Ikon Pass

[Toadman]

I look at it like the boiling frog analogy. The corporate over lords will slowly and steadily jack the prices up. You won't really notice it much at first. Then one day you will look back and comment that you used to get the Vail/Ikon/MC passes for $650-$800. Now you are paying $2k, but hey, at least you aren't paying $250 for a walk up pass at the window! But by then the boomers will be dead or so broken and busted with artificial hips/shoulders/knees etc. that they no longer ski, and just maybe the slopes won't be as crowded?

But I hear there won't be winter in 20 years, so there's that...

[mcski]

I've heard plenty of old time Squaw loyalists say they wish for a return to $1800 (or whatever they were) season pass prices. Would that line still look like that then?

Count me on that list. I bitched for years about Alex keeping his pass prices high and not shifting the model to lower cost passes. I eat my words everytime I see the KT line on a Pow day. Skiing has always been an elitist sport, but the “cheap” passes have made it even worse. There are lots of people that want to go skiing on whim that don’t now because of day ticket prices or show up, get surprised and never come back. Very few non regulars realize how much Squaw charges per day now. If my family didn’t already ski, I doubt I’d get them started now and I have discouraged a couple of friends because of the cost already

[Gman]

Anyone know if these passes are going back on sale?

I’m going West for work in March-ish and want to go skiing as well.

they are done for the season.

[Kinnikinnick]

Ikon raised day ticket prices???

LOL

What a slew of dolts.


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[Shaaarrrp]

There are lots of people that want to go skiing on whim that don’t now because of day ticket prices or show up, get surprised and never come back. Very few non regulars realize how much Squaw charges per day now. If my family didn’t already ski, I doubt I’d get them started now and I have discouraged a couple of friends because of the cost already

Not going to lie...finding out how largely useless the ski with a friend Ikon tickets are has also left a bad taste in my mouth. Since they only gave us 8 of them a year, I figured they'd be worth a decent discount but it's really only useful for day of walkups that will actually ski all day. The price I get for a friend isn't even any cheaper than what they can get buying the tickets 10 days in advance. Dropping $160+ for relatively casual skier friend to go skiing for 3-4 hours can leave you a little salty.

[AdironRider]

Your whole argument just contradicted the last part.

The Ikon pass et al allow people to ski at their local hill AND ski other destinations while limiting the lift ticket end of the high expense of skiing.

We went to Aspen for 4 days / 3 nights. Spent $700 on lodging and nothing on tickets.

Otherwise it’d be 4 x 4 x 150 = $2400 + lodging.

Ikon is doing the exact opposite of your self contradicted argument that it’s mating skiing expensive.


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And your argument requires a family of 4 to put out at least 2600 bucks on passes.

You literally just illustrated his point. Your trip to Aspen still required a minimum spend of 3300 bucks (think cash flow), and you haven't even fed yourself.

That is not cheap.

[Kinnikinnick]

And your argument requires a family of 4 to put out at least 2600 bucks on passes.

You literally just illustrated his point. Your trip to Aspen still required a minimum spend of 3300 bucks (think cash flow), and you haven't even fed yourself.

That is not cheap.

But it’s a fuckload cheaper than daytickets Einstein.

If get 40 days in then my cost/day is $15

If you get 40 days at $150 that’s $6000

A fucking order of magnitude higher.

If you want to bitch about high ticket and other costs as barrier to entry into skiing, then go for it. But it has 0 to do with the Ikon.


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[boardtodeath]

But it’s a fuckload cheaper than daytickets Einstein.

If get 40 days in then my cost/day is $15

If you get 40 days at $150 that’s $6000

A fucking order of magnitude higher.

If you want to bitch about high ticket and other costs as barrier to entry into skiing, then go for it. But it has 0 to do with the Ikon.


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TWO orders of magnitude actually

[AdironRider]

What beginner skis 40 days?

The average person who "skis" isn't buying a pass and isn't skiing more than a handful of times. They are increasing day ticket rates to compensate for giving away the farm on passes. It is turning away the casual skier, beginners, and families that aren't wealthy. At some point that chicken is going to come home to roost and it is a direct result of Ikon. There is a breakeven number per skier day a resort needs to make, and when Ikon gives away the season pass farm, it needs to be made up elsewhere. That elsewhere is day tickets, rentals, ski school etc and completely drives away everyone but a pass holder.

Question, how did you start skiing? I bet you didn't buy a pass, and I bet you didn't go to fucking Vail on day 1, and I bet you rented equipment. Ikon is killing independents, and is killing any sense of affordability for the lifeblood of the sport, aka never evers.

[Shaaarrrp]

But it’s a fuckload cheaper than daytickets Einstein.

If get 40 days in then my cost/day is $15

If you get 40 days at $150 that’s $6000

A fucking order of magnitude higher.

