The 300g Touring Binding Thread

[jindustry]

I would appreciate some advice about the Black Diamond Helio 180/145 or ATK Trofeo / Trofeo Plus bindings. It seems like are a fair number of you with experience!

CHANGING RISER HEIGHT
Is it a pain in the ass to change heel riser height in the backcountry? Do you have to kneel to turn the heel by hand to go from flat to elevated heel, and do you do it often? Are there actually only 2 heel riser heights (flat + medium)? According to this chart, there are 3. https://skimo.co/binding-riser-heights.

A comment on wildsnow suggested that changing to "SLR Release" Heel Cover would give you another riser height. (https://www.atkbindings.com/en/prodo...se-heel-cover/) Is this true and worth considering?

FIXED U-PIN
Are fixed u-pins a big disadvantage? It seems like they increase wear on the pins and the heel fitting. Do you need to replace these parts periodically, and is it an issue? Is there any safety compromise with a u-pin binding?

INSTALLATION
Is it hard to find a shop with a jig for these bindings? Is it possible to DIY install the BD Helio 145 / ATK Trofeo with a paper template? It seems like this would be tough since no length adjustment means you need to drill holes exactly for the BSL. For that reason, it seems like the Helio 180 / Trofeo Plus seems easier for a DIY install.

SKI CRAMPONS
Do all the bindings come with a ski crampon attachment point?

RELEASE VALUE
The bindings ship with a set release value, but is it possible to change the lateral release of the heel somehow through disassmbly?

I'm advising my sister who is new to the backcountry on which binding to buy. The ATK Trofeo actually comes with a release value of 4 which may work for her since she is short, light, and not going to be charging big lines. I think she'd benefit from lighter gear. I just want to make sure this binding is not a pain for a newer, less efficient bc skier. If you have alternative suggestions, I'd love to hear them.

Thanks in advance!

[IanCH]

FIXED U-PIN
Are fixed u-pins a big disadvantage? It seems like they increase wear on the pins and the heel fitting. Do you need to replace these parts periodically, and is it an issue? Is there any safety compromise with a u-pin binding?

According to the bench testing at G3 yes a u-spring has different release values at every step in, and the change in release value can be unpredictable. (due to wear) - Regular replacement of heel plates or a roller pin u-spring can mitigate this issue.

Source: blister gear podcast

[ryan b]

I've got the trofeo+/180 on some light skis and just ordered a second pair for powder skis. They come with a crampon mount (145/non plus does not but you can buy one). Paper jig mounting was easy, make sure you mount the heel the right way forward ... picture on the BD site is the wrong way forward and impedes the flat mode due to the side notches being offset a bit.

Mostly I just ski them with the flap over the pins which gives a medium-low riser. You have to kneel down to twist to flat mode or to twist them all the way around to access the "high mode" which isn't much higher then the medium mode.

You can't really change the rv after purchase. You could change the U spring to change the upward release but not the sideways. Easiest thing to do would be to order a new pair of unadjustable torfeos in the new rv for cheap from europe and then swap the heel piece on the adjustment plate and sell the old heel / new toe. (Can't seem to buy just the heel anywhere).

This is my first U spring binding and i have limited time on them but the u springs and the heel fitting on all my boots are easy to replace.

Lack of a high riser and lack of ability to swap risers with a pole are the biggest downside. Not much of an issue for me as i'm usually setting my own skin track and using high ROM boots (f1s) but could be a pain for a newer tourer with less flexible boots or trying to follow a steep skin track. Dealing with leashes is kind of a pain for a new tourer too. Maybe look at the atk crest lightweight or haute route/bd 200 as well? If you're going to order new heel flaps the price isn't much different.

[CaliBrit]

According to the bench testing at G3 yes a u-spring has different release values at every step in, and the change in release value can be unpredictable. (due to wear) - Regular replacement of heel plates or a roller pin u-spring can mitigate this issue.

Source: blister gear podcast

I think G3 overstated the problem to the point of nonsense. High quality spring steel can do 1000’s of cycles. Pin wear should be monitored though.

[galibier_numero_un]

Lack of a high riser and lack of ability to swap risers with a pole are the biggest downside. Not much of an issue for me as i'm usually setting my own skin track and using high ROM boots (f1s) but could be a pain for a newer tourer with less flexible boots or trying to follow a steep skin track. Dealing with leashes is kind of a pain for a new tourer too. Maybe look at the atk crest lightweight or haute route/bd 200 as well? If you're going to order new heel flaps the price isn't much different.

Crest and Haute Route (Helio 200) also have a single heel flap: (a) over the pins in the "normal/pins forward" position and (b) slightly higher + flat when rotated 180 degrees.

I love my Helio 200s, but when the skin track is steeper than I'd prefer, my right achilles gets stressed out, even when the heel is rotated 180 degrees. That's been a problem foot since a climbing fall several years ago.

The riser thing has me pondering the R12 with it's double flippers.

