What's the number?

[VTeton]

My mortgage will still be kicking around in retirement but at 2.99% I am having a hard time paying off early....

I probably should pay it off at some point.

[Mazderati]

okay tips up that actually is super helpful

thanks mag, that's exactly what I needed

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References and examples are a bit dated and the last revision was before the financial crisis but it is still a great book largely written and explained in lay terms.

[RootSkier]

This thread is super interesting.

I laugh at the HSA as an investment/savings vehicle because the rootskier family has been maxing HSA contributions for years and we've never had a cent left over at the end of the year. I get it is still a tax benefit, but still.

[LeeLau]

References and examples are a bit dated and the last revision was before the financial crisis but it is still a great book largely written and explained in lay terms.

MMMs blogs and resources are superb not just for beginners but for everyone but a reading list is never a bad idea. Here's mine with the caveat that I am heavily biased to the assumption that everything in finance is a lie until proven otherwise. Cut and pasted from different context so a bit clumsy

‐-----
Quite a few people have asked me about stock markets, investing and how to get knowledge

When I tell them how much work it is they usually give up right away.

But Mr xxx reminded me that it really does make for fascinating reading. Here's my list of some starters

sec.gov

The Canadian Securities Course

Intelligent Investor - Ben Graham

Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds - Mackay

Devil Take the Hindmost. - Chancellor

"World's Greatest Trader" - Jesse Livermore's biography.

Scam Dogs and MoMo Mamas' - Emshwiller

Irrational Exuberance - Robert Shiller.

Fooled by Randomness - Nassim Nicholas Tale

When Genius Failed - Lowenstein

Catch Me If You Can - Abagnale

Financial Shenanigans - Schlitt

The Education of a Speculator - Niederhoffer

Broadbandits - Om Malik

Too Big to Fail- Sorkin

Econned - Yves smith

Candlestick Charting Explained - Morris

Most of my favourite reading is about Scams and short selling. I'm sure others have recommendations. Let's hear them

[skivan]

[QUOTE=Tips^Up;6180020]

okay, I'll bite

wifey and I are in our early 30s. we live within our means but aren't "money smart". I know fuckall about tax write-offs or investments or saving strategies other than maxing out my 401k and playing around on robin hood.

where can I get myself edumacated? any good youtube videos or books?

sorry, jong here, but the first step to fixing ignorance is admitting it
/QUOTE]

Spend less than you earn; invest it early and often. This is a good starter:


WHAT
0. Establish an emergency fund to your satisfaction
1. Contribute to your 401k up to any company match
2. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~5% or more above the current 10-year Treasury note yield.
3. Max Health Savings Account (HSA) if eligible.
4. Max Traditional IRA or Roth (or backdoor Roth) based on income level
5. Max 401k (if
- 401k fees are lower than available in an IRA, or
- you need the 401k deduction to be eligible for (and desire) a tIRA deduction, or
- you earn too much for an IRA deduction and prefer traditional to Roth, then
swap #4 and #5)
6. Fund a mega backdoor Roth if applicable.
7. Pay off any debts with interest rates ~3% or more above the current 10-year Treasury note yield.
8. Invest in a taxable account and/or fund a 529 with any extra.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/in...estment-order/

Jim Collins another good resource for making sure your bases are cover/allocated simply. Complementary to mmm.

https://jlcollinsnh.com

I’ve given his book “simple path to wealth” to a few friends/sibling that had those same questions. Discovered here on TGR some years ago.

[MiddleOfNight]

Civics and basic finance should be required subjects for every kid in school. It's almost like some people might prefer the masses to be passive, uninformed and broke. Nah that's crazy talk.

but .. I know what a mitochondria is?

Oh and last thing. The vast majority people of are financial retards. Finance and the stock markets are a zero sum game. To get winners there must be losers. I find it to be the height of personal failure how many people refuse to learn about financials basics

sure but if we educated the masses, who would be the losers?

[Mazderati]

I'm big on value and my list reads accordingly:

Security Analysis - Graham and Dodd
Seminal book but not light. Borderline textbook. Actually, G&D may have used it as a text at Columbia.

Margin of Safety - Klarman
Same vein as Intelligent Investor. Hard to find. pdfs are on the internet.

Common Stocks and Uncommon Profits - Fisher
Worthwhile but I didn't find it as good as the others.

The Snowball - Schroeder
Buffett's biography. Some great history in this one including background on Salomon and LTC.

[Mudfoot]

Some people make a career out of making money using other people's money. Had a buddy who used to say that you are not really rich unless you are a $million in debt. I've always felt that true freedom is freedom from debt. If things go bad and all you've got to worry about is the cost of feeding and sheltering yourself life looks a lot less stressful. Having a monthly nut with interest to worry about means every time you stop making money for a minute you are going backwards. If you are debt free you no longer feel like you are swimming upstream. Credit is generally not a positive step forward.

