Ask the experts

[simple]

I think that, moreso than most other race formats, the course matters a lot for Super D. It's super fun on a great course, and super not fun on a bad course.

Which is how USACylcing helped kill Super D. The national championship courses were the stupidest tracks and Carl Decker would show up in a skin suit to get an aero advantage. I'm still a fan of when Mike West would kick the national pros asses. I could beat pros but not AC/CD Giant studs

[J. Barron DeJong]

You guys seem to be saying that, regardless of design, all suspension with the right curve and rate will act the same.
Sorry, in my experience, that's just not the case.

Suppose you designed a single pivot bike, then you designed a VPP, and a DW, and a Horst Link frame such that their instant centers all matched the pivot point of the single pivot bike at sag. You then make sure you design the rocker/shock linkage so they all have the same leverage ratio curves.

Those bikes are all going to pedal near identically. They have to, since the wheel is rotating around the same point, the reactionary force from the ground and the chain are reacting around the same point, and the leverage on the shock is the same. It’s not until the suspension moves away from the sag point that the instant centers on the various designs start to diverge, and that happens when you’re hitting bumps, not when you’re pedaling ‘efficiently’.

[HAB]

From the bikes I've tested, ML bikes seem to do a whole lot better at giving you your cake and eating it. They go down as well as HLs but, in my experience, as a group, they really do pedal noticeably better. They don't give up anything when the trail gets flat.
And I'm not talking about Specialized. My talking about current model Norcos, Transitions, and Konas.

Not sure which models you're talking about specifically, but Norco in particular has a history of making bikes with pretty low anti-squat values too. I'm totally on board with the point that your Ibis pedals better than a lot of the Horst link bikes that you've ridden, but what I (and everybody else) is saying is that those differences can readily be explained with quantifiable kinematic differences that are in no way inherent to the general layout.

Also, Konas aren't Horst link. They're a linkage driven single pivot, just like the Evils that you're touting so highly. Just tuned differently.

[toast2266]

Which is how USACylcing helped kill Super D. The national championship courses were the stupidest tracks and Carl Decker would show up in a skin suit to get an aero advantage. I'm still a fan of when Mike West would kick the national pros asses. I could beat pros but not AC/CD Giant studs

As much as anything, I think it's hard to find a good venue for Super D races. You need a long, fairly continuous descent over a couple thousand vert, but still with a bit of climbing in it. And the course needs to be technical enough to make the descent challenging and to dissuade the skin suit crowd. And the mass start means you need a course that allows passing. And you need a way to efficiently access the top, and the finish needs to be in an appropriate location for that sort of thing. And there should probably be reasonable access to the course so you can evac all the broken collarbones from the mass start carnage.

The enduro format just makes it way easier to put together a good / fun course.

[Roxtar]

Suppose you designed a single pivot bike, then you designed a VPP, and a DW, and a Horst Link frame such that their instant centers all matched the pivot point of the single pivot bike at sag. You then make sure you design the rocker/shock linkage so they all have the same leverage ratio curves.

Those bikes are all going to pedal near identically. They have to, since the wheel is rotating around the same point, the reactionary force from the ground and the chain are reacting around the same point, and the leverage on the shock is the same. It’s not until the suspension moves away from the sag point that the instant centers on the various designs start to diverge, and that happens when you’re hitting bumps, not when you’re pedaling ‘efficiently’.

But isn't the objective of the ML to have a floating instant center (The "V" in VPP) which allows you to move it throughout the travel, whereas the HL has a fixed IC? I realize this was a bigger deal before 1x but don't you think the huge 10-51 cassette still makes lining up the IC on the chainline an issue?

[Roxtar]

As much as anything, I think it's hard to find a good venue for Super D races. You need a long, fairly continuous descent over a couple thousand vert, but still with a bit of climbing in it. And the course needs to be technical enough to make the descent challenging and to dissuade the skin suit crowd. And the mass start means you need a course that allows passing. And you need a way to efficiently access the top, and the finish needs to be in an appropriate location for that sort of thing. And there should probably be reasonable access to the course so you can evac all the broken collarbones from the mass start carnage.

The enduro format just makes it way easier to put together a good / fun course.

