Ikon Pass

[toastybroski]

So many people salty to have crowds half as bad as colorados.

[Danno]

So when doing your economic analysis, don't forget about all the people sitting around the pool in August talking about going to SLC, Jackson and Big Sky that never go.

That's me (without the pool). The only place I've used my pass so far is at Eldora. FML.

[Bunion 2020]

At the end of the season, someone will compile the data and hopefully we will hear about what the increase was in skier numbers at each hill. My guess is that it won't be more than 10-15% over the last five years most places. I think people are blowing the crowded days out of proportion and contributing it to these passes, when really, holidays and weekends have always been busy.

I can only comment about the home area I frequent. Last year on weekdays the parking lots would be around 1/2 full, this season the overflow lots fill by 11:00 on weekdays, every week so far. The holidays we have experienced (x-mas & MLK) have not been much different or worse.

If the ski industry can generate more revenue for these resort towns, then I'd say it is a win. That's something that keeps getting overlooked. Sure, the resorts might make more from their properties and businesses, but the privately owned businesses in these towns will also prosper and I think that is a good thing. It will, over time, generate more tax revenue for the towns and municipalities which will then serve to increase funding for things like better schools, infrastructure, etc. Big picture, I think this whole thing will be a win for many areas. Sorry about your lift lines on a holiday weekend though.

Depends on the area, again at my home hill in Montana we don't have a sales tax. There is a Resort tax for the immediate area that does generate a good chunk of cash for the things you highlight. Downside is water and sewer were already at full capacity, currently all the treated effluents are pumped miles back uphill and sprayed on a couple of areas to treat the formerly black water. We are at full capacity for those areas as well, the other alternative is discharge the treated water into a local river. Just about everyone is currently against that idea even though it has been approved.

A lot of the Collective pass-holders (Ikon/MC) stay in Bozeman so the area doesn't see any appreciable increase in revenues or a bump in resort tax revenues.

The way I view these passes is like an all you can eat Buffet, for every Mr Creosote you have maybe 10 or 100 light eaters and that is how it is suppose to pencil out for the sellers of the pass.

Another thing to consider is if loyal season pass buyers begin to drop off. When I buy my pass (April) I advance the company around $ 1300.00 and if the upcoming season turns out to be a bust that is my loss. If the holders of these passes don't show up because of poor conditions or whatever then the area still has my $$$ to help them get by.

I have no idea how many season passes my area sells but if it is 10K that is 13 million in advance operating capital before a snowflake hits the ground.

[jtran10]

All I can hope is that Alta GM Mike Maughan meant it when he said:

We are pleased to be included in a pass that provides access to the most iconic mountains in North America. We will monitor the impact of our involvement in the Ikon Pass program and make changes if we see significant negative impact on the Alta ski experience.

Yea, loads of negative impact for sure

Word is Alta had a meeting last Saturday about the Ikon. Not sure of any other details, but that's hopefully good news at least.

[ten ply]

For what it's worth, a buddy said he saw his ikon pass ring up as $60 (I forget the exact number.... but in the $50-$70 range) on the ticket seller's screen at Sugarloaf. Doesn't mean it's what Sugarloaf gets from Ikon. Could just be a base rate value they assign in the system, or something else.

I'm super interested in how the pay-out breaks down and appreciate the info and speculation here.

One thought I had is, I wonder if there's a usage scale? Like your first day at a non-Alterra mountain that mountain receives $70, 2nd day $60, 3rd day $50, etc. I'm probably just over-complicating it.

I talked to a director of sales at Max Pass mountain last year, which doesn't own any lodging, and they were super happy with the Max Pass. So, assuming ikon is the same framework, there must be some significant value in redemption for lift usage. That mountain isn't on ikon and they seemed pretty bummed about it.

Does anyone think there will be a "trickle down" benefit for the mom and pop mountains? I'd like to think there will be, but I think it will be disproportionally small compared to the influx at the ikon mountains.

[CountryFunk]

The way I view these passes is like an all you can eat Buffet, for every Mr Creosote you have maybe 10 or 100 light eaters and that is how it is suppose to pencil out for the sellers of the pass.

But, they're wafer-thin ...

[duffski]

I'm sure the ski resorts on these Epic/Ikon/Mountain Collective passes love the ancillary revenue from food and bev sales, not to mention lessons, rentals and lodging. I suppose the resorts can always start jacking up the prices to find out where the price limit is. I'm guessing it's got room to go up, as Americans got lots of discretionary cash in their pockets to spend on vacations, big gas guzzling SUV's and new ski/recreational gear on an annual basis.

