"Progressive" hardtails - yay or nay?

[NuMexJoe]

Thought I'd posted my Waltly Ti SS in this thread, but it seems not, so here it is. When my Gen 1 Canfield N9 cracked, I contacted Waltly, gave them them the geometry I wanted reproduced, did a bit of back & forth on cable routing & gussets, then a couple months later I had a "custom" Ti frame for $900 shipped. Transferred everything over from the N9 (including the headbadge) and it was exactly 1 lb lighter complete. With the old skool 27.2 Moots layback post, Ti rails on the Gobi saddle, and a 15* x 800mm Oddity Cycles bar, it's a pretty comfy ride, and rips just like the Canfield. My alum. GG Smash gets more use, but the SS is my favorite.

[tellybele]

Thought I'd posted my Waltly Ti SS in this thread, but it seems not, so here it is. When my Gen 1 Canfield N9 cracked, I contacted Waltly, gave them them the geometry I wanted reproduced, did a bit of back & forth on cable routing & gussets, then a couple months later I had a "custom" Ti frame for $900 shipped. it's a pretty comfy ride, and rips just like the Canfield. My fully gets more use, but the SS is my favorite.

I did the same thing back in 2013 RE: custom Ti frame with N9 geo and it being my favorite rig to ride. Dang, Waltly - $900 is a bit less than half of what I paid. If I was in the market, I'd be contacting Waltly with Canfield 1st GenGeo.

[HankScorpio]

The reach on my 5 year old Chromag Surface now feels crazy short after riding my new Hightower all season. Fuck. Now I need a size large 29er hardtail frame with a 490 mm-ish reach.


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[HAB]

The reach on my 5 year old Chromag Surface now feels crazy short after riding my new Hightower all season. Fuck. Now I need a size large 29er hardtail frame with a 490 mm-ish reach.


Sent from my iPhone using TGR Forums

Kona says hi.

https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_esd.cfm

[Robik]

Every time I think I need full suspension, I sell my aggro hardtail in favor of full squish. And then I start missing that solid feeling in the rear. Kona Honzo AL L -> Specialized Stumpjumper Comp L -> Pole Taival L -> Specialized Stumpjumper Evo 29 S3 -> RSD Middle Child XL -> 2019 Norco Sight C9 XL -> now I'm building '20 Cotic Bfemax XL. Will pair it with Manitou Mezzer Pro set at 160mm, 29 wheelset, Magura MT7 brakes...

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[jackstraw]

now I'm building '20 Cotic Bfemax XL. Will pair it with Manitou Mezzer Pro set at 160mm, 29 wheelset, Magura MT7 brakes...

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Interesting. What made you chose that one? I assumed if I built a hardtail I'd run a 130-140 fork and short chainstay. But I have really looked into it because I'm a year or more out. That one seems pretty dialed for descents. Raked out, big shock, and longer wheelbase.

[Robik]

When I had my RSD Middle Child with Cane Creek Helm, I dropped the travel to 140 and haven't found any benefits from steeper angles or shorter travel fork on ascends but was missing extra 20mm of travel on fast rough descends

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[Bushwacka]

Just order a Nimble 9 to replace my 2012 Kona Honzo. Really wanted a new 2021 Honzo, but wouldnt get one for months.

I hoping I got the right size. My trance(perfect fit except for slack seat angle) is 468mm reach, My Honzo which is too short is 420mm(old Size M), I got the size M Nimble 9 which is a 450mm reach. Do to pinkbike classifieds I think I may keep my entire cost of the build to sub $2k. Well unless I spring for some I9 Hydra SS hubs.

[HankScorpio]

Kona says hi.

https://www.konaworld.com/honzo_esd.cfm

That almost fits the bill but a 63 deg. HTA is a bit slack.

[Robik]

Just order a Nimble 9 to replace my 2012 Kona Honzo. Really wanted a new 2021 Honzo, but wouldnt get one for months.

I hoping I got the right size. My trance(perfect fit except for slack seat angle) is 468mm reach, My Honzo which is too short is 420mm(old Size M), I got the size M Nimble 9 which is a 450mm reach. Do to pinkbike classifieds I think I may keep my entire cost of the build to sub $2k. Well unless I spring for some I9 Hydra SS hubs.