I grew up with the don't buy something unless you have the money to pay for it mind set and it has worked pretty well. Our mortgage is the only real big exception. Could never imagine how scary it would be living pay check to pay check like the majority of people in the US. A lot of people got caught way short when they lost their jobs in the Pandemic this year.

Save and invest as much as you can. Getting old sucks, but getting old and being poor really sucks.

[tgapp]

[QUOTE=skivan;6180220]

Jim Collins another good resource for making sure your bases are cover/allocated simply. Complementary to mmm.

https://jlcollinsnh.com

I’ve given his book “simple path to wealth” to a few friends/sibling that had those same questions. Discovered here on TGR some years ago.

thanks, i just bought it. i've got a ton in my kindle backlog but i will read it. this is the sort of shit i need right now.

[MiddleOfNight]

Our mortgage is the only real big exception.

Same.
The next big question in retire asap plan is health care. Getting it through work now, buying it on free market looks really spendy. hyuudge gap between now and medicare.
Combine insurance payment with taxes, insurance, and living humbly .. still a big dang number.
Maybe some day get a 'less crappy' job with some benes. idk.

[Mazderati]

Same.
The next big question in retire asap plan is health care. Getting it through work now, buying it on free market looks really spendy. hyuudge gap between now and medicare.
Combine insurance payment with taxes, insurance, and living humbly .. still a big dang number.
Maybe some day get a 'less crappy' job with some benes. idk.

I would love to know the answer because healthcare in the US is fucking pathetic and a huDge impediment to early retirement. Apart from a part time job that includes benefits (does that even count as retirement?), the options seem to be a) pay out the ass or b) manipulate your income stream or taxes to show minimal income. My mom retired a few years early and her monthly bill on the open market was around $700.

[El Chupacabra]

This thread is super interesting.

I laugh at the HSA as an investment/savings vehicle because the rootskier family has been maxing HSA contributions for years and we've never had a cent left over at the end of the year. I get it is still a tax benefit, but still.

The HSA as an investment vehicle works if you can max it, invest within it, and pay for medical expenses out of other funds while letting the HSA grow. Tax free money in, tax free growth, tax free withdrawals within specified parameters.

If you are investing in taxable accounts (non IRA, non 401k) while spending HSA money each year, you can use this to better advantage.

[XXX-er]

Yeh but what IS that plan

Ppl talk about plans and conservative and shit and I'm just sitting here wondering how the fuck to start with any of this.

Do I put my money under a mattress? In the walls in the outlets? Attics or crawl spaces? Big bills vs small ones: does it matter?



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uh there was no plan

I know that I don't pay attention to the market so I'm a buy and hold guy

I know that I probably could have made more % on my money but in the end I think it was more important that i didn't lose the money I had saved/ made when others lost their shirt.

Back in 07on a whim I sold the house at the peak of local housing market moved west to ski/ drink/ smoke/ party, forgot to re-invest the money staying in cash to miss the 08 stock market downturn, 2 years later housing was depressed (thank you america) which allowed me to get back into the RE/ slum lord gig qualifying for a morgage without a job, that was the beginning of the good times and now i'm golden

so on paper i look like a fucking genius but you and i know better eh

[muted]

Then there is the Nashville Retirement Plan. By an RV, some bomb making materials, and three weeks after retiring you hit the open road and not worry about money, investing, your 401k or anything anymore.

[ötzi]

I guess that guy really liked working.

[ntblanks]

This thread is super interesting.

I laugh at the HSA as an investment/savings vehicle because the rootskier family has been maxing HSA contributions for years and we've never had a cent left over at the end of the year. I get it is still a tax benefit, but still.

the philosophy is to leave those $ invested and pay current medical expenses out of pocket (not everyone can afford to do this, of course). let the HSA grow. then, several years later, you can use it to (a) reimburse yourself for years'-ago OOP payments or (b) pay new/current expenses.

[ncskier]

okay, I'll bite

wifey and I are in our early 30s. we live within our means but aren't "money smart". I know fuckall about tax write-offs or investments or saving strategies other than maxing out my 401k and playing around on robin hood.

where can I get myself edumacated? any good youtube videos or books?

sorry, jong here, but the first step to fixing ignorance is admitting it

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Bogleheads forum. Not lee lau level trading but for the buy and hold crowd, a great resource.
When I wanted to learn about fisting at Christmas, cake farts and station wagons I came to TGR.
For personal finance bogleheads forum.


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[ncskier]

This thread is super interesting.

I laugh at the HSA as an investment/savings vehicle because the rootskier family has been maxing HSA contributions for years and we've never had a cent left over at the end of the year. I get it is still a tax benefit, but still.

Possibly maybe your wife doesn’t work.
My wife works and we both have hsa. So she does family plan for her and kids pays expenses for their group. Then I have my own, which gets invested in index funds. Have a pretty large stash after investing and saving for 10 years in that one.
I pay for routine doctor out of pocket and have been lucky with health. We gambled and won. By retirement we would have 150-200k easily in my hsa which is growing tax free and can be used for premiums or Roth conversions.


