Paging Hutash... damnit

[DJSapp]

Hey Hutash and other vet mags.

I think I know the answers here, but I figured we'd get a second opinion. 12.5 yo female black lab/mix. She had hip displasia surgery on both hips in her youth, but it was identified that she had signs of arthritis in her right front leg even back then. Fish oil and salmon chow from then on and kept her weight and activity balanced. Fast forward 10 years and she's on carprofen and gabapentin else because she won't stop licking her front right leg. She now lives in the cone of shame to keep her from licking her leg to the point of bleeding and infection. Just in the past two weeks she started getting defensive and growling over her food and eating less and less. The last 2.5 days she has just flat out stopped eating, will only stand or lay near it and growl until we eventually take it away. She'll still eat treats to a point. There's an obvious loss of weight and drop in activity. The Mrs. reported something red in her stool yesterday. Not dark red, but a normal red color. She's going to the vet today for their $0.02.

The optimist in me hopes that this is due to pain and some changes to medication can bring her back and give her a bit more time, but 12.5 years is a good run and I know her time may be near. Any thoughts?

Athena's a good girl

[frorider]

Not a dental vet but just wanted to send vibes. As you said, 12.5 yrs is a good run and you know from similar threads she’s probably experiencing pain even beyond the level indicated by her behavior.

[XXX-er]

hey while you are at it what do you think about a reaction to de-worming meds ?

we got the meds from the vet (Dolpac) we took the dog to the vet, also had a phone consult with another vet and they both say the same thing ... central nervous system impairment

Its a jack russel failing basic motor skills tests and unable to chew/eat her food, the dog is able to and does drink lots of water

the vets are both puzzled and doing some research

[::: :::]

she looks like a good girl

hoping for the best, dude

[babybear]

My 14 or 15 yo dog stopped eating a little earlier this yr and we thought he must be on his last year- but it turns out he just had a bad tooth which was not obvious to us.
as soon as we had the dental work done he was back to his happy, eating self
Hoping it's the same type of situation for Athena
it was almost miraculous the change from one day to the next after the dental work, so hoping it's just that

[DJSapp]

Just got the initial report back from the vet. Teeth looked ok to them. They said we could up the gabapentin and gave us an RX for some kind of canned food for dogs with intestinal issues (Mrs. wasn't specific on what this was on our quick phone call). Upon getting home she gobbled up her dose of that stuff, so that's promising. They're doing blood work to investigate possible organ issues.

I'm happy she's eating something at least.

[dan_pdx]

Vibes man, happy to hear that at least she's eating now. Sending positive thoughts for your girl to recover. Your post hits home because my pooch has arthritis and has been on galliprant for about 2 years, as well as fish oil and supplements (turmeric, chondroitin, etc.), and I know it's only a matter of time...gotta enjoy every minute with the shit-eating little jerk

[schindlerpiste]

+++++VIBES+++++

[Game Over]

😢

[hutash]

Sounds like you are covering the right bases. check up and some blood work is a good start. Switching around pain meds might be an option if all else if good. Seems like sometimes a particular NSAID just doesn't work as well as it used to. There are a few to try, but gallipant would be an obvious choice. Adequan might be another (I have never been impressed by results but my wife claims better results in her patients.) CBD might be an option. No personal expereince (it wasn't legal for most of my career.)

Let me know blood results when you get them.

[DJSapp]

Let me know blood results when you get them.

Blood test is back, she's anemic and has a low platelet count. Vet wants to do an ultrasound to check for tumors and rule that out as the next step.

[Boissal]

Blood test is back, she's anemic and has a low platelet count. Vet wants to do an ultrasound to check for tumors and rule that out as the next step.

My 11 yo black lab had the same symptoms and the blood work came back similar. Vet took the same course of action, ultrasound showed a lymphoma. Nothing to do at that point, she went on for another 6 months with great quality of life. She had a couple of marked declines but both times adjusted to her new condition and continued doing her thing happily.

Hoping your situation is different, vibes!

[DJSapp]

Well, the ultrasound didn't show any tumors or masses, so that's good news? New medication to come

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[GoldMember]

Hope this works out well for you and your pup.

[XXX-er]

" hey while you are at it what do you think about a reaction to de-worming meds ?

we got the meds from the vet (Dolpac) we took the dog to the vet, also had a phone consult with another vet and they both say the same thing ... central nervous system impairment

Its a jack russel failing basic motor skills tests and unable to chew/eat her food, the dog is able to and does drink lots of water

the vets are both puzzled and doing some research "

So we were hoping whatever caused the impairment ^^ would wear off but its got worse, now doggy isnt walking so good, can't work its mouth to eat, can't drink so we are putting soft food & water into the mouth with a syringe, 4 vets including a toxicologist are stumped, trying prednisone ... hope for the best

[Garth Bimble]

Can't add any diagnostic help but ++++vibes+++++ to your baby and you for sticking with her.

She's a cutie and hoping for a positive outcome for both of you...

[DJSapp]

Ok Hutash, I'm home and can post up the full skinny on where we are.

Ultrasound of the abdomen didn't show anything. Vet said to stop carprofen. Increased the gabapentin, starting doxycycline, and starting Prednisone in a couple days. The wet food is royal cabin gastro intestinal low fat.

It seems like they're going for eliminating the nsaids as a potential issue and treating with the antibiotics to shoot at autoimmune issues. Any other thoughts?

