Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[KQ]

Hanging in there is about all I'm doing at the moment. So freaking exhausted.

Thanks for the info on Wal-Mart Bob. I've been back and forth with myself re: does it really matter?

I could hunker down for another 9 days but I really need to get out and pick up feed. What it keeps coming down to is "what if?" What if I am positive and I pass it on and as a result someone dies? I can't deal with that.

[bennymac]

knowledge is power

and it's also more comforting to know (either result) instead of this limbo you are stuck in (thanks in part to the frustrating denial of testing you already went through)

don't discount how much stress the uncertainty could be causing - stress that would be contributing directly to your exhaustion

people are often less upset about bad news than they are about uncertainty

I say it's totally worth it to know

[MontuckyFried]

Oh, NOW the media and you guys are willing to talk about the possibility of a lab leak:

Why scientists are suddenly more interested in the lab-leak theory of Covid's origin
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/polit...ory/index.html

And then you have Vox who tried to "debunk" the notion as a "dangerous conspiracy theory" early on:
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/23/212264...onavirus-china
I'm getting a chuckle out of the brand new appended note: "Editor’s note, May 24, 2021: Since this piece was originally published in April 2020, scientific consensus has shifted. Now some experts say the “lab leak” theory warrants an investigation, along with the natural origin theory, and information in this article may be out of date."
HA! Ya don't say. Oh, but when I even brought up the POSSIBILITY of it over a year ago, I was promptly shut down here, as just the very idea of it was considered "conspiracy theory", "tin foil hat," "misinformation," etc.

Dr. Fauci's even been talking about it lately. I guess now that Orange Man Bad is gone, the media is free to discuss the topic?

[abraham]

Goddamn do you go through life constantly surprised or offended by the presence of new information. There's been a monthslong shift towards the possibility of a lab leak as the source of this.
How often do you find yourself driving and thinking 'Oh NOW my car has a quarter tank of gas' as though it's some big gotcha moment since you had a full tank earlier.

[billyk]

Saw some at-home covid antigen tests for sale at Walgreens today. Two tests in a box for $24 or so. Maybe old news, but it’s the first time I’ve seen them there. They were also giving J&J vaccine shots on a walk-in basis.

I’d say at least half of the stores and restaurants I’ve been to this week have dropped the mask requirement. I even had a haircut with no mask. Felt good.

I had my second Moderna shot about 6 weeks ago, so I was feeling pretty invincible. I still mostly wear the mask around people in stores, but seems mostly like theater at this point.

[paulster2626]

Oh, NOW the media and you guys are willing to talk about the possibility of a lab leak:

Why scientists are suddenly more interested in the lab-leak theory of Covid's origin
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/polit...ory/index.html

And then you have Vox who tried to "debunk" the notion as a "dangerous conspiracy theory" early on:
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/23/212264...onavirus-china
I'm getting a chuckle out of the brand new appended note: "Editor’s note, May 24, 2021: Since this piece was originally published in April 2020, scientific consensus has shifted. Now some experts say the “lab leak” theory warrants an investigation, along with the natural origin theory, and information in this article may be out of date."
HA! Ya don't say. Oh, but when I even brought up the POSSIBILITY of it over a year ago, I was promptly shut down here, as just the very idea of it was considered "conspiracy theory", "tin foil hat," "misinformation," etc.

Dr. Fauci's even been talking about it lately. I guess now that Orange Man Bad is gone, the media is free to discuss the topic?

Here's something that might be a bit of a reality check for you: your country is 1 out of about 210 in the world. The rest of us really don't care all that much about your dipshit reality TV show star president to alter our own news headlines and scientific consensus. It just doesn't make sense - you're not that important, sorry. Your politics just don't matter that much. And maybe, just maybe, if the guy wasn't so full of shit EVERY GODDAMN HOUR OF EVERY GODDAMN DAY more people might take him seriously on some matters.

