccinations to get our visas. I don't remember anyone having an issue with it.

**bennymac** · 08-26-2021, 01:29 PM

Originally Posted by Skidog

my point is...why should covid vax be different than measles, chicken pox, etc...you dont have to prove any of those to go into a restaurant and never did...??
.

Are you serious?

Maybe think about it for a minute. Maybe realize you've never been in a global measles pandemic that is overwhelming hospitals.

KQ · 08-26-2021, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

I think it was travel to china, or maybe it was to south America, one or the other, but we had to prove we had certain vaccinations to get our visas. I don't remember anyone having an issue with it.

Had to get a Yellow Fever vax for Peru/Ecuador. Also Hep A/B.

**Adolf Allerbush** · 08-26-2021, 01:31 PM

Originally Posted by KQ

Had to get a Yellow Fever vax for Peru/Ecuador. Also Hep A/B.

Yes, same!

**MultiVerse** · 08-26-2021, 01:35 PM

A new observational study from Israel suggests natural infection confers longer lasting protection than the Pfizer 2 dose / 3 week schedule for those either infected or vaccinated in Jan-Feb 2021. While similar not yet published data from the UK suggests longer intervals between doses offers more sustained protection.

The study also shows a single dose on top of a previous infection provides a lot of protection. Because protection still wanes for in the wild infection too, a single vaccine dose cuts the risk in half compared to those infected and unvaccinated.

Caveats: The study only applies to Delta and the Pfizer vaccine; does not estimate asymptomatic infections; does not account for health behavior; does not account for health status or susceptibility to covid-19 between groups; and there's no way to know if previously infected persons re-test for reinfection or assume instead they're infected with something else. Also, the unvaccinated in Israel tend to be concentrated in conservative communities which could skew the data since the current wave didn't hit those places until after the study period:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...415v1.full.pdf

**skaredshtles** · 08-26-2021, 01:38 PM

Originally Posted by Adolf Allerbush

I'm no expert either but if masks do "nothing" why do doctors performing surgeries wear them even in non-pandemic times?

bEcAuSe tHeY HaVeN'T DoNe tHeIr rEsEaRcH!!

**rideit** · 08-26-2021, 01:41 PM

So, what is the level of further protection if you had Covid, recovered, got vaccinated, got a breakthrough infection, and got a second (or third) shot?

**Buster Highmen** · 08-26-2021, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

A new observational study from Israel suggests natural infection confers longer lasting protection than the Pfizer 2 dose / 3 week schedule for those either infected or vaccinated in Jan-Feb 2021.
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1...415v1.full.pdf

Now that's news to me.
But given the risk tradeoff, I'm still opting for the vaccine for now.

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 08-26-2021, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Skidog

my point is...why should covid vax be different than measles, chicken pox, etc...you dont have to prove any of those to go into a restaurant and never did...??

Again fully vaxed family aside from the under 12 and i hope thats soon too....just dont like the idea of a "vaccine card".

in the united states of america you are not required to show ID to law enforcement unless you under suspicion of a crime. but yeah flashing a card to get into walmart makes total sense...

Well, people lined up to get vaccinated against those diseases because they weren’t as ignorant and selfish. And again, it’s not your right to go into a private business if you don’t want to comply with their requirements. You can’t fly on commercial airlines without proof of identity and you must submit to a search(metal detector/x-ray of belongings and random scans/pat downs) even though these measures are likely just security theatre.

We have to be suspicious of everyone not being vaccinated. I want people to prove it. I think the dropping of mask mandates for people who were fully vaccinated was premature. As soon as those mandates were dropped everyone including the unvaccinated stopped wearing masks. I live in a health district where around 50% of the eligible population was vaccinated at that point. No one wore a mask after the mandates were dropped. People can’t do the right thing apparently and that’s why we need proof.

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**MultiVerse** · 08-26-2021, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Buster Highmen

Now that's news to me.
But given the risk tradeoff, I'm still opting for the vaccine for now.

For sure. No one in the tens of thousands of people tracked across cohorts, either previously infected or vaccinated, died during the study period. Whereas this is it what it looks like in American for uninfected people banking on natural infection instead of vaccination:

Attachment 383651

**frorider** · 08-26-2021, 01:48 PM

Yup. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

**CarlMega** · 08-26-2021, 01:53 PM

Ok. I jumped on Skidog too. Personally, I think his logic is crap here but for a guy who swings right he's been espousing conscientious POV on getting the vax. The 'mandate' as described is hypothetical so I'd hate to alienate someone who is generally aligned over some strawman instagram post by a nitwit.

**Skidog** · 08-26-2021, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by bennymac

Are you serious?

Maybe think about it for a minute. Maybe realize you've never been in a global measles pandemic that is overwhelming hospitals.

did they have vax cards in 1918? I know they did the mask thing but.....

**MagnificentUnicorn** · 08-26-2021, 01:55 PM

I don’t know why I would care what Tatum Monod thinks. Never heard of her.

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**ill-advised strategy** · 08-26-2021, 01:57 PM

SHES THE ONLY SUBJECT MATTER EXPERT

**Skidog** · 08-26-2021, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by bennymac

Are you serious?

Maybe think about it for a minute. Maybe realize you've never been in a global measles pandemic that is overwhelming hospitals.

nope I havent...and guess what??? There are still actually people in the world not vaccinated against measles, or chicken pox, or hpv, or.......

I for sure dont have an answer but some form of show me proof on a federal scale seems a bit intrusive. You're not required, in the usa, to have ANY form of ID...not required to have a social, DL, ID, etc....sure it can make things much harder, but its not a REQUIREMENT.

**Skidog** · 08-26-2021, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by Carl_Mega

Ok. I jumped on Skidog too. Personally, I think his logic is crap here but for a guy who swings right he's been espousing conscientious POV on getting the vax. The 'mandate' as described is hypothetical so I'd hate to alienate someone who is generally aligned over some strawman instagram post by a nitwit.

i really take little offense to anything anyone says to me or about me here...its a conversation. we do not all have to agree.

I think everyone should go get poked, but thats a fucking pipe dream...especially in todays political climate. The virus isnt political, to me, "vax id's" are...

**paulster2626** · 08-26-2021, 02:01 PM

Originally Posted by MultiVerse

For sure. No one in the tens of thousands of people tracked across cohorts, either previously infected or vaccinated, died during the study period. Whereas this is it what it looks like in American for uninfected people banking on natural infection instead of vaccination:

Same sort of data coming in daily here in Ontario as well. They're working, and you're a goof if you don't go and get it, twice.

Vaccine effectiveness data: (assumed 14 days to effectiveness) Source

Today, the per 100k case rates for un/partially/fully vaxxed people were 9.34 / 7.23 / 1.49 (Count: 395 / 82 / 141)

Translated into effectiveness rates, fully/partially vaxxed people are 84.0% / 22.6% less likely to get infected than unvaxxed people

Today, the per million current ICU rates for un/partially/fully vaxxed people were 21.04 / 7.93 / 1.06

Translated into effectiveness rates, fully/partially vaxxed people are 95.0% / 62.3% less likely to be in the ICU than unvaxxed people

It's a bit of a no-brainer at this point.

**Adolf Allerbush** · 08-26-2021, 02:06 PM

Originally Posted by Skidog

The virus isnt political, to me, "vax id's" are...

Are other forms of ID also political to you? For example, drivers licenses? If not, why not. Would you take issue with having to show ID to vote? if so, or if not, why or why not? ID to get through security at an airport just for domestic travel? I'm seriously trying to understand if it's all forms of ID that you take issue with politically.