"Progressive" hardtails - yay or nay?

[El Chupacabra]

But reach measurement alone is not the end-all of frame sizing. ETT still matters, unless you never sit down.

[Bushwacka]

on SS hardtail I almost never sit down....stand to climb , stand with seat dropper to go down. only time I sit is for mellow climbs/traverses.

[Robik]

I think my new Cotic Bfe Max belongs here

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[ZomblibulaX]

The blue looks sweet. I bet that thing's a hoot.

[beaterdit]

Okay hardcore hardtail heroes,

I am borrowing a friend's XL 2017 Nimble 9 for a few weeks, and his girlfriend is going to try out my M Riot. The N9 has 475mm reach (before possible over-fork and ~1.5 degree angleset), and my Riot has a 438mm reach (before 20mm over-fork). I'm 5'9, ape index around 0.

I really like how the N9 rides, except it's really hard on my hands. I thought it was going to take a beating to my ankles/knees in the rough stuff, but I find that my grip strength is my far my limiting factor. The meat of my thumbs get especially worked. I tried flattening the brake lever angle, and after the ride I moved the levers outboard a bit.

Are my hand woes intrinsic to riding a hardtail on chunky trails (e.g. vibrations being transmitted up the frame from the back wheel)? Or is the problem that I have a lot more weight on the bar, because the reach is much longer? Or maybe it's the bar/grip combo?

Next question: [how much] would it suck to have my one MTB be a hardtail in Western WA?

I'm late to this party but keep in mind, the new NN in large has a 475 reach, the XL is 500. BUT it also has a WAY steeper STA (77* vs 73*) which will put you much closer to the bars when seated. I'm 5'7" with a 33" inseam and +3 ape. I'm usually between small and medium but always ride mediums. Still end up with a long seatpost but with steeper STAs these days it's not an issue with being too stretched out. I have neck issues that bug me if I am so I prefer a more upright position. My med NN (450 reach, 5mm shorter than my firebird) feels short when seated and spot on when standing. I'm geared so spend the majority of time climbing in the saddle, it's very comfy. I feel like the large will be good for you. As far as it being your only bike. With the exception of Moab terrain or hucks to flat, I don't feel like it'd be a huge issue. My hands get a bit more tired than on my Firebird but then that one's got 20mm more travel to work with and I run it more plush off the top. I run the front end a bit firmer on the NN and have less travel to work with. That said, the fork on there is pretty good, Marz Z1. I highly recommend the bike, even as your only ride, but I definitely wouldn't skimp on the fork if your having hand issues.

I think my new Cotic Bfe Max belongs here

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This is baller!

[Dantheman]

This is baller!

x2! Stoked to see the Mezzer on there.

[Robik]

x2! Stoked to see the Mezzer on there.

With an overall dimensions of this bike (510mm reach, 1271mm wheelbase, 444mm chain stays) Mezzer doesn't look out of place. It's a beefy build for sure.

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[Dantheman]

It's a totally appropriate fork for that bike. I'm just a huge Manitou/Hayes homer and it's great to see them getting recognized for how good their new stuff really is.

[Robik]

It's a totally appropriate for that bike. I'm just a huge Manitou/Hayes homer and it's great to see them getting recognized for how good their new stuff really is.

I might just slap Dominion A4 in place of my current Magura MT7 as all the reviews rave about them.

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[SchralphMacchio]

Hardtail fanatics, curious about rear tire pressures.

Care to share? Frame, wheel/rim and tire size, plastic or metal rims, liner or no, riding weight and terrain would be helpful.

Currently on 29 x 2.4, 35mm IW aluminum rims, GG Pedalhead, steepish clay and loam with some roots and rocks but not aweful, jump and flow trails too ... 135 lbs 145 kitted.

22-23 back there is fine on flow trails. But I get my ass kicked on rooty and rocky step down trails above 21 psi. I like how it rides at 19.5 in that kind of terrain but I’ve had bottom outs and a rim dent.

