To Vaccinate or Not---The Rat Flu Odyssey Continues

[MontuckyFried]

To make a simpler compairson for MF: it's two different wrappings for presents. The J&J is a gift wrapped in a box with wrapping paper and the Pfizer/Moderna is just a gift bag with some tissue paper. Both contain the same present as far as your body is concerned, but the delivery method and unwrapping is different.

The efficacy differences are not worth comparing one to the next. The tests were performed on different people, in different countries which had different amounts of different variants floating around. The J&J trials faced the most kinds of variants while Pfizer/Moderna didn't. You can't compare their efficacy percentages because they didn't take the same test. It's like saying Pfizer got 95% on their math test and J&J got 66% on the Princeton entrance exam. They're not comparable scores.

Interesting. Thanks. So it sounds like the J&J's not nearly as worthless as the media has made it out to be.

It's like you're explaining this to a 5yo.

Haha. Since you're the undisputed king of gifs, you might appreciate this one:

[Danno]

Haha. Since you're the undisputed king of gifs,

I thought that was Bobby Stainless. You mad, bro?

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
Haha. Since you're the undisputed king of gifs, you might appreciate this one:

Srsly - I appreciate the 5yo explanation... most of this stuff is above my paygrade, and I appreciate any "COVID for Dummies" simplification.

[Core Shot]

My arm has hurt in a similar way with every vaccination I have received as an adult, particularly my tetanus booster.

This wasn’t any worse.

Moving it often helped a lot. FURIOUS MASTERBATION, in and out, up and down, etc

FIFY

[old_newguy]

FIFY

I try not to say the quiet part out loud.

[summit]

Interesting. Thanks. So it sounds like the J&J's not nearly as worthless as the media has made it out to be.

Exactly. I think it is a great vaccine in the fight against COVID.

At first I didn't think so, but once I read the data, I realized it was a great tool. The nuances in the study and timing in the studies are major points I hit when I'm giving presentations to educate healthcare providers so they can educate their patients.

[The AD]

My arm has hurt in a similar way with every vaccination I have received as an adult, particularly my tetanus booster.

This wasn’t any worse.

Moving it often helped a lot. Swimming motion, in and out, up and down, etc

I always get that "punched in the arm" feeling after vaccinations, but my second Covid vax was a whole different level. It felt like my arm was broken. There's no way I could lift my arm over my head.

I'm closing in on 48 hours post vax now and it's certainly getting better. It still hurts when I lift my arm, but it's not excruciating.

[bodywhomper]

J&J is more effective at preventing severe/critical illness >4 weeks after inoculation vs 2. If you get into the data, J&J is quite a bit more effective 6-8 weeks after inoculation where it is competitive with mRNA vaccine efficacy... (of course mRNA efficacy data is was measured 5-6 weeks after the first dose).

But for whatever reason (simplicity? realism?) they've chose "2 weeks after you last dose" as the metric for "fully vaccinated."

This is pretty rad and interesting. Can you share the data, and I apologize if it's upthread (I didn't notice it and struggle to keep up during busy times).

[yeahman]

I always get that "punched in the arm" feeling after vaccinations, but my second Covid vax was a whole different level. It felt like my arm was broken. There's no way I could lift my arm over my head.

I'm closing in on 48 hours post vax now and it's certainly getting better. It still hurts when I lift my arm, but it's not excruciating.

I was the opposite--first dose caused super sore arm for almost a week, second dose I had almost no arm soreness. Wife was the same. It was weird because I was expecting my arm to be really sore again but it didn't happen. I wonder if it has anything to do with where they stick the needle?

Anyway, reactions to these vaccines are all over the map.

[Jong Lafitte]

Just got the second shot now I’m even more paranoid they messed up the first one. I trust they didn’t but gee it was like they poked me with a sewing pin for like a 1/16th of a second; this time second shot I could feel the needle and it seemed like the “right” amount of time. Oh well. 14 Days.


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[Todd Zander]

I suppose theyre thinning out the silicone coating on the cannula(sharp pointy part) due to supply chain issues, or foregoing it altogether.

Needle factory near me has been 6 days a week since before it blew up last spring, bittersweet for the local economy.

[The AD]

The bandage companies must be raking in the cash, too.

[evdog]

I was the opposite--first dose caused super sore arm for almost a week, second dose I had almost no arm soreness. Wife was the same. It was weird because I was expecting my arm to be really sore again but it didn't happen. I wonder if it has anything to do with where they stick the needle?

I was wondering the same thing. First jab the needle hurt going in and arm felt like I'd been kicked hard for about 3 days. Shot 2 no pain for the needle and minimal soreness after. I figured the first shot went into muscle or something and the second one didn't.