[old_newguy]

Oh, NOW the media and you guys are willing to talk about the possibility of a lab leak:

Why scientists are suddenly more interested in the lab-leak theory of Covid's origin
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/polit...ory/index.html

And then you have Vox who tried to "debunk" the notion as a "dangerous conspiracy theory" early on:
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/23/212264...onavirus-china
I'm getting a chuckle out of the brand new appended note: "Editor’s note, May 24, 2021: Since this piece was originally published in April 2020, scientific consensus has shifted. Now some experts say the “lab leak” theory warrants an investigation, along with the natural origin theory, and information in this article may be out of date."
HA! Ya don't say. Oh, but when I even brought up the POSSIBILITY of it over a year ago, I was promptly shut down here, as just the very idea of it was considered "conspiracy theory", "tin foil hat," "misinformation," etc.

Dr. Fauci's even been talking about it lately. I guess now that Orange Man Bad is gone, the media is free to discuss the topic?

Yes, the default assumption is that people who lie all the time are lying until there is actual evidence produced.

[MontuckyFried]

Yes, the default assumption is that people who lie all the time are lying until there is actual evidence produced.

Not even talking about Trump here. When there were multiple Chinese scientist whistleblowers trying to get the word out early on, the media and many here ignored them, tried to silence them, tried to debunk them. SOME of us actually listened to them and thought it warranted looking into. But China and their spokes-organization (WHO) were like "Wut? Nope! Nothing to see here!" as scientists there got disappeared, imprisoned, died of COVID, whatever. And you guys here guzzled up the Chinese official position on the subject without question.

[Kinnikinnick]

Not even talking about Trump here. When there were multiple Chinese scientist whistleblowers trying to get the word out early on, the media and many here ignored them, tried to silence them, tried to debunk them. SOME of us actually listened to them and thought it warranted looking into. But China and their spokes-organization (WHO) were like "Wut? Nope! Nothing to see here!" as scientists there got disappeared, imprisoned, died of COVID, whatever. And you guys here guzzled up the Chinese official position on the subject without question.

Bullshit.

“You guys guzzled up the Chinese official position”

No one did that here, that I recall, certainly not me. Still only speculation that it came from a lab, but I certainly dont put it past Chinese incompetence or worse.

Still not a lot of scientific evidence of a release, but should be investigated.

Why is everything about you being butthurt that no one put any merit into what the lying King Trumptard said??


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

[old goat]

There has been no shift in the science regarding the origin of the pandemic. There has been a shift in the media group think on the subject and on pronouncements by public officials and organizations. The shift in reporting seems to have been driven by the Nicholas Wade piece, which has been discussed ad nauseum in this forum. We are no closer to knowing the origin of the pandemic than we were when it started. Certainly the lab theory can't be discounted, nor a natural spread of the virus from animal to man, nor an origin somewhere else other than China. Let the scientists do their work and let the rest of us shut up.

Now I'll shut up on the subject, at least until the next time I'm outraged.

[bennymac]

Oh, NOW the media and you guys are willing to talk about the possibility of a lab leak:

Why scientists are suddenly more interested in the lab-leak theory of Covid's origin
https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/25/polit...ory/index.html

And then you have Vox who tried to "debunk" the notion as a "dangerous conspiracy theory" early on:
https://www.vox.com/2020/4/23/212264...onavirus-china
I'm getting a chuckle out of the brand new appended note: "Editor’s note, May 24, 2021: Since this piece was originally published in April 2020, scientific consensus has shifted. Now some experts say the “lab leak” theory warrants an investigation, along with the natural origin theory, and information in this article may be out of date."
HA! Ya don't say. Oh, but when I even brought up the POSSIBILITY of it over a year ago, I was promptly shut down here, as just the very idea of it was considered "conspiracy theory", "tin foil hat," "misinformation," etc.

Dr. Fauci's even been talking about it lately. I guess now that Orange Man Bad is gone, the media is free to discuss the topic?

Is this all just performance art? Because bravo if so. You’re killing it. Be careful with that method acting though - you might be at risk.

[AEV]

I actually do agree with Montucky fried here. A broken clock is right on twice a day.