That's why I always took issue with calling the Megavalanche an enduro.
It's always been a Super D.

[J. Barron DeJong]

But isn't the objective of the ML to have a floating instant center (The "V" in VPP) which allows you to move it throughout the travel, whereas the HL has a fixed IC? I realize this was a bigger deal before 1x but don't you think the huge 10-51 cassette still makes lining up the IC on the chainline an issue?

The only design with a fixed instant center is single pivot (and ‘faux-bar’ if you want to consider that as separate). HL, ML, DW, VPP, etc. all have ‘virtual’ instant centers, and those centers will all migrate differently as the suspension moves away from the sag point. But it’s the IC at sag that overwhelmingly affects how active/efficient the suspension is, and all the common designs allow for the IC to be placed in a suitable position at sag.

ETA: there’s nothing stopping a designer from placing the IC on the chainline with an HL.

[toast2266]

That's why I always took issue with calling the Megavalanche an enduro.
It's always been a Super D.

People used to call the Megavalanche a Super D. But I guess that term isn't marketable anymore.

[simple]

As much as anything, I think it's hard to find a good venue for Super D races. You need a long, fairly continuous descent over a couple thousand vert, but still with a bit of climbing in it. And the course needs to be technical enough to make the descent challenging and to dissuade the skin suit crowd. And the mass start means you need a course that allows passing. And you need a way to efficiently access the top, and the finish needs to be in an appropriate location for that sort of thing. And there should probably be reasonable access to the course so you can evac all the broken collarbones from the mass start carnage.

The enduro format just makes it way easier to put together a good / fun course.

Excellent points. That is why it was better as a grassroots event. Same goes for Enduro...it was better as a grassroots event. Nothing against actual promotors but I just like expert level chaos more than most people. Once you design for beginners or the opposite spectrum paid professionals you lose that grassroots element.

[Dantheman]

As much as anything, I think it's hard to find a good venue for Super D races. You need a long, fairly continuous descent over a couple thousand vert, but still with a bit of climbing in it. And the course needs to be technical enough to make the descent challenging and to dissuade the skin suit crowd. And the mass start means you need a course that allows passing. And you need a way to efficiently access the top, and the finish needs to be in an appropriate location for that sort of thing. And there should probably be reasonable access to the course so you can evac all the broken collarbones from the mass start carnage.

The enduro format just makes it way easier to put together a good / fun course.

BMT trail at Snowbird would be so perfect, except for maybe the mass start part, but that part is stupid and should be dropped anyway. But, no way would Snowbird management ever be non-lame enough to do it.

Sundance Super D is a good race (and not a mass start), but not being run this year.

[simple]

Without mass start it is just a downhill time trial.

[toast2266]

Excellent points. That is why it was better as a grassroots event. Same goes for Enduro...it was better as a grassroots event. Nothing against actual promotors but I just like expert level chaos more than most people. Once you design for beginners or the opposite spectrum paid professionals you lose that grassroots element.

Agreed. The newer enduros that are mostly just run within a lift served bike park are lame. I did the Trans BC a few years ago. That race is everything that enduros should be.

And also agreed that a Super D without a mass start is not a Super D, and not something that I am interested in. And one of the major upsides of the Super D format (as opposed to enduro) is that you don't need a timing system. Everyone starts at the same time, and whoever crosses the line first wins.

[Dantheman]

Fair enough. Snowbird would still be a perfect venue, and probably could accommodate the mass start part. It's a fun trail, easy access, pedally enough that you need good cardio to put down a fast time, but cardio won't win it. But, it'll never happen.

[toast2266]

Fair enough. Snowbird would still be a perfect venue, and probably could accommodate the mass start part. It's a fun trail, easy access, pedally enough that you need good cardio to put down a fast time, but cardio won't win it. But, it'll never happen.

You should organize an unofficial one.

We do that at our local hill. At the end of the last day of lift served biking in September, there's a super d from the top of the lifts down to a brewery in town. ~40 minute course, usually with around 4000' descending and maybe 500' climbing. It's very unofficial, there's no entry fee, there are no prizes, and the whole thing just happens by word of mouth, but it still gets 40-50 racers. Tons of fun.