The ATK site is chock full of info, but as with most products, you need to get a handle on their language. 3 riser modes means what we're discussing (Trofeo, Haute Route, Crest, etc.). 5 modes means a 2nd flipper (R12 & FR14) which is usable in the "normal" as well as 180 degree rotated position.

...Thom

[IanCH]

I think G3 overstated the problem to the point of nonsense. High quality spring steel can do 1000’s of cycles. Pin wear should be monitored though.

I think the issue is in the heel plate not the spring itself. The bearing tip u springs prevent heel piece wear.

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[I've seen black diamonds!]

I think G3 overstated the problem to the point of nonsense. High quality spring steel can do 1000’s of cycles. Pin wear should be monitored though.

This. It was G3's way of explaining why I should buy their bindings, even though I can think of no good reason to do so.

[ryan b]

Crest and Haute Route (Helio 200) also have a single heel flap: (a) over the pins in the "normal/pins forward" position and (b) slightly higher + flat when rotated 180 degrees.

I love my Helio 200s, but when the skin track is steeper than I'd prefer, my right achilles gets stressed out, even when the heel is rotated 180 degrees. That's been a problem foot since a climbing fall several years ago.

The riser thing has me pondering the R12 with it's double flippers.

The ATK site is chock full of info, but as with most products, you need to get a handle on their language. 3 riser modes means what we're discussing (Trofeo, Haute Route, Crest, etc.). 5 modes means a 2nd flipper (R12 & FR14) which is usable in the "normal" as well as 180 degree rotated position.

...Thom

The high riser on the trofeo is only 5 mm higher then the medium which is pretty much useless. For the haute route it is 13 according to https://skimo.co/binding-riser-heights

Someone should figure out an after market double flap riser.

[jindustry]

Thanks so much for your input, ryan b, CaliBrit , galibier_numero_un, IanCH, I've seen black diamonds!

Looking at the riser heights closer, I notice the "middle" of a Dynafit Speed Turn is quite a bit higher than the only riser position of the ATK Trofeo (BD Helio 145/180). In fact, the BD Helio 200 / ATK Haute Route "highest" position is about the same as "middle" for the Speed Turn. I'm looking at the delta column. I wonder if it's possible to reverse that riser lever, so you could get 5mm more rise in the "normal" flip position. It seems like a dual flippers would be ideal. https://skimo.co/binding-riser-heights

I'd like to find a binding that goes as low as a 4 release value for my sister, so that limits the choices. It seems like ATK Trofeo (plus) and Dynafit Speed Turn are 2 candidates. The Speed Turn weighs twice as much but has more riser options and you don't have to turn the heel by hand. I guess I'll have to weigh the tradeoffs. Thanks again, guys.

[galibier_numero_un]

The high riser on the trofeo is only 5 mm higher then the medium which is pretty much useless. For the haute route it is 13 according to https://skimo.co/binding-riser-heights

Someone should figure out an after market double flap riser.

Agreed. When anyone asks me about the two "different" riser positions, I reply "medium an medium plus". I've taken to rotating 180 at the start of a tour so I have the flat optio when necessary.

A dual riser option is the only thing that keeps my Helio 200 from being the ideal binding for me and my tight, right Achilles.

BTW, I like Skimo's stated riser measuring methodology (toe pin to bottom of boot heel delta), but if you verify it using your own measurements, you'll find they're way off.

... Thom

[CaliBrit]

I think the issue is in the heel plate not the spring itself. The bearing tip u springs prevent heel piece wear.

Sent from my SM-N975U using Tapatalk

Yeah but that doesn’t change in a few clip ins which was their claims....

[JoeyFish]

Thanks so much for your input, ryan b, CaliBrit , galibier_numero_un, IanCH, I've seen black diamonds!

Looking at the riser heights closer, I notice the "middle" of a Dynafit Speed Turn is quite a bit higher than the only riser position of the ATK Trofeo (BD Helio 145/180). In fact, the BD Helio 200 / ATK Haute Route "highest" position is about the same as "middle" for the Speed Turn. I'm looking at the delta column. I wonder if it's possible to reverse that riser lever, so you could get 5mm more rise in the "normal" flip position. It seems like a dual flippers would be ideal. https://skimo.co/binding-riser-heights

I'd like to find a binding that goes as low as a 4 release value for my sister, so that limits the choices. It seems like ATK Trofeo (plus) and Dynafit Speed Turn are 2 candidates. The Speed Turn weighs twice as much but has more riser options and you don't have to turn the heel by hand. I guess I'll have to weigh the tradeoffs. Thanks again, guys.

Why not look at the ATK Crest 8? Goes down to 3...

Same risers as the Helio 200. Crest weighs 280g with brakes (you can remove them).

[rod9301]

Why don't you guys buy the Salomon mtn and be done?

No need to turn the bindings, high rise, bomber.

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[CaliBrit]

Why don't you guys buy the Salomon mtn and be done?

