What's the number?

[Benny Profane]

This is for group specific funds not traded on the open market. If I wanted to invest in a publicly open fund offered by Fidelity I would pay the same expense ratio other Fidelity customers pay.

I'm pretty sure what you're talking about doesn't exist. Who are you "trading" with? If something isn't traded on the "open market", then you aren't invested in stocks or bonds. Maybe private equity and shares of companies that aren't public yet, like tech unicorns, but that's for really rich people.

[Benny Profane]

No one pays 5-6 percent in a 401k. Sometimes you are so full of shit Benny.

Again, you'd really be surprised. Maybe 5-6 is exaggerating, but, let's just say, all told, you're being raped by a lot of these 401k management companies, and you have no choice in the matter. It's a nice set up for them, much like the cable biz model. Negotiate for a monopoly contract (your town, your company), and pretend youre getting a lot of choice at a fair, competitive price. No.

If you're getting a good match, well, cool, I guess. If no to very little match, sucks.
Remember, the 401k is sort of a scam thought up as a tax dodge for corporate and even small biz higher ups. They're inviting you to the party just to lube the works.

[4matic]

I'm pretty sure what you're talking about doesn't exist. Who are you "trading" with? If something isn't traded on the "open market", then you aren't invested in stocks or bonds. Maybe private equity and shares of companies that aren't public yet, like tech unicorns, but that's for really rich people.

They’re called institutional trusts. Babbling dufus

[AdironRider]

Again, you'd really be surprised. Maybe 5-6 is exaggerating, but, let's just say, all told, you're being raped by a lot of these 401k management companies, and you have no choice in the matter. It's a nice set up for them, much like the cable biz model. Negotiate for a monopoly contract (your town, your company), and pretend youre getting a lot of choice at a fair, competitive price. No.

If you're getting a good match, well, cool, I guess. If no to very little match, sucks.
Remember, the 401k is sort of a scam thought up as a tax dodge for corporate and even small biz higher ups. They're inviting you to the party just to lube the works.

The average fee across all 401k plans nationwide is .45 percent according to Morningstar. While not free, nowhere near what you are talking about and IMO relatively fair for basically zero effort on your end.

You 100 percent have choice in the matter also and can choose to invest or not invest your money in the plan or elsewhere like say stocks, which aren’t tax advantaged, require research on your end, etc. for the average investor, a 401 isn’t terrible, the hard part is staying disciplined but that exists with every investment.

I would personally take a 401 over a pension, because as a lot of people can tell you, most of those plans are built on promises of a number on paper that isn’t achievable. State of Wyoming hasn’t issued a COL increase in 12 years for example.

[Benny Profane]

Better to have both 401k and pension, especially if you're getting a match in the former. But, like I said, you have no real choice in the matter.
I transferred out of 401ks into a Vanguard IRA as soon as I could. Hate Fidelity. Always trying to grab 1% here, 1% there, mostly horrible funds, little choice. The IRA has lowest costs around, a world of investment choices. Hell, you can buy RE and even gold if you want, but, I won't.

Discipline is easy filling a savings plan. Payroll or checking account deduction, on automatic.

[Benny Profane]

They’re called institutional trusts. Babbling dufus

Ok, Mr. Financial Genius, you Google well. Now, explain to us how something that doesn't trade on the open markets makes money. Fuck if I'm googling that.

[rod9301]

No one pays 5-6 percent in a 401k. Sometimes you are so full of shit Benny.

Teachers retirement funds do. 529 do. 401k post a lot more then 0

Sent from my Armor_3 using Tapatalk

[El Chupacabra]

401k companies charge a fee to the individual investor/employee, which varies depending on which fund you choose to invest in. They also charge a management fee to the employer, which AFAIK can be a percentage of assets held or can be a flat rate. I don't know how high that gets (ie if it can get to Benny's 5-6%), but it's not zero.

[Benny Profane]

Porches are expensive.

[Danno]

Porches are expensive.

That's why I prefer patios.

[Benny Profane]

Ah, shit. You know what I mean.

[GeezerSteve]

The average fee across all 401k plans nationwide is .45 percent according to Morningstar.

I have read that and believe it IF it's an average of all plans and the denominator is total asset base. Very large plans can negotiate for good fee rates. But small plans do not have that kind of power, and sometimes pay 3% or more in total fees and other expenses (collectively, the "skim"). 15+ years ago I was in a fee-heavy plan set up by one of my former partners. After that firm broke up, I rolled my share into an IRA and formed a SEP-IRA for contributions moving forward. I do not miss getting hit with the skim.

[4matic]

Ok, Mr. Financial Genius, you Google well. Now, explain to us how something that doesn't trade on the open markets makes money. Fuck if I'm googling that.

Google "confused blowhard"

An institutional trust is a trust fund invested in specified securities like, or exactly like, a corresponding mutual fund but has no ticker symbol or in some cases a daily NAV; it will only indicate a portfolio value and dividends are re-invested transparently.

Here's an example:

https://institutional.vanguard.com/w...ails/fund/1984

Vanguard Institutional Total Bond Market Index Trust is not a mutual fund. It is a collective trust available only to tax-qualified plans and their eligible participants. Investment objectives, risks, charges, expenses, and other important information should be considered carefully before investing. The collective trust is managed by Vanguard Fiduciary Trust Company, a wholly owned subsidiary of The Vanguard Group, Inc.

Annual fund operating expenses
Expenses that you pay each year as a percentage of the value of your investment.

Expense ratio 0%
12b-1 distribution 0%

[sb]

Patios can be expensive too.

