To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[old goat]

Our niece is a teacher and her husband runs IT for a Socal district. All those wishing to publicly comment at board meeting must supply name and email address. Lots of heated comments about making the kids wear masks. During the time before public comment they look up all the people who wish to comment. After the comments they announce the number of commenters who have kids in the district--usually a very small fraction.

Excellent summary about breakthrough infections, the immunology involved, the findings of the recent high profile studies.
https://www.newyorker.com/science/me...ovid-infection

[schuss]

Our niece is a teacher and her husband runs IT for a Socal district. All those wishing to publicly comment at board meeting must supply name and email address. Lots of heated comments about making the kids wear masks. During the time before public comment they look up all the people who wish to comment. After the comments they announce the number of commenters who have kids in the district--usually a very small fraction.

Excellent summary about breakthrough infections, the immunology involved, the findings of the recent high profile studies.
https://www.newyorker.com/science/me...ovid-infection

None of the teachers I know report any issues from kids masking, even in elementary and Pre-K levels. My daughter has been masking since 3.5ish with no issues other than occasional pouts because her Frozen mask was dirty.

[toast2266]

my suggestion to promote the vaccine is two-fold :
- set the example ; Be vaccinated. and quietly acknowledge that we are vaccinated, and believe the vaccine will reduce the incidence, reduce the severity, and,,, reduce the spread of the virus ; and

- Be Patient. name-calling ,,, will eliminate a potential audience - If what we are trying to do is get more people to vaccinate, t-h-e-y have to have a reason that is important to [them] ! arguments that are not persuasive to them are wasted !

As to the first point, I think the willingly vaccinated have that one covered.

As to the second point, patience doesn't work when the virus keeps mutating, ultimately rendering the vaccines ineffective. We had the opportunity to largely eliminate the virus, at least in the developed world. The anti-vaxxers shat all over that opportunity.

[yeahman]

Not if you mandate it.

Those antivaxxers won’t commit financial suicide by not working.

Won’t happen.




Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Financial suicide? They can make as much or more $$ doing just about anything else these days, and everywhere is hiring. Losing their job is no incentive to get vaxed, at least for the NAs who provide the day to day care.

[californiagrown]

As to the first point, I think the willingly vaccinated have that one covered.

As to the second point, patience doesn't work when the virus keeps mutating, ultimately rendering the vaccines ineffective. We had the opportunity to largely eliminate the virus, at least in the developed world. The anti-vaxxers shat all over that opportunity.

Unless we shut our borders and imposed super duper strict testing and quarantining policies, new strains that developed in the developing world would have made it into the US... and then spread here. With something this contagious, wouldnt we need world wise vaccination on a large scale to mitigate spread/mutation while also going about life in a semi-normal way?

[toast2266]

Unless we shut our borders and imposed super duper strict testing and quarantining policies, new strains that developed in the developing world would have made it into the US... and then spread here. With something this contagious, wouldnt we need world wise vaccination on a large scale to mitigate spread/mutation while also going about life in a semi-normal way?

Ultimately, yeah, the whole world probably needs vaccinations. But it sure seems like the first step is getting our own act together.

[californiagrown]

Ultimately, yeah, the whole world probably needs vaccinations. But it sure seems like the first step is getting our own act together.

Agreed. Its of short term benefit to the developed world to get vaccinated and protected for the next little while while we focus on vaccinating the rest of teh world in an effort to really stamp the thing out. But unless we focus on the rest of the world at some point, this will be an ongoing worldwide problem it would seem.

[bodywhomper]

Submit letters to the editor of your local paper. Send comments to county BOS and school district BOD. We are the majority, but our voices are not always heard by the loud conspiracy shits that can attend meetings in-person.

[skiJ]

schuss and toast -

I don't disagree with your positions - though they would not work in the fiercely independent region I am from - -

I believe there is some misinformation up-thread about religious exemptions -
while some religions maintain a Policy of individual choice, I know several people across a couple of religions that will not be vaccinated, Because of the teachings and the practices of the church !

I am not sure what 'toddler generation' schuss refers to - the people I am encountering who are opposed to the vaccine are overSixty and over Seventy years in age ;
they are devoted followers of the former president --


Be-ing Patient does not mean not looking for opportunity to promote vaccination - AND as I tried to say, regarding people who are opposed to the vaccine perhaps I presented the second piece of my encouragement poorly -, people who are opposed to the vaccine have to have a reason that is important to them ! !!! And
where I am from, the perception of individual 'Freedom' is the only thing considered relative to any idea of [ the greater good ] -

up-thread, there is an anecdote about someone who will not allow a vaccinated grandparent to interact with a new grandchild ;
there is just no reasoning with some people...


