where do these sexual assault people come from?

[wooley12]

Nor what they "know." But your point is valid: giving the benefit of the doubt is increasingly hazardous. Moreso for whoever does it last, I guess.

I'm guilty. Case in point relative to a post above. Lady in the lift line says "Anyone a single". "I say I'm not single but I could be". She was insulted. To me it was funny because I know that I am one of the most 'married" men that there is. She took it as a perv move and rightly so. As I age into becoming the debonair raconteur, I need to adjust to these times. Not past times.

So is this a perv song? I don't recall it being seen as that by anyone at the time.

[flyandski365]

jesus i don't know why this didn't occur to me. i hardly talk to anybody on the lift. totally predictable and horrible.

From what my GF tells me, this is the most common type of incident she's experienced (not ski lift specific) and it happens all the time. Just the other day she was walking out of a grocery store and two guys in a truck leered and honked at her. She flipped them the bird and he the driver proceeded to whip his truck around to where she was parked and verbally assault her as she was getting into her car. How dare she stand up to him or rebuff his "compliment"?!

Which gets to something I think a lot of men don't get. I think it was Propublica a while back that did a piece on catcalling, and a lot of the guys they interviewed seemed genuinely miffed that the women they were harassing didn't want the attention. Ego seemed to have a lot to do with it - they have so little self awareness that they can't conceive of a situation in which their attentions aren't welcome, and any indication of that really tends to piss them off.

[mtngirl79]

As men I think we need to make a better effort to absolutely make it clear that we won't tolerate sexual harassment, assault or even "jokes" about it. Billy Bush should have shut down Trump's "grab them by the pussy" comment, but instead he egged him on and that gives tacit approval to the assaulter. This kind of thing is not a joke.

Thank you.

[neck beard]

As men I think we need to make a better effort to absolutely make it clear that we won't tolerate sexual harassment, assault or even "jokes" about it.

Then the entire porn industry has to go.

See the problem?

Its endemic. From movies to advertising to porn to the president.

[The AD]

Then the entire porn industry has to go.

Is sexual assault porn a thing? In most porn I've seen the woman has been a willing participant.

[neck beard]

I'm not referring to the participants.

I'm referring to the endemic objectification of women in media and culture.

If we want to "...absolutely make it clear that we won't tolerate sexual harassment, assault or even "jokes" about it..." then a lot has to change in the background media and culture. Things that most men tacitly accept as normal.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just noting that the problem runs incredibly deep and long in our societies.

[The AD]

When the Trump comments came out those defending him claimed it was just "locker room talk" and there's a degree of truth to that. I don't think that kind of talk is normal, but I bet most of us have known someone who we could see making comments like Trump's. My experience has been that most men don't come right out and tell these kinds of people that they are sick fucks, and they should.

[neck beard]

They should. But objectification of women is so pervasive and so subtle and so normal in commerce, art, media, culture, for so long....

I'll get accused of projecting here, but I honestly wonder if a significant percentage of everyday of men are suppressed internally conflicted wanna-be pussy grabbers. And porn gives them an outlet, because in the real world, you need consent.

[mtngirl79]

I'm not referring to the participants.

I'm referring to the endemic objectification of women in media and culture.

If we want to "...absolutely make it clear that we won't tolerate sexual harassment, assault or even "jokes" about it..." then a lot has to change in the background media and culture. Things that most men tacitly accept as normal.

I'm not disagreeing with you. Just noting that the problem runs incredibly deep and long in our societies.

This is true.. but porn isn't going away. With the internet, pitn has become very accessible and much more socially acceptable.

It's super difficult to get people to understand it's implications.

I'm pretty sure it's tied to our puritan roots and our culture difficulty with separating sexuality and nudity, especially when it comes to women and girls.

[KQ]

When the Trump comments came out those defending him claimed it was just "locker room talk" and there's a degree of truth to that. I don't think that kind of talk is normal, but I bet most of us have known someone who we could see making comments like Trump's. My experience has been that most men don't come right out and tell these kinds of people that they are sick fucks, and they should.

It's hard to stand up and call someone out for anything. It makes people uncomfortable. Case in point: One time I was in the elevator at the Camlin Hotel in Seattle heading up to the Cloud Room,* a historical/landmark hotel/lounge in Seattle. It is on the National Historic Register. I was with a GF and there were two maybe three other people in the elevator with us. One of the other people pulled out a bumper sticker, peeled off the backing and stuck it to the wall of the old wooden elevator. I called them out and told them their vandalism sucked. My GF called me out for being a bitch and said I was the embarrassment.

No it wasn't sexual harassment but it was calling someone out for behaving badly and look what other's reaction was to me speaking up.