This was a pretty pathetic evolution on the lab leak theory from the left (not the science, that hasn’t really changed, more politics/media, as old goat said). A lot of people were labeled conspiracy theorists early on, Trumptards, whatever.

science wouldn’t even look at this for a year, “genetic engineers” were saying it was impossible. Now they are changing “opinions”

i don’t even know what to call this ideology, like dogmatic anti-science? Or something else. As a scientist myself, I see more and more of this happening as I get older, and its pretty scary

people ask questions, and instead of investigating all avenues, if it goes against an agenda or something, it’s just written off as a conspiracy theory and tabled until public opinion changes. Missing the “first 48”, if you will

I’m not a Trumptard, I’m not GOP. Don’t use this to label me, I’m a liberal (not a leftist)

I’m going to comb back through this thread, see which ones of you labeled this theory as conspiracy without evidence.

[CarlMega]

Huh, I seem to remember Trump and Pompeo getting up on the pulpit, yelling there was significant evidence that China had created the virus and then....nothing. No evidence. Nothing but the claim.

That sort of self-serving, red-meat to the base, boy who cried wolf, non-evidence based governing has consequences and that is "oh look another lie, wake me when you bring something to the table" blasé reactions. So please forgive us if the usual comprehensive and conscientious people are exhausted with battle fatigue on a tsunami of lies that lead to a fucking coup.

Personally, I'm more than willing to passively follow this story and let the evidence build as it isn't material to dealing with the pandemic public health crisis. "Let's learn more" shouldn't be a stance that is condemned in this media sea of false outrage and poorly drawn conclusions.

[Core Shot]

I actually do agree with Montucky fried here. A broken clock is right on twice a day.

This was a pretty pathetic evolution on the lab leak theory from the left (not the science, that hasn’t really changed, more politics/media, as old goat said). A lot of people were labeled conspiracy theorists early on, Trumptards, whatever.

science wouldn’t even look at this for a year, “genetic engineers” were saying it was impossible. Now they are changing “opinions”

i don’t even know what to call this ideology, like dogmatic anti-science? Or something else. As a scientist myself, I see more and more of this happening as I get older, and its pretty scary

people ask questions, and instead of investigating all avenues, if it goes against an agenda or something, it’s just written off as a conspiracy theory and tabled until public opinion changes..

Yup
New normal

[AEV]

Huh, I seem to remember Trump and Pompeo getting up on the pulpit, yelling there was significant evidence that China had created the virus and then....nothing. No evidence. Nothing but the claim.

That sort of self-serving, red-meat to the base, boy who cried wolf, non-evidence based governing has consequences and that is "oh look another lie, wake me when you bring something to the table" blasé reactions. So please forgive us if the usual comprehensive and conscientious people are exhausted with battle fatigue on a tsunami of lies that lead to a fucking coup.

Personally, I'm more than willing to passively follow this story and let the evidence build as it isn't material to dealing with the pandemic public health crisis. "Let's learn more" shouldn't be a stance that is condemned in this media sea of false outrage and poorly drawn conclusions.

Again, almost anti-science.. Just because the orangutard said it, half the country just tables it.

What I’m saying is the “let’s learn more” phase should have come much earlier, and with less pushback.

this isn’t just about covid origins. I am seeing this all across the board lately.

[abraham]

Just to toss some chaos into this thread, let's say this came from a lab.

What would that have changed last spring/summer? Would we have less of an antivaccine group because it's from a lab? Would it still be just a flu? Were we in a good position to do anything about China or would it be more important to deal with covid first?

And if in the coming months we find real evidence this came from a lab in China, what is a reasonable reaction?

[Core Shot]

Nuke wuhan?
From orbit

[AEV]

Just to toss some chaos into this thread, let's say this came from a lab.

What would that have changed last spring/summer? Would we have less of an antivaccine group because it's from a lab? Would it still be just a flu? Were we in a good position to do anything about China or would it be more important to deal with covid first?

And if in the coming months we find real evidence this came from a lab in China, what is a reasonable reaction?

I’m not going to make conjecture. All I’m going to say is it would have been better to know earlier, than to still not to know now. It’s always good to know, I don’t think that needs to be argued. We spent tons of time dealing with other non-covid things the past year, we easily could have put more effort into this.