If you want to bitch about high ticket and other costs as barrier to entry into skiing, then go for it. But it has 0 to do with the Ikon.


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This only seems like a fair comparison if you live in a vacuum, where the decision to buy a daily lift ticket or an Ikon pass can be made at a similar moment in time. For the majority of casual skiers who are unwilling to commit $600 (and this is the lowest price available) almost a year in advance of a vacation, it certainly raises the daily cost of lift tickets for them.

Personally I love empty mountains but I do get a little scared that a sport I love so much finds it so hard to attract new people because of the price and seems to be actively making it harder and harder to lure new participants.

[Bunion 2020]

What beginner skis 40 days?

The average person who "skis" isn't buying a pass and isn't skiing more than a handful of times. They are increasing day ticket rates to compensate for giving away the farm on passes. It is turning away the casual skier, beginners, and families that aren't wealthy. At some point that chicken is going to come home to roost and it is a direct result of Ikon. There is a breakeven number per skier day a resort needs to make, and when Ikon gives away the season pass farm, it needs to be made up elsewhere. That elsewhere is day tickets, rentals, ski school etc and completely drives away everyone but a pass holder.

Question, how did you start skiing? I bet you didn't buy a pass, and I bet you didn't go to fucking Vail on day 1, and I bet you rented equipment. Ikon is killing independents, and is killing any sense of affordability for the lifeblood of the sport, aka never evers.

All very true. Basically it is a cannibalization of the future.

[boardtodeath]

As a local single mountain passholder, it's clear that Ikon and Epic ARE killing the casual skiier and yeah, it's really bad for the sport in the long run.

That said, if I was an east coast skiier, yeah I'd buy one, because they are fucking giving it away ​pretty much.

[Kinnikinnick]

Provide evidence that the high price of daily lift tickets has anything to do with Ikon passes.

Go ahead, please

But you won’t because tryout just reaching in the dark for something, ANYTHING, to blame on Ikon.


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[Shaaarrrp]

Provide evidence that the high price of daily lift tickets has anything to do with Ikon passes.

Go ahead, please

But you won’t because tryout just reaching in the dark for something, ANYTHING, to blame on Ikon.


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Vail bought KW 8 years ago. Season passes are up 65%. Day tickets are up 80%. Ski lessons are up 110%. Food is up 75%. Pretty sure we have not seen inflation like that in any other sector.


KW used to offer a first time beginner package of beginner lift, rentals and all day lesson for $60. And they had a pass and/or day ticket for the lower mountain lifts that was discounted as well. They also offered 5 and 10 packs of lessons at a discount. Those are all gone.

Absent Alterra or Vail explicitly stating that they have increased all these prices specifically because of the passes, is there anything you would actually consider "evidence?"

Fwiw, I am definitely not someone who looks for reasons to hate on the Ikon or Epic Pass. I've enjoyed both of them through the years and appreciate what I get to ski for what I pay. I would not be able to afford the places I've gone without them. That said, I almost always ski solo and have noticed the prices for casual skiers and how they've made it harder and harder to lure them.

Maybe all these resorts are just greedy or standard operating costs have naturally risen to warrant the staggering increases but I have my doubts.

[ncskier]

As a local single mountain passholder, it's clear that Ikon and Epic ARE killing the casual skiier and yeah, it's really bad for the sport in the long run.

That said, if I was an east coast skiier, yeah I'd buy one, because they are fucking giving it away ​pretty much.

So on this thread people are simultaneously arguing that the Ikon/Epic is both killing the sport of skiing all while making their mountains too crowded. Non of this computes to me. It can't be both.
All the threads about crystal, squaw, Solitude, Big Sky are all bitching about how they are too crowded. BCC/LCC traffic, crystal closing day tickets sales etc.
After decades of doom and gloom about the age of skiers increasing and the implosion of the baby boom generation, I see nothing but crowded pay lots, long lines and etc. I'd say for now, it's injecting more money into the mountains.

[AdironRider]

I think most of us are saying that the majors are enjoying short term gains now it is ultimately going to cost them a lot more revenue in the future. The independents and affordability dying off is just the canary in the coal mine.

[Kinnikinnick]

Vail is Ikon?

No.

D- on your report.


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[ncskier]

I think most of us are saying that while mountains are enjoying short term gains now it is ultimately going to cost them a lot more revenue in the future.

Climate change, aging americans and poorer middle class are the future. They are getting it while the getting is good. Ski areas as a business are doing great even compared to 5 years ago. No offense to anyone on this enthusiast board, but the areas don't care about your "core" lifestyle. They want to pump people through the SLC airport into the 1000's of condos at PC and Deer Valley and LCC weekly. From my point of view they are doing it and doing it well. I can't fault them for that really. Is the 'spirit" dead at a lot of places, probably. However, I still have access to a reasonable pass, plentiful gear etc. 10 years ago, all I heard was boomers were dying and condos would flood the market and mountains would be empty.