No need to turn the bindings, high rise, bomber.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

Never realized that, pretty neat. But how flat is the flat mode?

[rod9301]

Never realized that, pretty neat. But how flat is the flat mode?

Flat enough that i don't feel the ramp at all, even on totally flat approaches.

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[HukuTa_KydecHuk]

I always thought that Salomon MTN was not so popular due to U-spring

[JoeyFish]

Why didn't I choose it?

ATK Crest is cheaper, lighter, more reliable, and not a U Spring.

Jindustry was looking for a binding that went down to 4 DIN, the lightest spring for the MTN binding is approx 6...

[3PinGrin]

Why didn't I choose it?

ATK Crest is cheaper, lighter, more reliable, and not a U Spring.

Jindustry was looking for a binding that went down to 4 DIN, the lightest spring for the MTN binding is approx 6...

Curious what are you basing the more reliable comment on?

[nyskirat]

Why don't you guys buy the Salomon mtn and be done?

No need to turn the bindings, high rise, bomber.

Sent from my Redmi Note 8 Pro using Tapatalk

Did you do anything about the ramp angle?

[rod9301]

Did you do anything about the ramp angle?

No, it doesn't have an excessive ramp, not like dynafit or g3 ions, of which i had a few.

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[Falcon3]

Just wanted to throw in my experience on my ATK Crest 10. I fucking love these binders. Rear release is set to 8 and after skiing a long day last week, I never had any release issues including some pillow drops, off camber landings, and weird icy patches. However, they did release as expected on a chunky downhill skin track where I got caught in the luge run.

Downhill they’re super solid, I’m also very happy with the ramp angle and the risers. Most skin tracks, the riser over pins (medium) is perfect. For steeper skin tracks, the high riser just requires you flip the tower 180 degrees, which takes about 3 seconds per ski to bend down and turn it, usually while other folks are still fiddling with the flippy risers on their dynafits.

[jindustry]

Why didn't I choose it?

ATK Crest is cheaper, lighter, more reliable, and not a U Spring.

Jindustry was looking for a binding that went down to 4 DIN, the lightest spring for the MTN binding is approx 6...

Thanks, JoeyFish for the suggestion of the ATK Crest 8! Falcon3, thanks for your feedback on the Crest Binding.

ATK's has inconvenietly named the binding after it's highest release value, and I didn't realize they made an adjustable binding that went as low as release value 3. I wasn't really looking for the added weight and complexity of a heel spring / "elastic response system", but it's weight is low, especially considering the features, so it looks like a good choice for a very light skier!

[CaliBrit]

Just wanted to throw in my experience on my ATK Crest 10. I fucking love these binders. Rear release is set to 8 and after skiing a long day last week, I never had any release issues including some pillow drops, off camber landings, and weird icy patches. However, they did release as expected on a chunky downhill skin track where I got caught in the luge run.

Downhill they’re super solid, I’m also very happy with the ramp angle and the risers. Most skin tracks, the riser over pins (medium) is perfect. For steeper skin tracks, the high riser just requires you flip the tower 180 degrees, which takes about 3 seconds per ski to bend down and turn it, usually while other folks are still fiddling with the flippy risers on their dynafits.

Tempted by these as I’m finding the marker alpinist a little flat.

[kid-kapow]

I had a full day out on ATK FR14s today (resort riding to get to know the skis - Rustler10s - and bindings). I must mirror what has been stated previously - ATK FR14s ski really solidly with excellent power transfer. The toes are about as smooth as a leopard giving a facial (to quote the late and grat Robin Williams), though that kinda comes with the territory I guess.

I also found out the hard way that they release smoothly in the event of a fall. I had the slam of the season today, and the right ski (that I manged to put square into / got caught in a depression/hole in a high speed, icy section) released smoothly and frankly impressively well. I was going down regardless due to being thrown off balance / rotated by the right foot getting somewhat hung up, so I am very happy that the ski released like it did.

I am very happy with them so far. Noticeably easier to step into than Salomon's excellent MTN bindings, and those are pretty easy to get into as well.

I have not gone uphill with them so far, but I expect them to that brilliantly like all tech binders.

Recommended, though MTN/Backlands are excellent too at a much lower price.

[frorider]

Getting more and more miles on my alpinist 12s, and I think over time I’m going to migrate most of AT quiver to Alpinists. Yesterday for shiggles I took my Praxis 9D8 / F1 setup to a resort and not only had no prereleases at speed on refrozen shitfuck, but in general there was a smoothness not normally associated with tech bindings other than my Vipecs or similar. Outdoor Gear Lab and Blister both emphasized this. $260 price tag makes buying 3 pairs conceivable for a quiver update. That U spring is $9 in yurp, so no biggie if I replace every 2-3 yrs.

The Tall riser setting is more Medium Plus, but that doesn’t seem an issue with my F1s on any steep Tahoe skin track. It is an occasional issue with my Maestrales but those boots now only get used with my vipecs and kingpins so no a big deal.