I have come back with this post, in response to these comments, Because there is another recent post that raised the idea of a possibility that may be very real : anarchy -
where I am from, If you try to tell parents they MUST have there middle school and high school aged children vaccinated for covid, there will be at least a risk ( if not a threat ) of violence
( there were guns at the state capital repeatedly last year, And
there was a plot to kidnap the governor. ) --


Could we have prevented hundreds of thousand of deaths last year (?) And
could we have eliminated this virus (?)

though the idealized statistics say Maybe - in-fact, neither process happened. AND
neither happened a hundred years ago, when in a Much less mobile society, Influenza killed hundreds of thousands... ( and millions world-wide )

schuss, ,,, I went back and re-read your closing comments carefully, and I do not disagree with you -
where I am from, the schools were the site of spread of the virus more than once in the last year -

(but) in that region, you are not required to send your kids to school - (!) it is an Unwelcome option, but at least U.p. north, you don't have to send your kids to school !


as I am currently in a region where vaccination rates struggle to reach Fifty percent, and a widely held attitude is,
' I have had it (covid), and it was not that bad. ( I did not bother to get tested ) ' ,

I choose to try to keep the Peace.
I Am greatly concerned about the future of ( my country. )

. . . thanks for listening... tj

[CarlMega]

I know several people across a couple of religions that will not be vaccinated, Because of the teachings and the practices of the church !

Can you name the religions/churches?

[Mazderati]

The man loves his punctuation and font formats. Except for periods. Fuck those things.

[skiJ]

Can you name the religions/churches?

I can - but I believe it promotes divisiveness - And I am trying to advocate for an idea that we are All in this together, And

what I was trying to draw attention to IS that

while the Policy position of the religion may be that the Religion leaves the decision to the individual ,
the practice of the church is to (strongly encourage) members not to vaccinate

( they are 'protected' by their faith ) tj

[Mazderati]

Can you name the religions/churches?

It depends on whether you are talking about The Church or the church. The Church is full of limp dicks afraid of or against taking a position and lots of smaller churches have leaders who make their own interpretations and do their own thing without having to go through a chain of approval. It takes almost nothing to organize as a church.

https://apnews.com/article/health-re...7f2b7a20161e4e

[schuss]

schuss and toast -

I don't disagree with your positions - though they would not work in the fiercely independent region I am from - -

I believe there is some misinformation up-thread about religious exemptions -
while some religions maintain a Policy of individual choice, I know several people across a couple of religions that will not be vaccinated, Because of the teachings and the practices of the church !

I am not sure what 'toddler generation' schuss refers to - the people I am encountering who are opposed to the vaccine are overSixty and over Seventy years in age ;
they are devoted followers of the former president --


Be-ing Patient does not mean not looking for opportunity to promote vaccination - AND as I tried to say, regarding people who are opposed to the vaccine perhaps I presented the second piece of my encouragement poorly -, people who are opposed to the vaccine have to have a reason that is important to them ! !!! And
where I am from, the perception of individual 'Freedom' is the only thing considered relative to any idea of [ the greater good ] -

up-thread, there is an anecdote about someone who will not allow a vaccinated grandparent to interact with a new grandchild ;
there is just no reasoning with some people...


I have come back with this post, in response to these comments, Because there is another recent post that raised the idea of a possibility that may be very real : anarchy -
where I am from, If you try to tell parents they MUST have there middle school and high school aged children vaccinated for covid, there will be at least a risk ( if not a threat ) of violence
( there were guns at the state capital repeatedly last year, And
there was a plot to kidnap the governor. ) --


Could we have prevented hundreds of thousand of deaths last year (?) And
could we have eliminated this virus (?)

though the idealized statistics say Maybe - in-fact, neither process happened. AND
neither happened a hundred years ago, when in a Much less mobile society, Influenza killed hundreds of thousands... ( and millions world-wide )

schuss, ,,, I went back and re-read your closing comments carefully, and I do not disagree with you -
where I am from, the schools were the site of spread of the virus more than once in the last year -

(but) in that region, you are not required to send your kids to school - (!) it is an Unwelcome option, but at least U.p. north, you don't have to send your kids to school !


as I am currently in a region where vaccination rates struggle to reach Fifty percent, and a widely held attitude is,
' I have had it (covid), and it was not that bad. ( I did not bother to get tested ) ' ,

I choose to try to keep the Peace.
I Am greatly concerned about the future of ( my country. )

. . . thanks for listening... tj

Just because you're 60 or 70 doesn't mean you aren't a toddler. They're spoiled and entitled and I'm sick of people soft pedaling it. The same people who told me and mine to suck it up when we were younger can't take it now. They aren't independent at all, it's just shitty, ignorant groupthink. Here's a litmus test - if your support for something depends on the person who said it's political affiliation, you ain't independent.
None of this SHOULD be political, but people went and made it that way and their followers lapped it up.
If "keeping the peace" means we keep enabling ignorance and throwing away lives to protect their feelings, let em squirm for once.