[abraham]

That's how you get white blue cheese https://www.saveur.com/food/american...he-atomic-age/

[AEV]

Maybe another one chalked up to be simply American laziness? I called it anti science, but its probably more laziness than anything

[CarlMega]

Again, almost anti-science.. Just because the orangutard said it, half the country just tables it.

What I’m saying is the “let’s learn more” phase should have come much earlier, and with less pushback.

I hear what you are saying. How much deference should we give to Trump's shitty baseless claims? There's a fucking mountain of lies to unpack.

"Almost" ain't shit. Maybe it's your socical circles. Again, "said it" does not amount to evidence and was treated as such. The claim could eventually be true and also serve as baseless deflection - a broken clock moment doesn't win prizes.

There always was coverage on the lab theory - I followed a shit ton of it, right media, science publications. Hardly a "oh wow, never heard of this before...." breaking insight.

Premature claims deserve pushback. Circumstantial reasoning warrants framing. In the midst a public health crisis, the blame/origin research doesn't need to be on my or alt-right timelines.

[old_newguy]

Not even talking about Trump here. When there were multiple Chinese scientist whistleblowers trying to get the word out early on, the media and many here ignored them, tried to silence them, tried to debunk them. SOME of us actually listened to them and thought it warranted looking into. But China and their spokes-organization (WHO) were like "Wut? Nope! Nothing to see here!" as scientists there got disappeared, imprisoned, died of COVID, whatever. And you guys here guzzled up the Chinese official position on the subject without question.

What the fuck are you talking about? YOU brought him up.

[AEV]

That's how you get white blue cheese https://www.saveur.com/food/american...he-atomic-age/

I PMd you about an Alpental trip, but your box is full!

[jono]

Just to toss some chaos into this thread, let's say this came from a lab.

What would that have changed last spring/summer? Would we have less of an antivaccine group because it's from a lab? Would it still be just a flu? Were we in a good position to do anything about China or would it be more important to deal with covid first?

And if in the coming months we find real evidence this came from a lab in China, what is a reasonable reaction?

I think the problem is just credibility: if we were attacked we would logically expect to defend ourselves and our government to lead in that. Meaning, you can't claim it's an attack and at the same time say it's a hoax so we shouldn't take steps to reduce the effectiveness of the attack. It went off the rails with messaging that couldn't be taken seriously.

Which is a shame, because as AEV alludes, we should have taken a few other things more seriously than we did. Far UVC, for example, probably got less serious attention as soon as Trump said he wanted to "shine a powerful light" into people's lungs. Now we've got a lot of ozone generators poisoning school kids a little bit instead of putting UV lights in the ducts.

[old_newguy]

I actually do agree with Montucky fried here. A broken clock is right on twice a day.

This was a pretty pathetic evolution on the lab leak theory from the left (not the science, that hasn’t really changed, more politics/media, as old goat said). A lot of people were labeled conspiracy theorists early on, Trumptards, whatever.

science wouldn’t even look at this for a year, “genetic engineers” were saying it was impossible. Now they are changing “opinions”

i don’t even know what to call this ideology, like dogmatic anti-science? Or something else. As a scientist myself, I see more and more of this happening as I get older, and its pretty scary

people ask questions, and instead of investigating all avenues, if it goes against an agenda or something, it’s just written off as a conspiracy theory and tabled until public opinion changes. Missing the “first 48”, if you will

I’m not a Trumptard, I’m not GOP. Don’t use this to label me, I’m a liberal (not a leftist)

I’m going to comb back through this thread, see which ones of you labeled this theory as conspiracy without evidence.

Look. If someone, their mouthpieces and sycophants lied to you on a daily basis with the intent of gaslighting half the population for 3.5 years you don’t just take their word on it with no evidence one day.

The scientists are looking into it and to date they have not concluded anything AFAIK. I’ll go with the science when it comes to a conclusion.

The whole “people of a certain stripe didn’t believe this stuff” is just another level of gaslighting bullshit.