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[hutash]

Unless there is more evidence of immune mediated disease I would not be in a rush to pred. If the anemia is severe and there are spherocytes, autoagglutination, etc, then yes pred is a good choice. Still leaves the question as to why the immune disease, and cancer in an old pup is still high on the list. Any other illnesses, vaccinations, etc, recently?

Getting off carprofen is a good start, and while it is one of my favorite drugs, it could be to blame. Galliprant might be a good alternative at this point. Pred has lots of side effects, so not something I would rush to if I can avoid, but we have an adage in vet med that no dog should be allowed to die without the benefits of large doses of steroids. In others, if you have nothing to lose you might as well try it.

[hutash]

" hey while you are at it what do you think about a reaction to de-worming meds ?

we got the meds from the vet (Dolpac) we took the dog to the vet, also had a phone consult with another vet and they both say the same thing ... central nervous system impairment

Its a jack russel failing basic motor skills tests and unable to chew/eat her food, the dog is able to and does drink lots of water

the vets are both puzzled and doing some research "

So we were hoping whatever caused the impairment ^^ would wear off but its got worse, now doggy isnt walking so good, can't work its mouth to eat, can't drink so we are putting soft food & water into the mouth with a syringe, 4 vets including a toxicologist are stumped, trying prednisone ... hope for the best

While any dog or person can have an adverse reaction to any drug, the deworming medications used are extremely safe. Pyrantel has been around since the 50's and I've used buckets of the stuff (literally, there was a time before ivermection that we pumped it into horses.) Praziquantil (sp?) has been around since the 80s and again I have used massive amounts and never a problem. The third ingredient I haven't used much of because we just don't have a whip worm issue here and I am a big believer in not using things that you really don't need to. So, all that said, I doubt the dewormer is the cause.

Since signs are progressing I would be looking for a brain lesion. Cat scan or better yet MRI would be ideal. If you have a neurologist in the area he/she can often localize the problem better based on signs and a few other easy tests.

Of course baseline data is nearly always the first place to start. CBC, chemistry panel, urinalysis, etc. X-ray is not likely to be too helpful, but back in the day it was all we had, so not useless either, it is just that there are better ways to look in the skull these days.

[schindlerpiste]

My brother's 5 year old husky had similar symptoms (i.e. anemia, lethargy, blood in stool, lack of appitite). It turns out that the dog ate either rat poison, or a mouse, who was poisoned. Is it worth mentioning this to your doc.?

[XXX-er]

While any dog or person can have an adverse reaction to any drug, the deworming medications used are extremely safe. Pyrantel has been around since the 50's and I've used buckets of the stuff (literally, there was a time before ivermection that we pumped it into horses.) Praziquantil (sp?) has been around since the 80s and again I have used massive amounts and never a problem. The third ingredient I haven't used much of because we just don't have a whip worm issue here and I am a big believer in not using things that you really don't need to. So, all that said, I doubt the dewormer is the cause.

Since signs are progressing I would be looking for a brain lesion. Cat scan or better yet MRI would be ideal. If you have a neurologist in the area he/she can often localize the problem better based on signs and a few other easy tests.

Of course baseline data is nearly always the first place to start. CBC, chemistry panel, urinalysis, etc. X-ray is not likely to be too helpful, but back in the day it was all we had, so not useless either, it is just that there are better ways to look in the skull these days.

yeah it might be coincidence but this ^^ happened 6-9 hrs after getting the deworming meds from the vet and administering at home, its small town northern BC so not much of anything, the other vet consults are friends from out of town

thanx

[uglymoney]

Vibes on your pup DJ. Reminds me to take my 10 year old for his walk this morning and enjoy every second of being with him.

[hutash]

yeah it might be coincidence but this ^^ happened 6-9 hrs after getting the deworming meds from the vet and administering at home, its small town northern BC so not much of anything, the other vet consults are friends from out of town

thanx

Interesting. Sure does sound suspicious. I don't know how it works in Canukistan, but here this would warrant a call to the tech services for the manufacturer. Talking to their vets can be helpful and also adds to the data base for adverse reactions. I have always had good conversations with them and always surprised how candid they were about problem/potential problems with their products.

Any other information, blood work, symptoms, info? Sounds like a really interesting case. (Its never a good sign when the experts say "humm that's interesting). ��

Good luck

[XXX-er]

doggie is now just sleeping in front of the stove can't eat or drink un assisted, can't walk more than a few steps, hasn't had a shit in more than a day, a very fast deterioration I think the decision is coming soon

[DJSapp]

Unless there is more evidence of immune mediated disease I would not be in a rush to pred. If the anemia is severe and there are spherocytes, autoagglutination, etc, then yes pred is a good choice. Still leaves the question as to why the immune disease, and cancer in an old pup is still high on the list. Any other illnesses, vaccinations, etc, recently?

Getting off carprofen is a good start, and while it is one of my favorite drugs, it could be to blame. Galliprant might be a good alternative at this point. Pred has lots of side effects, so not something I would rush to if I can avoid, but we have an adage in vet med that no dog should be allowed to die without the benefits of large doses of steroids. In others, if you have nothing to lose you might as well try it.

I don't have the details on the CBC. The Mrs. thought the vet was concerned with her weight is and strength loss and that was the reason for the pred. She's normally 56-59 lbs, and she's dropped to 50. There could have been more going on with the blood work. The Mrs. did mention something relating to the liver that was slightly elevated, but within normal range.

No other recent medication change or illness to note. On the cancer subject, the abdominal ultrasound didn't show anything. Heart or lung is still possible since they can't check that with the ut, but the vet thought that was far less likely of a culprit (or at least not likely without other signs).

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