Fear and Loathing, a Rat Flu Odyssey

[iceman]

Is there any evidence that anyone, anywhere - a single person in the world - has caught the Covidz from a surface?

Has anyone heard of a case where live viable virus has been cultured from a sample collected from a surface in the wild? I'm aware that genetic material from the virus is routinely found on surfaces, and also that under laboratory conditions the virus has been shown to survive for varying periods of time, but that's not my question.

The only study I've heard of where they attempted to culture the virus from surface samples, done by the Bonn Institute of Virology, failed, and it seems they tried pretty hard to do it, including taking samples from group dwellings with multiple infected people present in the house. Are there other studies that either corroborate their findings or contradict them? I haven't heard of any, for what that's worth (not much).

I understand that the absence of a positive does not necessarily mean a negative, but my refusal to participate in what I see as the paranoid orgy of grocery-bag wiping is getting me labeled as a science denier and disease-enabling sociopath here.

[sb]

[old goat]

Seoul recloses bars after 1 guy infected 27 people
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/09/w...cond-wave.html
It seems that the great majority of cases come from large dense prolonged gatherings of people and then household spread --churches, bars, airplanes and airports, conventions, restaurants, workplaces, mardi gras
keep that stuff closed and what's left--small shops, parks, beaches, small private gatherings, not much else. Outdoor funerals are probably OK
I'm with Iceman on the wiping down groceries thing being excessive.

An antigen test would be an excellent way to open more stuff because of the speed, but unfortunately they are specific but not sensitive. You can't use a test with significant false negatives to screen people before something like dental work or getting on an airplane.
https://www.fda.gov/news-events/pres...n-virus-causes

[jono]

Is there any evidence that anyone, anywhere - a single person in the world - has caught the Covidz from a surface?

Has anyone heard of a case where live viable virus has been cultured from a sample collected from a surface in the wild? I'm aware that genetic material from the virus is routinely found on surfaces, and also that under laboratory conditions the virus has been shown to survive for varying periods of time, but that's not my question.

The only study I've heard of where they attempted to culture the virus from surface samples, done by the Bonn Institute of Virology, failed, and it seems they tried pretty hard to do it, including taking samples from group dwellings with multiple infected people present in the house. Are there other studies that either corroborate their findings or contradict them? I haven't heard of any, for what that's worth (not much).

I understand that the absence of a positive does not necessarily mean a negative, but my refusal to participate in what I see as the paranoid orgy of grocery-bag wiping is getting me labeled as a science denier and disease-enabling sociopath here.

Since you know the absence of a positive doesn't mean a negative, is there any extra value of not knowing "in the wild" examples? I can see where having one makes this simple, but if we don't have one outside a lab and yet we know there are millions of cases with no direct explanation, I would think the existence of a laboratory confirmed "viable" virus on a surface is good enough for present circumstances, no?

[ex-powderbroker]

Is there any evidence that anyone, anywhere - a single person in the world - has caught the Covidz from a surface?

Has anyone heard of a case where live viable virus has been cultured from a sample collected from a surface in the wild?

This caught my eye in early march:

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/covid-19-g...072953316.html

[The AD]

Seoul recloses bars after 1 guy infected 27 people

Demonstrates why contact tracing is so vitally important. If we had an effective way to quickly isolate people who have been exposed we'd be able to open things back up with much less risk. Otherwise it's a ticking time bomb.

[iceman]

we know there are millions of cases with no direct explanation

I don't believe we know that at all. Can you point to a case whose origin is unclear after rigorous contact tracing? I'm not aware of any. Obviously the lack of contact tracing and testing is a hudge factor in that lack of evidence, but if there is a case where extensive science-based contact tracing was tried and failed I have not heard of it.

[The AD]

Was that paste kinda off white or brownish with an applique stick on the middle? Never thought about eating it but remember that smell. The fresh smell of a poster art project.

That's how I remember it. Big tub of it with a wooden stick you used to apply it to whatever you were trying to paste.

[jono]

I don't believe we know that at all. Can you point to a case whose origin is unclear after rigorous contact tracing? I'm not aware of any. Obviously the lack of contact tracing and testing is a hudge factor in that lack of evidence, but if there is a case where extensive science-based contact tracing was tried and failed I have not heard of it.