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[AdironRider]

Bogleheads forum. Not lee lau level trading but for the buy and hold crowd, a great resource.
When I wanted to learn about fisting at Christmas, cake farts and station wagons I came to TGR.
For personal finance bogleheads forum.


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There is certainly some great info there, but I think the bogleheads forum tends to ebb a little to conservative for most realistic situations.

For example, if you followed their advice to a T, you should never buy a house unless you have 25% plus for a down payment (for the average house in the US that is 75k), are fully funding both your wife and your own retirement plans (thats 39k a year), have a paid off car (lets say 25k), and zero credit card debt. I'm sorry, but if you can afford all of that already you've already won the game.

Those qualifications basically make it impossible to buy a starter house for basically anyone but a trust funder or a tech bro millionaire, which is basically no one statistically. Not even a mid-thirties doctor could swing that.

They also think the 4% rule is entirely way to risky, nevermind it has proven to outlast almost all retirement fund situations 99% of the time, and you should really just plan on withdrawing 2-3% a year. I always chuckle at this considering RMD's starting at like 72 are bit over 3.5% and only increase from there.

[shroom]

+1 i’m young but have done the same HSA gamble and won for 10 years now, if you don’t have meaningful recurring health costs consider it

r/financialindependence was good 5+ years ago and may still be, biggerpockets as well

[ncskier]

There is certainly some great info there, but I think the bogleheads forum tends to ebb a little to conservative for most realistic situations.

For example, if you followed their advice to a T, you should never buy a house unless you have 25% plus for a down payment (for the average house in the US that is 75k), are fully funding both your wife and your own retirement plans (thats 39k a year), have a paid off car (lets say 25k), and zero credit card debt. I'm sorry, but if you can afford all of that already you've already won the game.

Those qualifications basically make it impossible to buy a starter house for basically anyone but a trust funder or a tech bro millionaire, which is basically no one statistically. Not even a mid-thirties doctor could swing that.

They also think the 4% rule is entirely way to risky, nevermind it has proven to outlast almost all retirement fund situations 99% of the time, and you should really just plan on withdrawing 2-3% a year. I always chuckle at this considering RMD's starting at like 72 are bit over 3.5% and only increase from there.

Fair enough, but you’d also learn to keep it simple, never use an Edward Jones advisor and stay the course to win.
Your mileage may vary, but it’s worked for me from an investing standpoint. I tend to ignore the personal lifestyle chatter. As evidenced that I’m currently sitting at stein Erickson lodge eating lunch with my family on a snowy day and I’m no tech bro. But I do balance experiences with saving. You are not promised tomorrow. I am not spending $200 for a snow globe though.



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[AdironRider]

Oh for sure, I just think a lot of the boglehead dudes really have selective memories from when they were younger.

Like the top thread right now is some early 30's guy contemplating buying a house. Him and his wife supposedly make 300k+ plus, have over 100k for a down payment, etc, and these old fucks are telling him to just keep renting because he isn't 100% positive they will be there for 10 years. The one's that do think he should buy a house are throwing out numbers like 450k max. Like 450k houses exist anywhere near a place where two professionals bring down 150k+ each. Nevermind the mortgage on that with their down payment is under 36k a year or barely over 10% piti.

You can tell he's read the forum because he is scared of maintenance costs on a 450k house with his income. That household makes more in 2 weeks than almost any home repair outside of a new roof will cost.

At least a few posters are basically laughing off the renting thing as basically being unobtanium in a decent school system. Good dose of reality.

[neufox47]

For example, if you followed their advice to a T, you should never buy a house unless you have 25% plus for a down payment (for the average house in the US that is 75k), are fully funding both your wife and your own retirement plans (thats 39k a year), have a paid off car (lets say 25k), and zero credit card debt. I'm sorry, but if you can afford all of that already you've already won the game.

Those qualifications basically make it impossible to buy a starter house for basically anyone but a trust funder or a tech bro millionaire, which is basically no one statistically. Not even a mid-thirties doctor could swing that.

They also think the 4% rule is entirely way to risky, nevermind it has proven to outlast almost all retirement fund situations 99% of the time, and you should really just plan on withdrawing 2-3% a year. I always chuckle at this considering RMD's starting at like 72 are bit over 3.5% and only increase from there.

That sounds like absolutely horrible financial advice that is geared entirely towards risk avoidance rather than wealth appreciation.

[XXX-er]

^^ not part of the equation ?

[Conundrum]

Adiron-how do you know $450k houses don't exist where a couple can pull in $300k a year and how do you know couples other than trust funders and techbros can't have $100k liquid, paid for cars, are maxing out their 401ks, and have no credit card debt? I'll disagree with you on both.