Frames should start showing up in October

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[toast2266]

That almost fits the bill but a 63 deg. HTA is a bit slack.

Unsagged though. It'll be 65ish once the fork sags in.

[El Chupacabra]

That almost fits the bill but a 63 deg. HTA is a bit slack.

The regular (not ESD) Honzos are slacker for next year, but not that slack.

[Toddball]

Okay hardcore hardtail heroes,

I am borrowing a friend's XL 2017 Nimble 9 for a few weeks, and his girlfriend is going to try out my M Riot. The N9 has 475mm reach (before possible over-fork and ~1.5 degree angleset), and my Riot has a 438mm reach (before 20mm over-fork). I'm 5'9, ape index around 0.

I really like how the N9 rides, except it's really hard on my hands. I thought it was going to take a beating to my ankles/knees in the rough stuff, but I find that my grip strength is my far my limiting factor. The meat of my thumbs get especially worked. I tried flattening the brake lever angle, and after the ride I moved the levers outboard a bit.

Are my hand woes intrinsic to riding a hardtail on chunky trails (e.g. vibrations being transmitted up the frame from the back wheel)? Or is the problem that I have a lot more weight on the bar, because the reach is much longer? Or maybe it's the bar/grip combo?

Next question: [how much] would it suck to have my one MTB be a hardtail in Western WA?

[toast2266]

Okay hardcore hardtail heroes,

I am borrowing a friend's XL 2017 Nimble 9 for a few weeks, and his girlfriend is going to try out my M Riot. The N9 has 475mm reach (before possible over-fork and ~1.5 degree angleset), and my Riot has a 438mm reach (before 20mm over-fork). I'm 5'9, ape index around 0.

I really like how the N9 rides, except it's really hard on my hands. I thought it was going to take a beating to my ankles/knees in the rough stuff, but I find that my grip strength is my far my limiting factor. The meat of my thumbs get especially worked. I tried flattening the brake lever angle, and after the ride I moved the levers outboard a bit.

Are my hand woes intrinsic to riding a hardtail on chunky trails (e.g. vibrations being transmitted up the frame from the back wheel)? Or is the problem that I have a lot more weight on the bar, because the reach is much longer? Or maybe it's the bar/grip combo?

Next question: [how much] would it suck to have my one MTB be a hardtail in Western WA?

I'd say your hand issue is all of the above; more weight on the hands, plus general hardtail stiffness. Plus the N9 is stiff by hardtail standards. And obviously the quality of the fork on there will matter.

While I love riding the hardtail, I definitely wouldn't want it to be my only bike. But ymmv.

[Toddball]

I'd say your hand issue is all of the above; more weight on the hands, plus general hardtail stiffness. Plus the N9 is stiff by hardtail standards. And obviously the quality of the fork on there will matter.

While I love riding the hardtail, I definitely wouldn't want it to be my only bike. But ymmv.

Unfortunately apartment + grad student salary = one bike. Plus the new Honzo ESD looks sweet. Should probably hold out until I have a real job, though.

[Touring_Sedan]

My wrists definitely feel it during a ride on the hardtail. I think my weight distribution and body language is significantly different on that bike and I'm certainly more "gripped."

[ZomblibulaX]

would it suck to have my one MTB be a hardtail in Western WA?

I'm running HT only this year ('15 TranAm 275, Fox 36) in the south San Juans. Need to sell my Warden while it's still worth something so there it is. I don't find it to be a limiting factor with the trails I choose to ride, but to some extent with how I ride them. If you want to go full attack mode, you certainly can on a modern hardtail, but something's got to give, and that something is usually me. For daily rides around town, I don't even bother with a FS bike. For big rides in the high country, well, it slows me down some on descents, but I'm trying not to get killed out there anyway. I'm not one to go balls out if it means I'm going to blow up a wheel, but I can still get around plenty good on the HT in anything I'm riding around here. If I lived in Moab, well, that would pretty much suck.

[bodywhomper]

So you all are soft?!

