"All weather" tires in place of winter tires

[oldblue]

I acknowledged studded tires typically have a little better ice grip (when new) and are good for beginning drivers or those without good winter driving skills.

Still ignoring that studded tech has changed dramatically. Have you looked at a Hakka 8 or 9? Modern factory installed studs are worlds apart from what you seem to be familiar with. They don't wear quickly, nor do they have most of the drawbacks you keep trying to reinsert into the discussion.

I am not trying to convince folks to get studs but your knowledge of stud tech seems very dated.

[XXX-er]

It's my understanding the reason there are no stud holes in an ice radial studless is the design/rubber is too soft to hold a stud and besides if they put studs in them ... They wouldn't be studless

The tire shootout I read put studded & studless up against each other, the studded Haks won the braking on ice test and the tester pointed out its probably becuz they had the most studs per tire

Folks always complain about handling with studs on bare pavement, ime its not becuz of a missing margin of safety, it's cuz you were driving way too fucking fast and I know this cuz as a road warrior I drove my golf too fast in all conditions with hak 1 and 2

[AlpiNord]

My Hakka 9 drive pretty good on all all the non snow here in UT

Same for the Toyo Celsius in CO....wait....there's an inch of snow out there! I better go drive in it before it melts!

How bad do studded tires destroy pavement, driveways, concrete slabs, etc?

[galibier_numero_un]

It's my understanding the reason there are no stud holes in an ice radial studless is the design/rubber is too soft to hold a stud and besides if they put studs in them ... They wouldn't be studless

The tire shootout I read put studded & studless up against each other, the studded Haks won the braking on ice test and the tester pointed out its probably becuz they had the most studs per tire

Folks always complain about handling with studs on bare pavement, ime its not becuz of a missing margin of safety, it's cuz you were driving way too fucking fast

^^^ this ^^^

Aftermarket studding makes no sense to me. It's pretty clear that rubber compounds are optimized for one or another.

Why would anyone expect any Winter based tire to handle as well on dry pavement as a Summer/all-season?

Drive within the design parameters of your gear.

... Thom

[auvgeek]

Still ignoring that studded tech has changed dramatically. Have you looked at a Hakka 8 or 9? Modern factory installed studs are worlds apart from what you seem to be familiar with. They don't wear quickly, nor do they have most of the drawbacks you keep trying to reinsert into the discussion.

Exactly.

There's really no point in comparing the worst studded tires to the best studless. My experience with the Hakka 8 vs non-factory studded tires has been worlds apart in terms of road noise and wear characteristics. I haven't driven a modern studless snow though, so I can't speak to how well they perform in the real world. I do own a modern all-weather 3PMSF-rated tire (Yokohama G015), which can't compete at all with the Hakka 8 on snow and ice. Thom used to own the R2 and now owns the Hakka 9 so maybe if CO gets some decent snow, he can comment. At the least, he can say how much worse the studded tires are on bare pavement.

If you look at the data from tire tests, the top 2-3 studded tires perform significantly better on ice, marginally better on snow, about the same on wet pavement, and marginally worse on dry pavement compared to the top 2-3 studless tires. Personally, I think the ice performance outweighs the minimal drawbacks on dry pavement because it's SO much better. We're talking about stopping 20m shorter on ice vs <1m longer on dry pavement. There's no sense in talking about acceleration or racing up to the ski hill -- anyone who drives in the mountains knows that cornering and braking are where most accidents occur.

Yes, it really would be great if they re-ran the tests after 20k winter miles on the tires. Some studless tires (Blizzak) run a double rubber compound and thus suffer from the same highly nonlinear wear behavior as (older) studded tires.

That said, for many people -- if you commute a long ways daily on dry pavement, commute a long way to the mountains, rarely go to the mountains, etc -- modern studless are very likely a better choice.

FWIW, here are some more recent data. Will be curious to see the 2017 tests with the new Hakka 9.
Studded: http://www.laneks.lv/en/tests/read/TM-2016-win1.html
Studless: http://www.laneks.lv/en/tests/read/TM-2016-win2.html

[Chugachjed]

I've noticed that up here in the narth with 5 months of winter even people one would label as clueless looking ... will run studs

you can check out 15 yr old Sunfires at the mall and they are running studded tires worth more than the car

How much is yer life worth?