We absolutely could have prevented them, and any unvaxxed death that isn't an immunocompromised person currently is a preventable one. They could have gotten vaccinated and avoided getting sick or a severity of sickness, and now they're dead. My heart goes out to their family and friends who now have a missing seat at their tables.
I don't have a choice with school as no district can afford mass remote learning, nor can we with full time jobs.
Also - if you never got tested, it very well could have been a cold, so stop spitting bullshit.

[CarlMega]

I can - but I believe it promotes divisiveness - And I am trying to advocate for an idea that we are All in this together, And

what I was trying to draw attention to IS that

while the Policy position of the religion may be that the Religion leaves the decision to the individual ,
the practice of the church is to (strongly encourage) members not to vaccinate

( they are 'protected' by their faith ) tj

Right. I'll stop just short of calling it BS... people assign tenets/policy to religion that simply are not there... all the time - it's just their personal opinion. that day.

Welp too bad for them I guess. Further, that other tidbit about worrying about "anarchy" because your neighbors are prone to violence and may shoot up a school or somethign doesn't really make me keen on trying to reason with them or cater to their bizarro persecution complexes.

[jono]

SkiJ is right for the same reason no one wants to admit he's right. History will remember these people as enemy sympathizers, but using their reasoning won't get the job done.

Covidiot: we can't solve the whole problem, we should just do Sweden.

Outraged American: they're really stuck to their opinions, we'll never convince them all, fuck em.

Covidiot: quit trying to control me! I do what I want! Hail Satan!

Outraged American: they won't do what I want! Fuck em!

Covidiot: don't talk to me about consequences. I do what I want.

Outraged American: just because it doesn't work is no reason to stop yelling at them. I do what I want.

[CarlMega]

Outraged American: just because it doesn't work is no reason to stop yelling at them. I do what I want.

I'll submit this: no one is yelling at these morans. If there's a public meltdown happening, you better believe it's the 'muh rights' crowd getting loud. Or threatening. At worst, most of us are venting to like minded people, mostly civilly...bitching online...pondering if there's a policy or enticement that might move the needle.

Good faith dialog has been long dead. Facts? Nah. Try to build empathy for your fellow citizen? Not on my watch. Give/take on restrictions and policy? Pssssft, what is this? Another China hoax?!?

America is basically stuck catering to the loudest, poorly informed, child-like behavior, zero compromise, zealots under threat of violence. It's sad and pathetic.

[Mazderati]

JFC. Jono with the both sides argument.

[jono]

I'll submit this: no one is yelling at these morans. If there's a public meltdown happening, you better believe it's the 'muh rights' crowd getting loud. Or threatening. At worst, most of us are venting to like minded people, mostly civilly...bitching online...pondering if there's a policy or enticement that might move the needle.

Good faith dialog has been long dead. Facts? Nah. Try to build empathy for your fellow citizen? Not on my watch. Give/take on restrictions and policy? Pssssft, what is this? Another China hoax?!?

American is basically stuck catering to the loudest, poorly informed, child-like behavior, zero compromise, zealots under threat of violence. It's sad and pathetic.

You're right, I forgot one: we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas.

[dunfree]

It depends on whether you are talking about The Church or the church. The Church is full of limp dicks afraid of or against taking a position and lots of smaller churches have leaders who make their own interpretations and do their own thing without having to go through a chain of approval. It takes almost nothing to organize as a church.

https://apnews.com/article/health-re...7f2b7a20161e4e

As that article suggests it’s more the broader “faith community” than actual pastors or religion against the vaccine.

[jono]

JFC. Jono with the both sides argument.

"The" both sides argument? If you only know one of those it's wrong. Mine is very simple: don't be them. Get off your ass, pick the one person you think might be on the fence and go find out.

[CarlMega]

You're right, I forgot one: we've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas.

I literally listed 3 attempts:

education/facts

empathy

nego on restrictions and policy

So...come again?

[jono]

I literally listed 3 attempts:

education/facts

empathy

nego on restrictions and policy

So...come again?

Sorry, that was more of a reference to the fact that no one is freaking on our side--because no one is trying to communicate with these people. One on one.

[Mazderati]

"The" both sides argument? If you only know one of those it's wrong. Mine is very simple: don't be them. Get off your ass, pick the one person you think might be on the fence and go find out.

How many opinions have you changed in a significant way?

[jono]

How many opinions have you changed in a significant way?

I don't think I have a good count on that but 4 of the people I've worked on have gotten vaccinated, plus one of their kids. (Edit: no, 5)

I'm kinda heartbroken about some of the others, to be honest. Really cool people whose brains I love to connect with at every opportunity until now. But I'm not done with them. One thing I know for sure: the few who "switch sides" have friends on both. That's a huge part of it. The piece on This American Life showed that people can be reached all at once, when their whole peer group changes they can go with them.

Tell me some of your success stories, I need more ideas.