[caulfield]

Next question: [how much] would it suck to have my one MTB be a hardtail in Western WA?

I always want to do this, also for apartment reasons. I never do because I don't like riding alone and my buddies are never going to ride hardtails. If you usually ride solo, I say go for it.

side note, I clicked on the link in your sig and "the park next to the Woodland Park Zoo" cracks me up.

[Bushwacka]

Okay hardcore hardtail heroes,

I am borrowing a friend's XL 2017 Nimble 9 for a few weeks, and his girlfriend is going to try out my M Riot. The N9 has 475mm reach (before possible over-fork and ~1.5 degree angleset), and my Riot has a 438mm reach (before 20mm over-fork). I'm 5'9, ape index around 0.

I really like how the N9 rides, except it's really hard on my hands. I thought it was going to take a beating to my ankles/knees in the rough stuff, but I find that my grip strength is my far my limiting factor. The meat of my thumbs get especially worked. I tried flattening the brake lever angle, and after the ride I moved the levers outboard a bit.

Are my hand woes intrinsic to riding a hardtail on chunky trails (e.g. vibrations being transmitted up the frame from the back wheel)? Or is the problem that I have a lot more weight on the bar, because the reach is much longer? Or maybe it's the bar/grip combo?

Next question: [how much] would it suck to have my one MTB be a hardtail in Western WA?

I am 5'9 as well, with 27 inch inseam. Not sure what that is in Ape index.....


So I just tried a little costly experiment and at the last minute switch my order M N9 to a L N9. I can for sure say that the position of my hands was too high and to long the bike was ride able and eerily calm but it was harder to turn and made my hands hurt.... I have been riding either 2011 Honzo (420 mm reach yuck) or a 2015 Trance (440 mm reach ) and 475mm was too much. With that said your hands will hurt more on hardtail especially until you get more active. The more active you get with pumping/jumping obstacles the less they will hurt. I suspect that once I have size M Nimble 9 that my hands will be fine riding most anything. One thing to note is if you buy a new N9 that the reach is 450 on M and 475 on L now. The seat tube is super short and I could easily fit a 180mm one up dropper on a size L with a 27 inch inseam, and 210 would probably be possible.

ill have my M built up on thursday or friday and I ll report back, but this was the longest bike I ever rode and it for sure hurt my hands more. With that said I would never do a hardtail as an only bike. Its not even necessarily technical trails that make me not want a hardtail, its faster chunky stuff that no amount of pumping could ever make right.

[Bushwacka]

Thought I'd posted my Waltly Ti SS in this thread, but it seems not, so here it is. When my Gen 1 Canfield N9 cracked, I contacted Waltly, gave them them the geometry I wanted reproduced, did a bit of back & forth on cable routing & gussets, then a couple months later I had a "custom" Ti frame for $900 shipped. Transferred everything over from the N9 (including the headbadge) and it was exactly 1 lb lighter complete. With the old skool 27.2 Moots layback post, Ti rails on the Gobi saddle, and a 15* x 800mm Oddity Cycles bar, it's a pretty comfy ride, and rips just like the Canfield. My alum. GG Smash gets more use, but the SS is my favorite.

You know whats comfy than a layback post? A dropper :P.

Seriously its 2020 no hardtail can be progressive if you cant get the seat post out of your way.

[El Chupacabra]

Okay hardcore hardtail heroes,

I am borrowing a friend's XL 2017 Nimble 9 for a few weeks, and his girlfriend is going to try out my M Riot. The N9 has 475mm reach (before possible over-fork and ~1.5 degree angleset), and my Riot has a 438mm reach (before 20mm over-fork). I'm 5'9, ape index around 0.

I really like how the N9 rides, except it's really hard on my hands. I thought it was going to take a beating to my ankles/knees in the rough stuff, but I find that my grip strength is my far my limiting factor. The meat of my thumbs get especially worked. I tried flattening the brake lever angle, and after the ride I moved the levers outboard a bit.

Are my hand woes intrinsic to riding a hardtail on chunky trails (e.g. vibrations being transmitted up the frame from the back wheel)? Or is the problem that I have a lot more weight on the bar, because the reach is much longer? Or maybe it's the bar/grip combo?