+1000000 come to Alaska where there’s ice and snow from sept/October to April and sometimes May and see how many people are running studs vs non studded.

I’ve delivered pizzas in the winter in a 2wd ford ranger and bald all seasons and driven through passes in the same vehicle but that don’t mean shit for an average winter driver.

[XXX-er]

which does not mean its a good idea, I mean didn't yall vote for trump?

[Chugachjed]

Definitely not a good idea and I didn’t vote for that retard. I was just saying a skillful winter driver can make it work with whatever but why?

And a 21 year old from anchorage has more winter driving experience than aweshuksan has in 35 years in WA.

[XXX-er]

how cold ? cuz traction increases as the temps go down so if its -30 or 40 C you will have a fair amount of traction while snow at around freezing or 0C is the most slippery

Ok then how about sarah palin ?

[auvgeek]

Somewhere up in this thread, @auvgeek recounted a conversation with the Nokian rep where he learned that their studded Hakka 8's (current model at the time) had a harder, longer wearing rubber and that it was a better solution for places you wouldn't expect them to be (i.e. lots of warm weather down in the flats) and of course, better where you would expect them to be.

This debate has gathered more attention so I dug up the original video so you can all draw your own conclusions instead of relying on my interpretation. The Nokian rep specifically states 5%-10% longer wear with Hakka 8 vs R2, but does not give a temperature range associated with it. Obviously one should take anything a rep says with a grain of salt, but I don't see an obvious source of bias in the video since Nokian makes excellent studded and studless tires that cost about the same.



Here's a separate video on the Hakka 9. They address the issue of stud retention, though you obviously have to take it with a grain of salt since it's rep promoting a new product.


Interestingly, one of the youtube comments said the new studs on the Hakka 9 are louder than the Hakka 8.

[Shredhead]

Wow, the 8’s are loud.

[Chugachjed]

how cold ? cuz traction increases as the temps go down so if its -30 or 40 C you will have a fair amount of traction while snow at around freezing or 0C is the most slippery

Ok then how about sarah palin ?

Didn't vote palin either. It's pretty temperate around here I don't know your C scale very well but its around 15F-35F most of the winter here.

[Yukonrider]

Sorry to distract from the studs VS studless dead horse beatathon...

But does anyone have any experience with snow tires for trucks? Ideally load range E. The Blizzaks on my truck are at 50%, and its time for new ones.

[Garth Bimble]

I just took off a set of WR3's that had 30K on them and had worn down to the indicators with Toyo Celsius. Hopefully they're better. Very disappointed with the Nokes.

[Chugachjed]

Sorry to distract from the studs VS studless dead horse beatathon...

But does anyone have any experience with snow tires for trucks? Ideally load range E. The Blizzaks on my truck are at 50%, and its time for new ones.

I’ve had great luck with Nokian lt2.

[MakersTeleMark]

But does anyone have any experience with snow tires for trucks? Ideally load range E.

I like Cooper M+S. I have them in that range and they work and hold up great.

[XXX-er]

Sorry to distract from the studs VS studless dead horse beatathon...

But does anyone have any experience with snow tires for trucks? Ideally load range E. The Blizzaks on my truck are at 50%, and its time for new ones.

10 ply studded Haks ... simply zee best

[klauss]

I just took off a set of WR3's that had 30K on them and had worn down to the indicators with Toyo Celsius. Hopefully they're better. Very disappointed with the Nokes.

30k is pretty low for those, but I guess I could see it happening. I once got 25k out of a set of og BFG AT. soured me on the brand fro awhile.

Besides my disdain / phobia of nano particulate pollution caused by studs in my dog walking / running zone, the hakka 9 has to be the best snow / ice tool out there. But alas a thread on All-weather snow rated tires turns to a studs vs. non studded tire debate.

[oldblue]

I like Cooper M+S. I have them in that range and they work and hold up great.