[bennymac]

Nurses learn to give intramuscular shots from older nurses (who learned it from older nurses etc) - the problem with that is that can lead to bad habits being passed along - there is a real problem with not using long enough needles especially given how fat a lot of people are (thereby not injecting into the muscle when that is the target) and with not landmarking the right target area to stick the needle in (which can sometimes lead to injecting too close/into a nerve)

There seems to be a real fear of "hitting the bone" which 1) isn't that big a deal if they aren't jabbing it in there with speed and force 2) if the bone is hit the person doesn't generally feel pain from that happening (though they might feel it hit) and the needle can then be pulled back into the muscle easily

This might seem minor - but these vaccines are designed to work through injection into the muscle and putting it into fat isn't helping.

To be clear I think it would be very hard to determine from your own vax side effects where the shot was delivered since it seems so variable (unless you got it in a nerve - that is likely gonna be noticeable)

[old goat]

How much a shot hurts going in depends mostly on chance--does the needle hit a pain receptor in the skin or not. The skill and confidence of the person giving the shot may make a slight difference but if the needle hits a nerve it will seem like the injection took longer than if it didn't. No reason to think they messed up the first shot because you didn't feel as much the first time.

There are major nerves that can be hit with a deltoid injection (shoulder muscle) but that's an entirely different, more serious, and preventable issue than the needle hitting a skin nerve receptor--which is harmless and unpreventable.

[Skidog]

12 yr old signed up for shot 1 Tuesday....

[old goat]

J&J is more effective at preventing severe/critical illness >4 weeks after inoculation vs 2. If you get into the data, J&J is quite a bit more effective 6-8 weeks after inoculation where it is competitive with mRNA vaccine efficacy... (of course mRNA efficacy data is was measured 5-6 weeks after the first dose).

But for whatever reason (simplicity? realism?) they've chose "2 weeks after you last dose" as the metric for "fully vaccinated."

This is pretty rad and interesting. Can you share the data, and I apologize if it's upthread (I didn't notice it and struggle to keep up during busy times).

This is one article I found--they were studying antibody levels, not clinical disease, in a small number of volunteers. Antibody levels kept rising, even beyond 4 weeks, and also were higher if a second shot was given. I don't know if this is the data Summit was referring to. I did a Pub Med search which wouldn't include preprints, press releases, etc--only articles that have already appeared in print.

Edit--here's a better one--definitely better clinical efficacy at 28 days than at 14, and looks like efficacy continues to improve beyond 28 days, eyeballing figure 2.

[MontuckyFried]

Any reason we aren't giving the shot in the ass for maximum potential effectiveness as with some other injections. Seems you can't possibly miss with that target and lotsa muscle for proper release.

[riser4]

Any reason we aren't giving the shot in the ass for maximum potential effectiveness as with some other injections. Seems you can't possibly miss with that target and lotsa muscle for proper release.

You can certainly request that if that is what you are into. I have no idea if they will honor your request.

[Flounder]

Any reason we aren't giving the shot in the ass for maximum potential effectiveness as with some other injections. Seems you can't possibly miss with that target and lotsa muscle for proper release.

Are you sure you’re not from Boston? Not a big fan of San Adams but this commercial made me laugh.

https://youtu.be/N8AFHeaHp5U

[Ted Striker]

Any reason we aren't giving the shot in the ass...

...a million to one shot, Doc. Million to one.

[bennymac]

How much a shot hurts going in depends mostly on chance--does the needle hit a pain receptor in the skin or not. The skill and confidence of the person giving the shot may make a slight difference but if the needle hits a nerve it will seem like the injection took longer than if it didn't. No reason to think they messed up the first shot because you didn't feel as much the first time.

There are major nerves that can be hit with a deltoid injection (shoulder muscle) but that's an entirely different, more serious, and preventable issue than the needle hitting a skin nerve receptor--which is harmless and unpreventable.

Sure but to be clear you’re talking about pain from the needle piercing the skin (which is short lived and yes is just due to chance) and then pain post injection (which I suspect has little to do with pain receptors in the skin).

People not feeling any muscle pain post injection could be due to many reasons - the most likely is the individual immune system response to the vaccine - but it could also in some cases be due to the injection being delivered into fat between the skin and muscle (if a long enough needle is not used or the needle isn’t inserted deep enough).

[MontuckyFried]

Are you sure you’re not from Boston? Not a big fan of San Adams but this commercial made me laugh.

https://youtu.be/N8AFHeaHp5U

Haha. That's hilarious. Having gotten shots in the ass, I don't mind. Sucks to sit or do sit-ups for a couple days but like I said, I felt the tech couldn't screw it up quite as easy.

Serious question regarding the COVID shot, though. Would it be any more effective in general, or have they chosen the arm location for a specific reason? Any chance it's MORE effective in the arm than butt, or are we just trying to make people less averse to getting the poke to begin with since ass shots ain't for everyone.

[Ted Striker]

My guess is that they picked the intramuscular location most conducive to a mass vax clinic setting.

[Adolf Allerbush]

My guess is that they picked the intramuscular location most conducive to a mass vax clinic setting.

Montuckey, i'm sure you could have demanded to be jabbed in the ass...to each their own.