[AdironRider]

Better to have both 401k and pension, especially if you're getting a match in the former. But, like I said, you have no real choice in the matter.
I transferred out of 401ks into a Vanguard IRA as soon as I could. Hate Fidelity. Always trying to grab 1% here, 1% there, mostly horrible funds, little choice. The IRA has lowest costs around, a world of investment choices. Hell, you can buy RE and even gold if you want, but, I won't.

Discipline is easy filling a savings plan. Payroll or checking account deduction, on automatic.

Yeah a 401 and a pension would be great no doubt and I like Vanguard as well. The discipline part is still tough for most though. It’s just as easy to stop making those automatic deductions, or not deduct enough over the long term.

Teachers retirement funds do. 529 do. 401k post a lot more then 0

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5-6 percent is over double the inflation rate. There is no fucking way they are getting that much. No one would, or should, invest in them if they were.

I have read that and believe it IF it's an average of all plans and the denominator is total asset base. Very large plans can negotiate for good fee rates. But small plans do not have that kind of power, and sometimes pay 3% or more in total fees and other expenses (collectively, the "skim"). 15+ years ago I was in a fee-heavy plan set up by one of my former partners. After that firm broke up, I rolled my share into an IRA and formed a SEP-IRA for contributions moving forward. I do not miss getting hit with the skim.

No doubt the small guys have higher fees.I think the new secure act has some provisions allowing smaller companies to band together now and utilize better volume for better rates.

[Dantheman]

Maxed out my 401k and HSA this year. Still a looong way from my number, but feeling better that I won't be eating cat food in old age.

[skaredshtles]

<snip>
5-6 percent is over double the inflation rate. There is no fucking way they are getting that much. No one would, or should, invest in them if they were.

Yup. I just checked my 529 - and if they're charging anything more than 0.34%, I can't find evidence of it...

[Core Shot]

Switched my 401k a few years ago to slightly higher fee.
It’s worth it to get help with record keeping, notice requirements and filing form 5500

Still nowhere near the 5% alleged. More like a half percent.
Individual funds can have additional fees, but that’s on the dumbass that can’t read the prospectus

[The AD]

Better to have both 401k and pension, especially if you're getting a match in the former.

I've got both, but my company has now stopped contributing to the pension plan. In exchange for this they're kicking in more of a match toward the 401k. I feel like I'm in good shape. Not quite 50 with probably a million in my pension, over a million in 401k. My wife has around $200k in her retirement fund. I live in Seattle, so have a house that's worth a lot right now and will be paid off in a few years. My goal is to retire right around 55. We'll see. Seems like if $2.5MM is the number I'm not too far off.

[dan_pdx]

I've got both, but my company has now stopped contributing to the pension plan. In exchange for this they're kicking in more of a match toward the 401k. I feel like I'm in good shape. Not quite 50 with probably a million in my pension, over a million in 401k. My wife has around $200k in her retirement fund. I live in Seattle, so have a house that's worth a lot right now and will be paid off in a few years. My goal is to retire right around 55. We'll see. Seems like if $2.5MM is the number I'm not too far off.

As a random Internet commenter, I'd just like to state that $2.5 MM is my number. If you want to know your number, it'll cost you 5%

[skaredshtles]

I've got both, but my company has now stopped contributing to the pension plan. In exchange for this they're kicking in more of a match toward the 401k. I feel like I'm in good shape. Not quite 50 with probably a million in my pension, over a million in 401k. My wife has around $200k in her retirement fund. I live in Seattle, so have a house that's worth a lot right now and will be paid off in a few years. My goal is to retire right around 55. We'll see. Seems like if $2.5MM is the number I'm not too far off.

[GeezerSteve]

I live in Seattle, so have a house that's worth a lot right now and will be paid off in a few years. My goal is to retire right around 55. We'll see. Seems like if $2.5MM is the number I'm not too far off.

You are on track. Good work. Do you plan to stay in Seattle for retirement? Although we moved E of the Cascades for other reasons, the lower cost of living helps things pencil out. Staying in Seattle would have required us to work a few more years.

IME, "the number" threads too often fail to mention or play down the expense side of the ledger and SS strategy. For a couple in good health who can afford it (sounds like you can), it makes manifest sense to hedge against one or both growing past your projected life expectancy by waiting for the older spouse to take SS at age 70.

[Benny Profane]

Google "confused blowhard"

An institutional trust is a trust fund invested in specified securities like, or exactly like, a corresponding mutual fund but has no ticker symbol or in some cases a daily NAV; it will only indicate a portfolio value and dividends are re-invested transparently.

Here's an example:

https://institutional.vanguard.com/w...ails/fund/1984

Vanguard Institutional Total Bond Market Index Trust is not a mutual fund. It is a collective trust available only to tax-qualified plans and their eligible participants. Investment objectives, risks, charges, expenses, and other important information should be considered carefully before investing. The collective trust is managed by Vanguard Fiduciary Trust Company, a wholly owned subsidiary of The Vanguard Group, Inc.

Annual fund operating expenses
Expenses that you pay each year as a percentage of the value of your investment.

Expense ratio 0%
12b-1 distribution 0%

So, .... English, motherfucker. Anybody here could have googled and copied and pasted that. First, explain what it is in English, and, second, how is it not trading in public markets?

[JimmyCarter]

So, .... English, motherfucker. Anybody here could have googled and copied and pasted that. First, explain what it is in English, and, second, how is it not trading in public markets?

It's the exact same principal as a mutual fund, only the fund itself isn't traded. Just like a public fund, it still invests in securities that are traded in public markets.

It's just a private fund vehicle. No different than a private vs public company really.

[The AD]

You are on track. Good work. Do you plan to stay in Seattle for retirement? Although we moved E of the Cascades for other reasons, the lower cost of living helps things pencil out. Staying in Seattle would have required us to work a few more years.

Probably not. Whether we'll move somewhere cheaper is the big question.