* The Cloud Room
In the ensuing years, the Cloud Room hosted numerous famous faces, among them Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Elvis Presley, Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, Bonnie Raitt, John Lee Hooker, and Elvis Costello. The Cloud Room had the smoky atmosphere of a speakeasy, with the comforts of a four star restaurant. Live entertainment was the main idea, and several acts got their start there.

With the recent purchase of the hotel by Trendwest, the Cloud Room was closed and replaced by penthouse units. It can still be seen in the film The Fabulous Baker Boys, (although it was not, as is commonly rumored, the location of the famous scene where Michelle Pfeiffer sings the song Makin' Whoopee while sitting on a piano. That scene was filmed in the Crystal Ballroom of the Biltmore Hotel in Los Angeles).

[mtngirl79]

Somewhere there is an awesome video with a camera hidden in cleavage getting all the pres faces as they sneak their peeks.

Also, what do you all think "show us your tits" is?

[Dexter Rutecki]

Here's my two cents on this and its backed by a good friend who I would say is a very recognizable B lister in Hollywood who has hooked up with many A listers. Before any of these stories came out, she shared that this whole masturbation thing was a trend she experienced.

See, that is just...I don't even know what to say. The idea that that is 'a thing' just leaves me baffled. And brings me back to 'where do these people come from.' Even if you have the urge to do it, it's just hard to imagine feeling so distant from any normal social constraints that you would even start down that road (and I know, some of these guys are powerful guys and feel liberated from the normal rules, but I have also heard that there are plenty of relatively powerless men who behave the same way).

I did see a doctor on TV last night who made the point that there are men out there who know they have these kinds of compulsions, and it would be helpful to everyone if we made it easier for them to 'come out' and seek help (I think he was referring specifically to young men who know they have an issue and haven't acted on it yet). On the one hand I instinctively just want to offer a severe beating to these kinds of people, but on the other it obviously could be better to make them feel more comfortable seeking treatment. I have heard that a lot of compulsive behaviors can actually be treated.

And now there are these hypocritical Bible thumpers in AL about to elect a sexual predator to the Senate. Ahhh, southern Republicans...

[spindrift]

Then the entire porn industry has to go.

See the problem?

Its endemic. From movies to advertising to porn to the president.

...to Part 2.

Contemplate the message broadcast to half our prospective members by most of that thread. And what it says about the local attitude. Talk about objectification. Does anyone not see a connection?

[neck beard]

This is true.. but porn isn't going away. With the internet, pitn has become very accessible and much more socially acceptable.

It's super difficult to get people to understand it's implications.

I'm pretty sure it's tied to our puritan roots and our culture difficulty with separating sexuality and nudity, especially when it comes to women and girls.

Correct. It will never go away. It is booming. The only thing left is to work with it for something good where possible. Perhaps that is to use it to break down the things like you say: "puritan roots and our culture difficulty with separating sexuality and nudity".

Imagine a really far-fetched and hypothetical world where sexuality and, well, sex, was so normal and comfortable (via internet pron ubiquity??!) that objectification of women no longer had any value. Sooner or later, against the tidal wave of internet porn, parents and society may have to educate their kids along the lines of "its just sex, in any imaginable form, get over it, no big deal. All that matters is respect and consent."

Humans, particularly men, need to evolve. Internet porn might promote that? Dunno.

Sex will never go away. Best to start managing its role in society.

What will be harder to change is how men use their power over vulnerable people, mostly women. Sex is just tool.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Then the entire porn industry has to go.

See the problem?

Its endemic. From movies to advertising to porn to the president.

I agree that objectification is endemic (and AFAIK in porn men are also objectified--nature of the beast, I think), but is the entire porn industry really built on harassment and assault? I'm asking because I legitimately can't make that judgment myself. At least the portrayal, to me, typically seems to be based on mutual consent (but I am hardly qualified to say anything about what passes for 'normal' in the world of porn).

[neck beard]

...to Part 2.

Yep.

But damn, some of those girls in those photos! /Cognitivedissonance.

[mtngirl79]

...to Part 2.

Contemplate the message broadcast to half our prospective members by most of that thread. And what it says about the local attitude. Talk about objectification. Does anyone not see a connection?

And how many pictures are posted in your plea to ullr thread where it is obvious the subject didn't know she was being photographed? And how does the collective react?

I'm pretty sure I "cunted" that thread up over that once.

How many of the other pictures were allowed to be taken under the assumption that they would be kept private?

We will never know, but I don't know many women who would want naked pictures of themselves on TGR.

[cloudpeak]

I agree that objectification is endemic (and AFAIK in porn men are also objectified--nature of the beast, I think), but is the entire porn industry really built on harassment and assault? I'm asking because I legitimately can't make that judgment myself. At least the portrayal, to me, typically seems to be based on mutual consent (but I am hardly qualified to say anything about what passes for 'normal' in the world of porn).