I’m gonna go up to a 2.6 to get more volume in which should help a smidge with bottom out ... but I’m thinking I need a liner in the rear ...

[Robik]

Hardtail fanatics, curious about rear tire pressures.

Care to share? Frame, wheel/rim and tire size, plastic or metal rims, liner or no, riding weight and terrain would be helpful.

Currently on 29 x 2.4, 35mm IW aluminum rims, GG Pedalhead, steepish clay and loam with some roots and rocks but not aweful, jump and flow trails too ... 135 lbs 145 kitted.

22-23 back there is fine on flow trails. But I get my ass kicked on rooty and rocky step down trails above 21 psi. I like how it rides at 19.5 in that kind of terrain but I’ve had bottom outs and a rim dent.

I’m gonna go up to a 2.6 to get more volume in which should help a smidge with bottom out ... but I’m thinking I need a liner in the rear ...

Tire insert?

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[Bushwacka]

Hardtail fanatics, curious about rear tire pressures.

Care to share? Frame, wheel/rim and tire size, plastic or metal rims, liner or no, riding weight and terrain would be helpful.

Currently on 29 x 2.4, 35mm IW aluminum rims, GG Pedalhead, steepish clay and loam with some roots and rocks but not aweful, jump and flow trails too ... 135 lbs 145 kitted.

22-23 back there is fine on flow trails. But I get my ass kicked on rooty and rocky step down trails above 21 psi. I like how it rides at 19.5 in that kind of terrain but I’ve had bottom outs and a rim dent.

I’m gonna go up to a 2.6 to get more volume in which should help a smidge with bottom out ... but I’m thinking I need a liner in the rear ...

I am MUCH heavier than you. 200lb running a 2.6 Spez Ed Eliminator BLCK DMND casing on 35mm internal rims and can run as low as 15-16 psi in rooted terrain and do nt get rim hits... I have to run about 19 on flow trails or I get rollover. The heavier casing and large volume really let me run lower pressure. My guess is at your weight GRID trail would be all that is needed.

The reality is a hardtail would never be ideal for really small chunky terrain especially on faster/flatter sections. I feel like I suffer less when its steep, but if its flattish and chunk I start to hate my Hardtail.

[iriponsnow]

I think my new Cotic Bfe Max belongs here

That looks SICK!

Here’s my new SS project. Hope to build over the winter:

[snowaddict91]

That looks SICK!

Here’s my new SS project. Hope to build over the winter:

I'll be curious to hear how you like it. I'm thinking about picking one up soon. Been a long time since I've been on a hardtail.

[Bushwacka]

I'll be curious to hear how you like it. I'm thinking about picking one up soon. Been a long time since I've been on a hardtail.

The 2021 geo is much different than the 2020 and eariler. Supposely the 2021s ride more supple as well.....

[snowaddict91]

The 2021 geo is much different than the 2020 and eariler. Supposely the 2021s ride more supple as well.....

Yeah, the 2021 DL is what I think I'm after. As cool as the ESD looks, I don't know if a 63 HA is what I need for crushing desert miles. I wouldn't mind throwing a leg over one though.

[El Chupacabra]

If the Honzo ESD has your interest, On One has the "Hello Dave" with similar ultra slack geometry. Current sale has the complete bike at about $2000 US shipped to US.

https://www.planetx.co.uk/i/q/CBOOHD...-mountain-bike

I like the parts on the Kona more, and if it's on any sort of sale at all, it'll be close in price.

[Robik]

Yeah, the 2021 DL is what I think I'm after. As cool as the ESD looks, I don't know if a 63 HA is what I need for crushing desert miles. I wouldn't mind throwing a leg over one though.

Since you already have the frame, any further advices won't be much useful. For single speed on more aggro side I'd also recommend RSD Middle Child.