[cydwhit]

As someone who is not all that fast, but likes to go as fast as I can, the real draw to entering an Enduro is getting to ride trails at speed, on a closed course, with support that I usually wouldn't be able too. I can do that any time I want in a bike park, without having to pay for registration and wait around for other people to drop. So the only Enduros I'll pay money for are those that run on trails that aren't usually open to the public (BME at Jackson) or trails where I'd usually worry about uphill traffic (Cariboo Jack).

Didn't Targhee used to do a Super D from the top of Peaked down Mill Creek? I'd enter that in a heartbeat. Bike parks with ancillary trail systems below them that follow some version of "ski hill road" seem like the perfect venue. Whitefish's looked awesome, Schweitzer would be a blast to race top to bottom on, Targhee has the potential, I'm sure plenty of other resorts do too. And mass starts are just more better.

[evasive_MT]

No BME at Jackson that I’m aware of.

Yes, GT did a super D from the top down Mill Creek for a number of years. It used to be associated with the Wydaho festival. I still have some socks and water bottles from it. They called it the Teton Dirt Classic.

[rideit]

IIRC, I did the Moab SuperD in 2010.
It went down LPS, the Snotch (or Notch?), and went down the old Porc road to the old trailhead. I was not particularly that fast, but it was a clusterfuck. Not much passing to be done on most of the single track. Time was made up on the old Jeep trail, though.
BabyBear/Andrew, do you remember if there was a mass start?
I don’t...

[cydwhit]

No BME at Jackson that I’m aware of.

Yes, GT did a super D from the top down Mill Creek for a number of years. It used to be associated with the Wydaho festival. I still have some socks and water bottles from it. They called it the Teton Dirt Classic.

Sorry, total brain fart, Montana Enduro Series at the Village.

Wydaho would be a lot cooler if it still had racing associated with it.

[evasive_MT]

Wydaho was fun for a few years, especially before they moved to the resort, but now I can’t see any reason to pay for crowds. We have enough friends in the valley that we don’t need guided rides in the woods, and the lift lines are at their longest. Demo availability was pretty poor, too. It wasn’t like an Outerbike.

[rideit]

Wydaho would be much better if they capped attendance.
And Evasive, I bet I could still show ya some stuff!

[evasive_MT]

No doubt. Sometime I want to get over the other side and ride Horsetail. I hiked all over those hills for 4 summers in my 20s.

[rideit]

That’s a great loop. (Ditch>Horsetail).
I prefer it in the fall as there are some nasty bogs that stay pretty wet all summer.

[t.odd]

Trans-Provence is the best format I've ever done, huge days, hike a bikes, liaisons as burly as the stages, and all fucking blind. Close second would be Pemberton Enduro a couple years ago which was also blind, so much so that even the stage start timers didn't know where the finish was, but even though I generally knew the terrain I didn't pre practice lots. This trend of many days, and weeks for some events, of announcing the courses and pre-practice is total horseshit. Crankzilla was probably my favourite Whistler EWS, well except for 2015 when I finally won my masters class, but too many sissies whined about big hard days with tight transitions, so now it's basically a lift served event.

[jono]

the HL has a fixed IC?

I'm just gonna make that one CalPoly and one Purdue, then

One thing to note here on the Horst Link term: there are two very different versions of that 4-bar that might be going by the same name and causing some confusion: the short top link can be roughly vertical (Rocky Mountain), putting the IC down by the chain, or like Special-ed liked for a couple decades, which did not. Very different look, very different results.

But make no mistake, Special-ed didn't ask engineers that knew kinematics or vehicle dynamics. I don't know if that's because they didn't hire any (quite possible, especially if you saw the prototype FSR they showed Bicycle Guide and/or Bicycling BITD, then changed), or if it's just because they're in a consumer-facing industry where the engineers do what the marketers tell em. Buying good reviews ain't cheap and they had a whole magazine industry to prop up.

[jono]

Wydaho would be much better if they capped attendance.
And Evasive, I bet I could still show ya some stuff!

Wydaho would be much better if they capped attendance.
And Evasive, I bet I could still show ya some stuff!

Is that meant as a subtle BBI invite? Hint hint...