I could be mistaken, but I think neck beard was saying that porn leads to people thinking objectification of women in the real world is acceptable and the norm.

[Marshall Tucker]

I'm completely with ya dex. in fact, I never "got" what is commonly now called bullying. Never got poeple who couldn't have a good day unless someone else had a bad day. Just fucking with someone for no reason. like a while back I was asked on a guys golf trip. the first night the guy putting it together was like "lets go put a porn magazine, open open bottle of lube, next to joe while he's sleeping take pictures" like he'd passed out jerking off. I remember replying "why? why would I want to do that?" it was an honest question.

I wasn't asked to go on that trip again. edit oh wow, mtngirl's back. NTTAWWI.

[Dexter Rutecki]

And how many pictures are posted in your plea to ullr thread where it is obvious the subject didn't know she was being photographed? And how does the collective react?

I'm pretty sure I "cunted" that thread up over that once.

How many of the other pictures were allowed to be taken under the assumption that they would be kept private?

We will never know, but I don't know many women who would want naked pictures of themselves on TGR.

I'm pretty sure at least some of those photos, from what I recall, were of women who very clearly knew they were being photographed. I think some even had stickers or something that to me implied they knew where the photos would end up.

Were there women in that thread who didn't know they were being photographed? I actually couldn't say. Haven't seen it for quite some time, but I don't remember noticing that some of the photos had been taken surreptitiously. Maybe I should have. If they were then I think in some places that might represent a crime, these days.

[neck beard]

but is the entire porn industry really built on harassment and assault?

Lets assume for the moment that it is 100% not built on harassment and assault (I'm not forming an opinion either way). It still doesn't matter - as it conditions men and boys to see women as fuck objects, and sexual gratification as something they deserve immediately. And some take that into the streets.

edit: what cloudpeak said.

A corollary is that it is also conditioning future male generations to be so comfortable with seeing erect ejaculating dicks (and masturbating watching them) that some people predict a sharp rise in male bisexuality in the future.....

[Dexter Rutecki]

I could be mistaken, but I think neck beard was saying that porn leads to people thinking objectification of women in the real world is acceptable and the norm.

Right, I could see that. It does bring us back to the very old argument of whether or not TV, video games, porn, etc. encourage behavior that they depict. Again, I don't know the answer. I doubt anyone could make a blanket judgment about 'porn' given how much of it is out there (and while it's pretty clear in most cases, even the definition of porn can be tough--is a movie like '9 and 1/2 Weeks' porn? Is the 50 Shades book porn?).

[mtngirl79]

Correct. It will never go away. It is booming. The only thing left is to work with it for something good where possible. Perhaps that is to use it to break down the things like you say: "puritan roots and our culture difficulty with separating sexuality and nudity".

Imagine a really far-fetched and hypothetical world where sexuality and, well, sex, was so normal and comfortable (via internet pron ubiquity??!) that objectification of women no longer had any value. Sooner or later, against the tidal wave of internet porn, parents and society may have to educate their kids along the lines of "its just sex, in any imaginable form, get over it, no big deal. All that matters is respect and consent."

Humans, particularly men, need to evolve. Internet porn might promote that? Dunno.

Sex will never go away. Best to start managing its role in society.

What will be harder to change is how men use their power over vulnerable people, mostly women. Sex is just tool.

I think it's a matter of removing the idea that women's body's are "for sex".

That's what I was getting at about dress codes.

We need more tolerance for nudity and less tolerance for porn.

I bet a lot of people here won't get the difference.

[Dexter Rutecki]

Lets assume for the moment that it is 100% not built on harassment and assault (I'm not forming an opinion either way). It still doesn't matter - as it conditions men and boys to see women as fuck objects, and sexual gratification as something they deserve immediately. And some take that into the streets.

edit: what cloudpeak said.

A corollary is that it is also conditioning future male generations to be so comfortable with seeing erect ejaculating dicks (and masturbating watching them) that some people predict a sharp rise in male bisexuality in the future.....

OK, I kind of addressed the first paragraph while you were posting, I guess...but a rise in male bisexuality?? What? I'm pretty sure I could have watched porn 24/7 growing up and still would not have had any desire for a sexual encounter with another dude. To me that would be like saying that if you show a gay guy enough nude women he would be willing to give girls a try. I have some trouble believing that.

[mtngirl79]

I'm pretty sure at least some of those photos, from what I recall, were of women who very clearly knew they were being photographed. I think some even had stickers or something that to me implied they knew where the photos would end up.

Were there women in that thread who didn't know they were being photographed? I actually couldn't say. Haven't seen it for quite some time, but I don't remember noticing that some of the photos had been taken surreptitiously. Maybe I should have. If they were then I think in some places that might represent a crime, these days.

The sticker pictures are a minority... and if there is a reasonable likelihood some of the pictures are not consensual is it ok to allow it?