[Kinnikinnick]

So on this thread people are simultaneously arguing that the Ikon/Epic is both killing the sport of skiing all while making their mountains too crowded. Non of this computes to me. It can't be both.
All the threads about crystal, squaw, Solitude, Big Sky are all bitching about how they are too crowded. BCC/LCC traffic, crystal closing day tickets sales etc.
After decades of doom and gloom about the age of skiers increasing and the implosion of the baby boom generation, I see nothing but crowded pay lots, long lines and etc. I'd say for now, it's injecting more money into the mountains.

Bitches want to bitch. Whether there is any sense to it or not.

It is doing both at the same time. It’s making skiing too affordable and driving huge crowds and it’s causing too few new skiers.

Pretty soon we’ll all have to hike for our turns because the whole model is collapsing!!!!


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[Shaaarrrp]

After decades of doom and gloom about the age of skiers increasing and the implosion of the baby boom generation, I see nothing but crowded pay lots, long lines and etc. I'd say for now, it's injecting more money into the mountains.

I see what you're saying...I do wonder about the shutdowns/prices of smaller mountains and how much it contributes to the overall lessening of the sport. The megaresorts may actually be more crowded but it doesn't necessarily mean the overall numbers aren't down. Maybe the small mtns aren't worth protecting as much as many people seem to think but I do believe they can be quite valuable for getting new skiers hooked.

Fwiw, I've yet to hear any numbers based argument put forth that the amount of skiers isn't decreasing. If more money is coming into the mountains, I thought it was pretty accepted that it mostly coming from well established skiers/boomers who were drawn into the sport before it got so expensive.

[boardtodeath]

The biggest personal effect I've seen (aside from solitude going from relatively chill to "you'd better not even try to drive up BCC" after they went ikon unlimited) is that my friends from back east either buy an Ikon or an Epic. The casuals buy the Epic and I will never fucking ever be able to convince them to come ski Jackson or the Bird, because why would they? It would cost them close to what they pay for their entire Epic pass. Likewise, I won't ever ski telluride again, because it's simply too expensive and I'd rather go to wolf creek or something - but my friends with Epic passes will only ever ski epic mountains.

The hardcore folks just buy an Ikon and come ski the good mountains, which is cool, but growing up there was never any sort of segregation like that - you'd agree on where to go and everyone would buy a lift ticket, or usually a 3 of 4 days ticket. We'd generally buy them at the window even, though I realize you can still do that online.

I work near Ogden, and I work with a lot of people who used to regularly ski 10-15 times a year with day passes. None of them ski at all anymore. Even one of my coworkers who lives IN kimball junction has stated he's done skiing for good because "park city is filled with tourists on epic passes" and I guess he's too much of a puss to come ski LCC. I have plenty of people I grew up with skiing back east who have flat out told me "I skied when I was younger, but it's not worth it to me to buy a pass and it's too expensive for day tickets, so fuck it."

That scares me for the long term viability of the sport, even though yeah - right now, it's driving record crowds to resorts. But casuals are being turned off. And for those Epic passholders, I see very little "gnar mobility" if you will - I see almost no chance of taking someone who hits keystone and breck and improving their skills by forcing them to send it at steeper, more technical resorts. And that's a shame.

[Bunion 2020]

Climate change, aging americans and poorer middle class are the future. They are getting it while the getting is good. Ski areas as a business are doing great even compared to 5 years ago. No offense to anyone on this enthusiast board, but the areas don't care about your "core" lifestyle. They want to pump people through the SLC airport into the 1000's of condos at PC and Deer Valley and LCC weekly. From my point of view they are doing it and doing it well. I can't fault them for that really. Is the 'spirit" dead at a lot of places, probably. However, I still have access to a reasonable pass, plentiful gear etc. 10 years ago, all I heard was boomers were dying and condos would flood the market and mountains would be empty.

Give it time and all that will come to pass.

I ski patrolled professionally for 30+ years. It was the Golden Age for that lifestyle. That is life dead and gone now. Same with most of the other "ski bum" jobs and lifestyles. No one can afford to do it anymore and it is no surprise that the bulk of the mountain workers at my area are on Visa's from other countries. Has nothing to do with IKON, that is just a symptom.

Is that bad? I have no idea. It is sad.

[mcski]

TWO orders of magnitude actually

You morons don’t know what magnitude means.

[Benny Profane]

Let's not dis the Boomers so much, even though we deserve it. I'd say chances are yo mama is a Boomer.

And, don't forget Europe. It can actually be a more affordable alternative if prices jack too high.

[EWG]

You morons don’t know what magnitude means.

I was gonna bring that up, but then I decided that this thread was clearly not the place for accurate maths.