Isn't that bike simply too big for you?

[Toddball]

I always want to do this, also for apartment reasons. I never do because I don't like riding alone and my buddies are never going to ride hardtails. If you usually ride solo, I say go for it.

side note, I clicked on the link in your sig and "the park next to the Woodland Park Zoo" cracks me up.

Haha! We had more patience for content creation when King County was in the throes of stay-at-home. Maybe if it rains again there will be a return to quality long-form journalism.

I am 5'9 as well, with 27 inch inseam. Not sure what that is in Ape index.....

So I just tried a little costly experiment and at the last minute switch my order M N9 to a L N9. I can for sure say that the position of my hands was too high and to long the bike was ride able and eerily calm but it was harder to turn and made my hands hurt.... I have been riding either 2011 Honzo (420 mm reach yuck) or a 2015 Trance (440 mm reach ) and 475mm was too much. With that said your hands will hurt more on hardtail especially until you get more active. The more active you get with pumping/jumping obstacles the less they will hurt. I suspect that once I have size M Nimble 9 that my hands will be fine riding most anything. One thing to note is if you buy a new N9 that the reach is 450 on M and 475 on L now. The seat tube is super short and I could easily fit a 180mm one up dropper on a size L with a 27 inch inseam, and 210 would probably be possible.

I have a 32" inseam. The N9 I'm riding had 1" cut off the seat tube to allow for a longer dropper, which I think is a 170mm PNW Bachelor slammed to the collar. If It were my bike I would try to reduce max saddle height by 10mm. Interesting that the new N9s have significantly shorter seat tubes, that's a good move.

Isn't that bike simply too big for you?

Maybe. I do think my Riot (at somewhere between 430-440mm reach, considering geo adjustments) is too small, although that does help on tight trails and on jump lines that aren't enormous. The N9 feels much more stable and confidence-inspiring on steeper trails, and after a few more rides on it (with some fiddling-around of brake lever position) my hands are a little less brutalized. The long reach/steep SA does make seated pedaling on rolling terrain (new climb trail at Raging River, if you're in Western WA) feel weird.

I think I would buy a 450-475mm reach FS bike with a slightly lower standover. The new Commencal Meta TR looks pretty good in that regard.

[toast2266]

I don't think a 475 reach for a 5'9" person is necessarily too big, but I also think hardtails are sometimes a little more fun when they're sized down a little bit. Makes them more flickable and fun on jumps. Comes at the cost of high speed stability, but high speed stability isn't exactly the forte of hardtails anyways.

[Bushwacka]

Haha! We had more patience for content creation when King County was in the throes of stay-at-home. Maybe if it rains again there will be a return to quality long-form journalism.



I have a 32" inseam. The N9 I'm riding had 1" cut off the seat tube to allow for a longer dropper, which I think is a 170mm PNW Bachelor slammed to the collar. If It were my bike I would try to reduce max saddle height by 10mm. Interesting that the new N9s have significantly shorter seat tubes, that's a good move.



Maybe. I do think my Riot (at somewhere between 430-440mm reach, considering geo adjustments) is too small, although that does help on tight trails and on jump lines that aren't enormous. The N9 feels much more stable and confidence-inspiring on steeper trails, and after a few more rides on it (with some fiddling-around of brake lever position) my hands are a little less brutalized. The long reach/steep SA does make seated pedaling on rolling terrain (new climb trail at Raging River, if you're in Western WA) feel weird.

I think I would buy a 450-475mm reach FS bike with a slightly lower standover. The new Commencal Meta TR looks pretty good in that regard.

450 is basically size M and 475 is basically size large in most major brand with modern Geo. The M Nimble 9 coming to me is a 450mm reach(10mm longer than my Size L 2015 Trance) with an effective TT shorter than my current Trance. My trance has pretty good geo IMO except the seat tube.

this pretty much sums up my local riding, steep flowly loam, with tighter turns, and small drops and jumps.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CDHFS3Uj..._web_copy_link

Maybe I just do not need a "sled" for this riding, despite the sometimes 20+ degree pitches.