I've run those as well, agree they are pretty durable but as a snow/ice tire I find their performance to be unimpressive. In LR E you don't have a ton of options and I'm not sure any are going to be great on ice, since they have to hold up to the stresses of 1-ton pickups.

I'd go Hakka LT2 if I had to but would like to see Nokian update that tire, it's been around for a while.

And yeah...def some thread drift here, pretty sure we have other threads for this.

[oldblue]

I just took off a set of WR3's that had 30K on them and had worn down to the indicators with Toyo Celsius. Hopefully they're better. Very disappointed with the Nokes.

Ran the original WR's back in the day, and yeah, they wore fast and weren't amazing in the winter. Having long life, resistant to high temps yet pliable for low temps is a lot to expect out of a tire. I kind of look at the 4 season tires like hybrid bicycles...they are pretty lousy at everything, but for some people/situations they work.

[Garth Bimble]

Ran the original WR's back in the day, and yeah, they wore fast and weren't amazing in the winter. Having long life, resistant to high temps yet pliable for low temps is a lot to expect out of a tire. I kind of look at the 4 season tires like hybrid bicycles...they are pretty lousy at everything, but for some people/situations they work.

The guy at the tire shop told me they're getting a lot of the Nokian WRG's back with early wear. I understand they're a softer compound and I don't expect them to last as long as a conventional tire but why put a 60K warranty on the things if you know they'll never make it. I was told I might get some credit back on them but I'm not holding my breath.

[Yukonrider]

I’ve had great luck with Nokian lt2.

You ever run a passenger snow? Wondering how the LT2 would compare traction wise to my current Blizzaks. Looks like it has a lot less siping than other offerings, but still more than the Winterforce LT (the only other option AFAIK).

Also how do they wear? The tires could see a lot of dry pavement with loads. Currently use a non snow LT tire that is wearing like iron, but definitely lacking in snow performance.

[anotherVTskibum]

You ever run a passenger snow? Wondering how the LT2 would compare traction wise to my current Blizzaks. Looks like it has a lot less siping than other offerings, but still more than the Winterforce LT (the only other option AFAIK).

Also how do they wear? The tires could see a lot of dry pavement with loads. Currently use a non snow LT tire that is wearing like iron, but definitely lacking in snow performance.

Continuing the thread drift, but I've been very happy with LT2s on my F-150; they behave very similarly to the P-metric Hakkas I had on my Suburban back in Vermont: damned good snow and ice traction, and incredible feedback (which, for me, is the biggest criteria—I'll give up a little absolute traction for better feedback about how close I am to loosing it). For a truck that's incredibly front-biased in terms of weight, it does great on packed snow and ice. I haven't had the Hakkas in deep snow yet, but in 6-12" they do well. Only a few thousand miles on them so I can't comment on wear.

The one good comparison of pickup-truck snow tires I've seen (at https://www.equipmentworld.com/snow-tire-shootout-16/) only tested a few tires, but the Blizzard W965 came out on top. Unfortunately, it's not available in 18" sizes and I couldn't find a decent price on used 17" rims, so I went with the studded LT2s. I kinda wish I had spent the coin on the Rotiva AT instead of putting cheap AT tires on to begin with, as I'd love to have that comparison point, but I wasn't planning to buy ATs until next summer...until I cut a sidewall on the OEM Goodyear HTs under 1500 miles into owning the truck.

[TAFKALVS]

Sorry to distract from the studs VS studless dead horse beatathon...

But does anyone have any experience with snow tires for trucks? Ideally load range E. The Blizzaks on my truck are at 50%, and its time for new ones.

Around here for Load Range E, it's either Duratrac or BFG K02. I personally like the Duratrac have run a variety of size on different trucks/suvs and haven't been let down. I had a bad experience with K02 but other people seem to like them so YMMV.

[auvgeek]

The one good comparison of pickup-truck snow tires I've seen (at https://www.equipmentworld.com/snow-tire-shootout-16/) only tested a few tires, but the Blizzard W965 came out on top. .

Looks like the tested LT2 wasn't studded.