I know its got room to go up, as Americans, Canadians, Chinese, Aussies, etc. got lots of debt they can tap to spend on vacations, big gas guzzling SUVs and ski/recreational gear on an annual basis.
There fixed it for you.

[Whiteroom_Guardian]

If my local hill goes unlimited next year there are gonna be some very angry people. Was talking with some people who have been there for 20+ years and that might be the nail in the coffin for them.

Kinda sad if squeeking a few extra bucks out of fair-weather gapers is worth it to drive away people who have spent tens of thousands of dollars over decades at the same hill.

As bunion already said, local people buy the gold pass and will ski whether or not it's a bad snow year. If we have a shit year next season the Ikon people will not come.

[bigdude2468]

At the end of the season, someone will compile the data and hopefully we will hear about what the increase was in skier numbers at each hill. My guess is that it won't be more than 10-15% over the last five years most places. I think people are blowing the crowded days out of proportion and contributing it to these passes, when really, holidays and weekends have always been busy.

If the ski industry can generate more revenue for these resort towns, then I'd say it is a win. That's something that keeps getting overlooked. Sure, the resorts might make more from their properties and businesses, but the privately owned businesses in these towns will also prosper and I think that is a good thing. It will, over time, generate more tax revenue for the towns and municipalities which will then serve to increase funding for things like better schools, infrastructure, etc. Big picture, I think this whole thing will be a win for many areas. Sorry about your lift lines on a holiday weekend though.

Disagree on crowds not being IKON related at least at Alta. Posted elsewhere but a reliable source told me YTD IKON was almost 30% of skiers. When two of the busiest days I have seen in 35 years was last weekend, President's holiday ought to be a "peach"

[EWG]

I can only comment about the home area I frequent. Last year on weekdays the parking lots would be around 1/2 full, this season the overflow lots fill by 11:00 on weekdays, every week so far. The holidays we have experienced (x-mas & MLK) have not been much different or worse.

Yup, that's what happens. We learned that years ago with RMSP+ and the original Epic and the impacts on Eldora. When the only way to ski that mountain was an Eldora pass there was NEVER a parking problem, never lines, etc. Now it's overrun.

The mountains just don't care about local passholders. They just don't. The few hardcores/mags they piss off have zero economic impact compared to the masses they bring in. Eldora is a great test case - they've switched group passes 3 times, but they've never even considered dropping out. We can try to find reasons why these mountains will drop back off, but I don't think they ever will. It's the new normal, and regardless of how true it is, they all think this is what they need to do to survive. If we see an outlier drop off (and Alta's probably the prime candidate) I would expect to see them back with different rules within a year or two.

And yeah, people will point to the benefits of more people spending more money, more lift and infrastructure improvements, more terrain, blah, blah, blah. Yeah, some of that is true, and some of it I enjoy, but I think we'd all chose the way it "was." Sometimes things just get worse, and there's nothing you can do about it.

Maybe it's worse for the hardcores personally and better for skiers generally? Maybe I'm being selfish? I don't know. So if they're gonna screw up my local mountains (I'm a Colorado guy) I'm going to enjoy what is now offered: this year we've skied at Steamboat, Aspen, Aspen Highlands, Snowmass, Copper, Winter Park, Eldora, Alta, Snowbird and heading to Jackson. For a ridiculously pass cost. I'm going to Crested Butte for a few days and that's gonna cost more than half of what my icon cost. Of course people buy them.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em, I guess.

[skaredshtles]

They're all just angling to get purchased. Fluff up the skier numbers, Wall Street gets all excited, and decisions are made as to which resorts to gobble up.

Mark my words.

It ain't gonna work out very well in the end, but that's where it's currently going.

In the meantime, I have way more ski days in Utah this season than at my home mountains.

[406]

They're all just angling to get purchased. Fluff up the skier numbers, Wall Street gets all excited, and decisions are made as to which resorts to gobble up.

I agree, nothing else makes $$$ sense. I always figured high day lift ticket prices were to motivate people to buy stay and ski packages, so they must be loosing a lot of lodging revenue with the Ikon model.

[Duffman]

Disagree on crowds not being IKON related at least at Alta. Posted elsewhere but a reliable source told me YTD IKON was almost 30% of skiers. When two of the busiest days I have seen in 35 years was last weekend, President's holiday ought to be a "peach"

I wonder what percentage were MTN collective last few years. Did the Ikon substantially increase volume over the MC people which was similar but allowed 2 days free then unlimited at 50% off instead of 5 days (since I heard 80% sold were the Ikon base )

I can see how it would if people in CO, Boston, etc got an Ikon in lieu of their local mountains season pass then decided to take an extra trip, but I wonder if this is truly making a massive difference over the collective pass last few years

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

[Parvo]

From today's paper...