Did I say "after rigorous contact tracing"? Of course not. We absolutely know there are millions that haven't been traced at all. And won't be. That's not proof of anything, it just means we know it's possible that there are such cases "in the wild."

The aforementioned lab example:

The scientists then investigated how long the virus remained infectious on these surfaces.

Always worth examining methods, though:

https://www.niaid.nih.gov/news-event...hours-surfaces

ETA: not disagreeing with you about paranoid disinfection, especially since paranoia can usually be appeased with zero effort by letting things sit for a while.

[funkendrenchman]

Llamas will save us...

https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/...d-19-1.5564528

https://www.cell.com/cell/pdf/S0092-...showall%3Dtrue

[Ski220]

I don't believe we know that at all. Can you point to a case whose origin is unclear after rigorous contact tracing? I'm not aware of any. Obviously the lack of contact tracing and testing is a hudge factor in that lack of evidence, but if there is a case where extensive science-based contact tracing was tried and failed I have not heard of it.

Korea.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...s-cases-emerge

It's still here (and there). But where did it come from (again)?

[Mofro261]

Is it possible is not the right question. Is it probable is a better way to look at it. Yeah for sure it's possible, but probability of getting it at a store from items bought is going to low to lower unless the store is associated with an outbreak of its employees.

I mean, wash your hands and fruit and veggies like normal you heathens. But no, not sweating getting the Covids off a package or box brought home either.

[Toadman]

Fauci to warn Senate of ‘needless suffering and death’
WASHINGTON — Dr. Anthony S. Fauci, the nation’s top infectious disease expert and a central figure in the government’s response to the coronavirus, plans to deliver a stark warning to the Senate on Tuesday: Americans would experience “needless suffering and death” if the country opens up prematurely.
https://www.seattletimes.com/nation-...ing-and-death/

Is it really "needless" if it is for the good of the Donald?

[riser4]

I don't believe we know that at all. Can you point to a case whose origin is unclear after rigorous contact tracing? I'm not aware of any. Obviously the lack of contact tracing and testing is a hudge factor in that lack of evidence, but if there is a case where extensive science-based contact tracing was tried and failed I have not heard of it.

If you want to wear jeans and lick doorknobs, go right ahead. However, you will be missed. I'd rather drink a G&T with you than in your memory.

[Ski220]

Is it possible is not the right question. Is it probable is a better way to look at it. Yeah for sure it's possible, but probability of getting it at a store from items bought is going to low to lower unless the store is associated with an outbreak of its employees.

I mean, wash your hands and fruit and veggies like normal you heathens. But no, not sweating getting the Covids off a package or box brought home either.

There have been a few cases in NYC where a person who had not ventured out, effectively shut in, and no other known contact other than delivered groceries brought in, had contracted covid-19 .

I'm either washing all packages down or if not perishable letting them sit in the bag in a separate room for at least 5 days.

Slightly paranoid? Maybe.

Maybe depends on where you live too.

[old goat]

Demonstrates why contact tracing is so vitally important. If we had an effective way to quickly isolate people who have been exposed we'd be able to open things back up with much less risk. Otherwise it's a ticking time bomb.

To me it means that it's too soon to open bars. Contact tracing may reduce the number of people secondarily infected but it would be better if those 27 weren't infected in the first place.

A day left in the bag should be enough for groceries.

[Cono Este]

There have been a few cases in NYC where a person who had not ventured out, effectively shut in, and no other known contact other than delivered groceries brought in, had contracted covid-19 .

I'm either washing all packages down or if not perishable letting them sit in the bag in a separate room for at least 5 days.

Slightly paranoid? Maybe.

Maybe depends on where you live too.

I wouldn’t have stayed in NYC anymore than I’d have stayed in Wuhan.


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[iceman]

If you want to wear jeans and lick doorknobs, go right ahead. However, you will be missed. I'd rather drink a G&T with you than in your memory.

Thank you and I'd like to have that drink. But I'm not advocating anything like that at all. All I am saying is that reasonable precautions are probably adequate and that OCD-laced paranoia might be a fun hobby but it's most likely a waste of time and energy. And negative for society. But at least here in this house, any pushback towards science-based rulemaking results in suggestions that I should burn my masks, make a sign and go picket the State House to free us. Which is not something I feel is warranted. To say the least.