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[SchralphMacchio]

I am MUCH heavier than you. 200lb running a 2.6 Spez Ed Eliminator BLCK DMND casing on 35mm internal rims and can run as low as 15-16 psi in rooted terrain and do nt get rim hits... I have to run about 19 on flow trails or I get rollover. The heavier casing and large volume really let me run lower pressure. My guess is at your weight GRID trail would be all that is needed.

The reality is a hardtail would never be ideal for really small chunky terrain especially on faster/flatter sections. I feel like I suffer less when its steep, but if its flattish and chunk I start to hate my Hardtail.

You’re so right about steeper terrain vs faster flatter sections. When I ride trails that drops like 700’ or more in well under a mile, with huge ass rocks and chunk, I love this bike. I rode one that dropped 1500’ in over 3 miles with roots and small rocks and suffered - mostly on the less steep bits.

How does that Eliminator do with wet clay? I was planning on putting a 2.6 Butcher Grid in the back as soon as it rains, because that’s what I run up front and it clears mud so well. I am skeptical that a Purgatory Grid will bite and then clear wet clay as well as the Butcher. But the Eliminator pattern doesn’t look too bad for clogging up, and probably rolls faster than the Butcher.

Right now I’m running a 2.4 Trail King, which clears mud, but only bites well when it’s leaned over on edge, and yeah I like the feel of 2.6 better.


My Bronson is out of commission right now, so I pulled my daughter’s bike seat off the front and swapped back in my short stem wide bar cockpit to ride this as my main ride for all trails until my Bronson is up and running again. Love this thing!

[Bushwacka]

The eliminator does nt clear well... it does how ever roll pretty fast for such a "burly" tire.

I might go Hilly Billy Front, and Butcher Rear for leaves / mud once season changes here. I only posted because you can get much lower air pressures on the stiffer sidewalls.

[SchralphMacchio]

Cool thanks. I’ll stick with 29 x 2.6 Butcher grid front and back, dial in the pressure for best feel, and if I bottom out again I’ll get an insert for the rear.

[snowaddict91]

Seems like the geometry is pretty progressive on the new Giant Fathom, right?


https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/bikes-fathom-2021

Not sure how I feel about their in-house fork though, but I suppose for that price one could swap it out.

[Andeh]

I have a question for all you hardtail aficionados: how do you address the undamped pedal bob from the rear wheel? Or does it just not bother you?

I had a Chameleon for about a year and a half, and eventually sold it because I never really had fun on it. Part of it was that the geometry was shit, but an equal part was that the undamped pedal bob coming from the rear wheel drove me nuts. It started out with 27.5x3.0 tires, went down to 27.5x2.8, then 2.6, then 29x2.4/2.5. I tried pressures everywhere from 12 psi on the clown shoes to 22 psi on the 29" tires. I weigh about 165 without gear. Rim width was 40mm on the clown shoes and 27mm for 29. Are tire inserts the key to making hardtails not feel like shit? For what it's worth, I hate riding with my full suspension bike locked out too, for the same reason.

[HAB]

Not running big dumb balloon tires, and putting more air in them?


I'm generally running ~32psi rear in 2.4ish tires on my hardtail. I weigh about 165 and am in western WA, so not super rocky.

[jamal]

Yeah that. And I'm really picky about my tire pressures. I shoot for not too much squish to bottom out or squirm around/roll over too much but is compliant enough to soak up the little things and give that stuck to the ground feeling. On a 2.25 vittoria mezcal and like 23psi by my gauge. I'm about 160. And the bigger the tire, the more of a difference even 1-2psi makes so it's somewhat important to have a good gauge.

The other thing is you kind of get used to it. When I've been riding road a lot I notice the tire squish more. But my cyclocross tubulars for example are a lot softer sometimes, like 20/22psi in a 33 for a muddy race. That you definitely notice on a hardpack/paved section. Almost bouncing off the rim on a hard pedal stroke.