Riled locals blame Ikon Pass for resort crowding

Pass accounts for 14 percent of skier days so far this season

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...b365126b0.html

[Danno]

Disagree on crowds not being IKON related at least at Alta. Posted elsewhere but a reliable source told me YTD IKON was almost 30% of skiers. When two of the busiest days I have seen in 35 years was last weekend, President's holiday ought to be a "peach"

I wonder what percentage were MTN collective last few years. Did the Ikon substantially increase volume over the MC people which was similar but allowed 2 days free then unlimited at 50% off instead of 5 days (since I heard 80% sold were the Ikon base )

I can see how it would if people in CO, Boston, etc got an Ikon in lieu of their local mountains season pass then decided to take an extra trip, but I wonder if this is truly making a massive difference over the collective pass last few years

Sent from my Pixel 3 using Tapatalk

I'd also be curious to see how season pass (and other types of passes if they have) plus day ticket sales went. Because I imagine a lot of that 30% isn't people flying in, but locals who figure that they can make do with 5-7 days there, and elsewhere in Utah, plus the opportunity to travel. Those people might have purchased passes before, or maybe they purchased discount options (if there were 4 packs or discount cards or whatever), or maybe they only purchased an occasional day ticket. In any case, I think Ikon passes are not just people flying in, I bet they include a lot of locals too.

[skaredshtles]

I'd also be curious to see how season pass (and other types of passes if they have) plus day ticket sales went. Because I imagine a lot of that 30% isn't people flying in, but locals who figure that they can make do with 5-7 days there, and elsewhere in Utah, plus the opportunity to travel. Those people might have purchased passes before, or maybe they purchased discount options (if there were 4 packs or discount cards or whatever), or maybe they only purchased an occasional day ticket. In any case, I think Ikon passes are not just people flying in, I bet they include a lot of locals too.

I suspect you're right - there are GOBS of "local" people that, realistically, aren't going to ski more than 10 days per season.

[Name Redacted]

From today's paper...

Riled locals blame Ikon Pass for resort crowding

Pass accounts for 14 percent of skier days so far this season

https://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...b365126b0.html

Like I said, between 10 and 15%

People are gonna bitch, but I don't think the difference is that big in reality. However, I do believe that a lot of those skier days are more concentrated than before. Like on weekends, holidays, and powder days. With such a big pool of mountains to choose from, if people base their decisions on who has the best or most snow, then those visits will ruin powder days at the place with the most snow. Saturday powder days have been unmanageable in Summit county for at least a decade because of the Epic pass, but you get out for a Tuesday pow day and you have the place to yourself a lot of times.

It is a work in progress. I am truly interested in seeing the data after this first season and future seasons.

[simple]

Season passes should be $2000

That will solve everything.

[AdironRider]

Sucks that N&G article doesn't break it down, but ask any local and those 14% of visits all just happened in the past month or so. You didn't see a single Ikoner out there in December.

If I had to wager that number is going to end up over 20%, and be more like 25 when it is all said and done.

700k skier visits at Jackson is a massive increase. They just broke 500k for the first time a couple years ago.

[PNWbrit]

Season passes should be $2000

That will solve everything.

It's certainly starting to feel that way.

[ASmileyFace]

I have yet to meet a single employee at Alta that thinks being part of the Ikon is a good thing. God damn is this place overrun now.

[Name Redacted]

What are some of the best resorts or ski areas in the US that are not on one of these passes?

[Danno]

I have yet to meet a single employee at Alta that thinks being part of the Ikon is a good thing. God damn is this place overrun now.

not sure why one would expect line employees to think being busier is better.

[snowaddict91]

I have yet to meet a single employee at Alta that thinks being part of the Ikon is a good thing. God damn is this place overrun now.

Yup, if you thought LCC was a shitshow before Ikon, think again. I can't believe the tram lines I've seen on week days. Been thinking about relocating for a bit and the amount of skier traffic lately may push me over the edge.

Maybe I'd feel differently if I benefitted in any way from the Ikon pass but as someone who lives near the mouth of LCC, skis often, and doesn't want to drive around to BCC every day it just doesn't. All it does is clog up the canyon even more with people that previously went elsewhere. This weekend is going to be an incredible shitshow with this storm coming in. May be a good weekend to work some OT I guess? Or ski somewhere else.

[simple]

What are some of the best resorts or ski areas in the US that are not on one of these passes?

Jay Peak

Mount Baker