[iceman]

There have been a few cases in NYC where a person who had not ventured out, effectively shut in, and no other known contact other than delivered groceries brought in, had contracted covid-19 .

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong per se, but the only cases like that that I've heard of have been in households where other members were going out in the world, particularly in multigenerational households. If there are others where that's not the case I'd like to hear about them.

[iceman]

Korea.

https://www.npr.org/sections/coronav...s-cases-emerge

It's still here (and there). But where did it come from (again)?

All those cases are in one housing complex. Clearly there is a point source there. Most likely one individual who came into contact elsewhere and brought it home with him. Give the story a couple more days and if there is a follow up story I bet that they will have identified the source. It hasn't been just lurking on a doorknob for weeks I'll tell you that much.

[jgb@etree]

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong per se, but the only cases like that that I've heard of have been in households where other members were going out in the world, particularly in multigenerational households. If there are others where that's not the case I'd like to hear about them.

I thought the stat out of NYC last sunday or the one before was that 66% of weekly admissions had been from people who have been isolated since the outset. I'm sure a decent percentage of those live with folks who are either "essential" or idiots like my wife, who - after spending 2 months staying inside - didn't see the problem with sitting in an enclosed porch for 9 hours with 10 women guzzling rose on Saturday without any sort of distancing, precautions, etc. Yet she wore an N95 mask and latex gloves to the grocery story the day before! Anyhow, my tangential rant about my crazy wife aside, that would still leave a fair number of folks who likely contracted it somehow even while staying in. With the vast majority of housing in NYC being multi-family, one has to wonder how HVAC, plumbing venting, common spaces, etc might play a role in airborne transmission.

I think wiping down the groceries is a bit extreme, but we did it for the first few weeks until it became pretty obvious that if we got it, it would really suck, but unless we just happen to have extremely bad luck - we'd survive without medical intervention. That said, it can't hurt if you're not sure, or would really, really rather be safe than sorry. I'm not sure you're what they refer to as a spring chicken any longer.

[Ottime]

^^^^There has been some suggestion that COVID can move through HVAC once an aerosol. That article by 'Erin X' showed a case study where air flow through a restaurant infected people at the same table, 3/4 of the folks at a down wind table and 30% at a table up wind - suggesting it gets caught up in an eddy and flows upwind. Folks at tables parallel weren't infected. HEPA filtration, OTOH, can capture it. Possibly.

I wouldn’t have stayed in NYC anymore than I’d have stayed in Wuhan.


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Some people have the privilege to get up and leave. Most don't. Lucky you.

[riser4]

Thank you and I'd like to have that drink. But I'm not advocating anything like that at all. All I am saying is that reasonable precautions are probably adequate and that OCD-laced paranoia might be a fun hobby but it's most likely a waste of time and energy. And negative for society. But at least here in this house, any pushback towards science-based rulemaking results in suggestions that I should burn my masks, make a sign and go picket the State House to free us. Which is not something I feel is warranted. To say the least.

I wipe the grocery cart handle and apply hand sanitizer a bunch. I don't wipe down my groceries but new dry goods go on a shelf in the basement if we don't need them right away. This is partially from necessity because we are trying to stay well stocked just in case we need it. I wear gloves when I pump my gas. I avoid public restrooms where I have to touch anything other than my junk and only go #1. I have not gone in places where I have to touch a door handle. So far this is easy because I am only going to the grocery store and I pay for gas at the pump. I am probably going to catch it and die.

[glademaster]

I wipe the grocery cart handle and apply hand sanitizer a bunch. I don't wipe down my groceries but new dry goods go on a shelf in the basement if we don't need them right away. This is partially from necessity because we are trying to stay well stocked just in case we need it. I wear gloves when I pump my gas. I avoid public restrooms where I have to touch anything other than my junk and only go #1. I have not gone in places where I have to touch a door handle. So far this is easy because I am only going to the grocery store and I pay for gas at the pump. I am probably going to catch it and die.

Did TGR decide that you caught it in Spain? You're good to go, man.

[riser4]

Did TGR decide that you caught it in Spain? You're good to go, man.

Ya, I still don't agree that that was the covids I caught. It was the Spanish Flu!